Official Mass Shooting & Suicide Bomber thread

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2012-12-18 10:35:04

#376

KEN-JENNINGS: I am all that is MOD!; +2,978|6847|949

west-phoenix-az wrote:
KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
Haha I forgot, CC holders are all super former delta sqaud Chuck Norris clones, lying in wait until the most opportune time to rescue the PEOPLE from the evil mentally ill shooters.
Why do you think some nutjob with no training can be so effective in a mass shooting, but joe blow carrying a gun can't be effective at stopping the nutjob because he doesn't have extensive training? Joe blow with a gun is better then nothing when shit pops off. Cops are only minutes away when seconds count and we've seen how bad of a shot many of them are when they finally do show up.

Spoiler (highlight to read):
i carry a gun because a cop is too heavy

Because most of the time the mass shooter is spray and praying, not meticulously sniping off strangers. Joe Blow isn't always betteer than nothing - Joe Blow could shoot innocent people, get shot by the cops, get shot by other unsuspecting Joe Blows....

Carrying a concealed weapon in public doesn't make you a hero. Carrying a concealed weapon in public could possibly make you a hero, could make you a murderer, or could make you an unfortunate victim. Carrying a concealed weapon with the rationale "I'd rather have it if I need it than not have it when I need it" is comparable statistically to wearing a helmet outside because you are afraid of falling down and cracking your skull open.

2012-12-18 10:41:22

#377

M.O.A.B: 'Light 'em up!'; +1,220|6438|Escea

(HUN)Rudebwoy wrote:
Breivik was found to be sane.

This is why it can't just be about improving help for the mentally ill. People like Brevik and the guys who carried out the Mumbai attacks are wackos but not necessarily mentally ill individuals. They could clear the checks and have unbelievably easy access to better weapons and gear than you'd get in some armies. I'm actually amazed there hasn't yet been a Mumbai-style attack in the U.S carried out by sympathisers of some fundamentalist cause.

You had 168 deaths to 11 attackers in Mumbai. That's an average of 15 per shooter in an attack that lasted three days. Two U.S. shooters, Cho (who was only armed with pistols) and Lanza, racked up nearly a third of the Mumbai bodycount in a span of hours and minutes.

Look at the pair in the Hollywood shootout as well. Full body armour, practically unstoppable, armour piercing rounds, automatic weapons, drum magazines. They walked through dozens and dozens of cops with pistols, the same weapons you'd encounter on armed civilians, and they couldn't stop them until a stoppage took one of their rifles out of the game and the other ran out of ammo and encountered a SWAT team. These men weren't mentally ill but methodical and cold bank robbers. Holmes was tricked out in body armour as well, and as tweaked as he appears to be, his planning was still intricate. In fact the only reason he was identified as not being a part of a SWAT team was that his gas mask was different to that issued. In the face of people like this, carrying a pistol will be of little deterrent and your average gun owner is likely to add to the carnage instead of stopping it. These people are prepped for the action, your average Joe isn't.

You have to restrict access to longs, high-cap mags and ammunition designed for the battlefield. They have no place in a civilian environment. Period.

Last edited by M.O.A.B (2012-12-18 10:43:02)

2012-12-18 12:19:21

#378

pirana6: Go Cougs!; +691|6506|Washington St.

not sure which thread this will garner the most talk but maybe the issue (as MANY have said before) is, it's not guns we should be discussing, it's mental health.

2012-12-18 12:27:01

#379

m3thod: All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz; +2,197|6886|UK

odb wrote:
ch-ch-blaow, Blaow, Blaow, Blaow

Last edited by m3thod (2012-12-18 12:27:58)

Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.

2012-12-18 12:27:49

#380

west-phoenix-az: Guns don't kill people. . . joe bidens advice does; +632|6604

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
Joe Blow isn't always betteer than nothing - Joe Blow could shoot innocent people

and the police are better?

LINK

The police commissioner, Raymond W. Kelly, confirmed on Saturday that all nine [innocent bystanders] were wounded by police bullets .....

There is no national data on how often bystanders are struck by police bullets; Geoffrey P. Alpert, a criminologist at the University of South Carolina and an expert on the police use of force, said that hitting innocent civilians “doesn’t happen very often, but it happens.”

He added: “The rule of thumb is that you do not put civilians in the line of fire, but the rule of thumb is also that you don’t let a murderer get away.”

In many police shootings, stray shots are almost inevitable; a study based on New York’s annual firearms discharge reports indicated that officers hit their targets 34 percent of the time.

I don't think joe blow and a cop would act much different in the same situation (active shooter). See if you can take a shot without hitting bystander(s). Move to a better spot if needed and possible. If that is not a option you have to decide whats worse, take the shot and risk hitting a bystander, not take the shot and let the shooter continue to shoot more people, or attempt to disable the shooter in another way and possibly fail.
What do you think the average street cop is going to do?
We've already seen what the NYPD professionals did. They took the shots and hit 9 innocent bystanders. In the 2005 Harlem shooting also mentioned in the article they fired when a mother was playing with her 17-month old child. The mother was hit. If either of those were Joe Blow doing the shooting he'd probably be in jail or prison, even though both Joe Blow and the cops had the same goal, stop the threat.

The faster the shooter is taken down, out, or distracted the better for everyone. But stupid people will continue to believe its better just to wait 5-10 minutes for the police to show up and who knows how many more will die during that time and what will happen when the police finally show up. There's still no guarantee bystanders will not be shot by police.

https://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p123/west-phoenix-az/BF2S/bf2s_sig_9mmbrass.jpg

2012-12-18 12:29:51

#381

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5573|London, England

I would like to see cops thrown in jail for fucking up more often. 9.9 times out of 10 they just get a paid vacation until the story blows over

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2012-12-18 12:47:31

#382

KEN-JENNINGS: I am all that is MOD!; +2,978|6847|949

west-phoenix-az wrote:
KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
Joe Blow isn't always betteer than nothing - Joe Blow could shoot innocent people
and the police are better?
LINK

The police commissioner, Raymond W. Kelly, confirmed on Saturday that all nine [innocent bystanders] were wounded by police bullets .....

There is no national data on how often bystanders are struck by police bullets; Geoffrey P. Alpert, a criminologist at the University of South Carolina and an expert on the police use of force, said that hitting innocent civilians “doesn’t happen very often, but it happens.”

He added: “The rule of thumb is that you do not put civilians in the line of fire, but the rule of thumb is also that you don’t let a murderer get away.”

In many police shootings, stray shots are almost inevitable; a study based on New York’s annual firearms discharge reports indicated that officers hit their targets 34 percent of the time.
I don't think joe blow and a cop would act much different in the same situation (active shooter). See if you can take a shot without hitting bystander(s). Move to a better spot if needed and possible. If that is not a option you have to decide whats worse, take the shot and risk hitting a bystander, not take the shot and let the shooter continue to shoot more people, or attempt to disable the shooter in another way and possibly fail.
What do you think the average street cop is going to do?
We've already seen what the NYPD professionals did. They took the shots and hit 9 innocent bystanders. In the 2005 Harlem shooting also mentioned in the article they fired when a mother was playing with her 17-month old child. The mother was hit. If either of those were Joe Blow doing the shooting he'd probably be in jail or prison, even though both Joe Blow and the cops had the same goal, stop the threat.

Cool story, dude. You're trying to argue against a point I didn't make. You don't think Joe Blow and a cop would act much different - I do. Police go through training to deal with high-pressure situations - not all Joe Blows do. A lot of cops need to go to the range more to become better shots - I don't disagree with that. You like to pretend a guy will act a certain way in a high pressure situation - guess what? It's more likely that without specific training to mentally process what happens in high pressure situations, Joe Blow isn't going to be as effective as someone that has. That's one reason police and military go through exercises instead of the government picking up anyone who wants to prance around with a weapon off the streets. If every person that wants to carry a gun in public is forced to go through the sort of training that police and military go through, I would support it 100%. But they aren't. And gun nuts will well, go nuts if legislation like that was proposed.

west-phoenix-az wrote:
The faster the shooter is taken down, out, or distracted the better for everyone. But stupid people will continue to believe its better just to wait 5-10 minutes for the police to show up and who knows how many more will die during that time and what will happen when the police finally show up. There's still no guarantee bystanders will not be shot by police.

Yeah, the faster the shooter is taken down or out or distracted, the better - duh. The difference is you think for some odd reason every man out there is Jon J Rambo able to engage and dodge and process the environment in milliseconds, waiting for the perfect opportunity to strike! Boom! Headshot, tango down! If a random hero wants to play random hero and distract a shooter, go for it. But lets not pretend random hero is going to go all Bourne Identity and save the day - it's just not likely. Sure, it happens, it's just not likely.

2012-12-18 13:06:21

#383

west-phoenix-az: Guns don't kill people. . . joe bidens advice does; +632|6604

west-phoenix-az wrote:

Spoiler (highlight to read):
there are plenty of stories of average people using guns to save themselves or others from armed criminals
it doesnt take a super former delta squad, chuck norris clone, or a Jon J Rambo

Last edited by west-phoenix-az (2012-12-18 13:26:46)

2012-12-18 13:16:41

#384

(HUN)Rudebwoy: Member; +45|6970

M.O.A.B wrote:
Wall of Text.

Sorry I didnt post the quote I was responding to and made you write all that.
I was just reacting to this statement, nothing more:

rdx-fx wrote:
In logical form;
All mentally ill people are not mass murderers, all mass murderers are mentally ill.

2012-12-18 13:39:37

#385

M.O.A.B: 'Light 'em up!'; +1,220|6438|Escea

(HUN)Rudebwoy wrote:
M.O.A.B wrote:
Wall of Text.
Sorry I didnt post the quote I was responding to and made you write all that.
I was just reacting to this statement, nothing more:
rdx-fx wrote:
In logical form;
All mentally ill people are not mass murderers, all mass murderers are mentally ill.

No bother .

2012-12-18 15:02:25

#386

KEN-JENNINGS: I am all that is MOD!; +2,978|6847|949

west-phoenix-az wrote:
west-phoenix-az wrote:
Spoiler (highlight to read):
there are plenty of stories of average people using guns to save themselves or others from armed criminals
it doesnt take a super former delta squad, chuck norris clone, or a Jon J Rambo

mass shooters =/= average guy popping off at cletus the slack-jawed criminal. It's not the same argument.

2012-12-18 16:31:05

#387

Jaekus: I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose; +957|5393|Sydney

pirana6 wrote:
not sure which thread this will garner the most talk but maybe the issue (as MANY have said before) is, it's not guns we should be discussing, it's mental health.

http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pi … 2#p3855522

2012-12-19 00:29:28

#388

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,813|6321|eXtreme to the maX

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
Yeah, the faster the shooter is taken down or out or distracted, the better - duh. The difference is you think for some odd reason every man out there is Jon J Rambo able to engage and dodge and process the environment in milliseconds, waiting for the perfect opportunity to strike! Boom! Headshot, tango down! If a random hero wants to play random hero and distract a shooter, go for it. But lets not pretend random hero is going to go all Bourne Identity and save the day - it's just not likely. Sure, it happens, it's just not likely.

In my experience competitive shooters with years of practice turn to jelly if you put $10 on the table. What would happen to the average wannabe in a gunfight I don't like to think.

Police and ex-military uniformly suck from what I've seen - and I've seen a lot. For some reason they seem to think they've had all the training they need in a week and a few hours practice a year will keep them in trim.

Fuck Israel

2012-12-19 00:42:26

#389

1stSFOD-Delta: Mike "The Spooge Gobbler" Morales; +376|6193|Blue Mountain State

Dilbert_X wrote:
Police and ex-military uniformly suck from what I've seen - and I've seen a lot. For some reason they seem to think they've had all the training they need in a week and a few hours practice a year will keep them in trim.

I'll actually agree with this.

I'm one of maybe four guys in the platoon that shoots a lot when not at work.

https://www.itwirx.com/other/hksignature.jpg

Baba Booey

2012-12-19 00:50:52

#390

1stSFOD-Delta: Mike "The Spooge Gobbler" Morales; +376|6193|Blue Mountain State

Fuck the only time I really get to shoot handguns is when I come home on leave.

About two weeks of straight shooting then about a nice five to six month period where I don't even touch a handgun till the next block of leave.

I've been home for three days and have already put 700 rounds through the USP.

Last edited by 1stSFOD-Delta (2012-12-19 01:07:08)

Baba Booey

2012-12-19 00:56:18

#391

unnamednewbie13: Moderator; +2,053|6987|PNW

There's a nice outdoor range several miles out, but I cba to drive to it most of the time. Since I can't stand my mouth tasting like a smoking barrel, I avoid the indoor ranges. Target shooting is expensive and not really that much fun. I do it to maintain my aim and give me more of a reason to regularly clean the guns rather than to sling bullets around "just because." And then I pack them up and head to the bow range when I want to relax.

But for all that, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to be accurate on the first few shots in a firefight. Nerves.

2012-12-19 06:36:26

#392

M.O.A.B: 'Light 'em up!'; +1,220|6438|Escea

I remember reading about the Delta guys with their shooting drills and how they were switching mags and racking slides so often their thumbs were bleeding, and they were running an insane amount of rounds through their barrels.

2012-12-19 07:38:40

#393

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5573|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:
KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
Yeah, the faster the shooter is taken down or out or distracted, the better - duh. The difference is you think for some odd reason every man out there is Jon J Rambo able to engage and dodge and process the environment in milliseconds, waiting for the perfect opportunity to strike! Boom! Headshot, tango down! If a random hero wants to play random hero and distract a shooter, go for it. But lets not pretend random hero is going to go all Bourne Identity and save the day - it's just not likely. Sure, it happens, it's just not likely.
In my experience competitive shooters with years of practice turn to jelly if you put $10 on the table. What would happen to the average wannabe in a gunfight I don't like to think.

Police and ex-military uniformly suck from what I've seen - and I've seen a lot. For some reason they seem to think they've had all the training they need in a week and a few hours practice a year will keep them in trim.

I never learned how to shoot at a moving target in the military. We went to the range maybe once a year and shot at stationary pop-up targets from 50m to 300m. But hey, I qualified expert every time!

I've since taught myself deflection shooting with traps.

2012-12-19 10:39:27

#394

Extra Medium: THE UZI SLAYER; +79|4410|Oklahoma

Dilbert_X wrote:
KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
Yeah, the faster the shooter is taken down or out or distracted, the better - duh. The difference is you think for some odd reason every man out there is Jon J Rambo able to engage and dodge and process the environment in milliseconds, waiting for the perfect opportunity to strike! Boom! Headshot, tango down! If a random hero wants to play random hero and distract a shooter, go for it. But lets not pretend random hero is going to go all Bourne Identity and save the day - it's just not likely. Sure, it happens, it's just not likely.
In my experience competitive shooters with years of practice turn to jelly if you put $10 on the table. What would happen to the average wannabe in a gunfight I don't like to think.

Police and ex-military uniformly suck from what I've seen - and I've seen a lot. For some reason they seem to think they've had all the training they need in a week and a few hours practice a year will keep them in trim.

I'd be willing to bet my bottom dollar that neither of you know remotely what in the fuck you're talking about.

I'd bet neither of you have been in the military.
I'd bet neither of you have ever even been to a gun training class.
I'd bet neither of you have ever taken a concealed carry course.
I'd bet neither of you have been in a situation where you've had to defend yourself.
I'd bet neither of you have spent more than 10 combined hours at a gun range.
I'd bet neither of you have the slightest idea, based in fact, of what you're talking about.

Also Dilbert, I'd LOOOOOOOOOVE to know where you actually spent time with police and ex-military under pressure to come to the conclusion that they uniformly suck. You probably know 1 pogue who couldn't hack it in the Auzzie Army and can't shoot his 12gauge worth a shit. I think I would be safe in saying that you're just blowing random words out of your ass.

And Ken.....
This guy is a Joe Blow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_Yqk-6KKM8
This guy potentially saved a little girl.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZrdbSJVSVM
The Joe Blow is a senior citizen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IooR29LT5hM
This Joe Blow shops at Dollar General.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPCmefD7Lio

LOOK AT ALL THEIR RAMBO ACTION!!! SO INTENSE BRAH!! BULLETS FLEW EVERYWHERE!!!!

I've got some friends and family here and here and here and here and here that would think you two are just the cutest little potential victims who ever was.

Last edited by Extra Medium (2012-12-19 10:39:57)

2012-12-19 10:42:39

#395

Macbeth: Banned; +2,444|5800

IIRC Dilbert is a competitive shooter.

Also a cat person

2012-12-19 10:44:57

#396

Extra Medium: THE UZI SLAYER; +79|4410|Oklahoma

Macbeth wrote:
IIRC Dilbert is a competitive shooter.

Also a cat person

Aus has comp shooters? LOL. That's like Texas having a skiing club.

2012-12-19 10:56:07

#397

KEN-JENNINGS: I am all that is MOD!; +2,978|6847|949

Extra Medium wrote:
Dilbert_X wrote:
KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
Yeah, the faster the shooter is taken down or out or distracted, the better - duh. The difference is you think for some odd reason every man out there is Jon J Rambo able to engage and dodge and process the environment in milliseconds, waiting for the perfect opportunity to strike! Boom! Headshot, tango down! If a random hero wants to play random hero and distract a shooter, go for it. But lets not pretend random hero is going to go all Bourne Identity and save the day - it's just not likely. Sure, it happens, it's just not likely.
In my experience competitive shooters with years of practice turn to jelly if you put $10 on the table. What would happen to the average wannabe in a gunfight I don't like to think.

Police and ex-military uniformly suck from what I've seen - and I've seen a lot. For some reason they seem to think they've had all the training they need in a week and a few hours practice a year will keep them in trim.
I'd be willing to bet my bottom dollar that neither of you know remotely what in the fuck you're talking about.

I'd bet neither of you have been in the military.
I'd bet neither of you have ever even been to a gun training class.
I'd bet neither of you have ever taken a concealed carry course.
I'd bet neither of you have been in a situation where you've had to defend yourself.
I'd bet neither of you have spent more than 10 combined hours at a gun range.
I'd bet neither of you have the slightest idea, based in fact, of what you're talking about.

Also Dilbert, I'd LOOOOOOOOOVE to know where you actually spent time with police and ex-military under pressure to come to the conclusion that they uniformly suck. You probably know 1 pogue who couldn't hack it in the Auzzie Army and can't shoot his 12gauge worth a shit. I think I would be safe in saying that you're just blowing random words out of your ass.

And Ken.....
This guy is a Joe Blow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_Yqk-6KKM8
This guy potentially saved a little girl.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZrdbSJVSVM
The Joe Blow is a senior citizen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IooR29LT5hM
This Joe Blow shops at Dollar General.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPCmefD7Lio

LOOK AT ALL THEIR RAMBO ACTION!!! SO INTENSE BRAH!! BULLETS FLEW EVERYWHERE!!!!

I've got some friends and family here and here and here and here and here that would think you two are just the cutest little potential victims who ever was.

Never in the military.
Have taken 2 shooting courses (each about an hour long.
Never taken a concealed carry course.
Been in plenty of situations where I've had to defend myself, including having a knife pulled on me on two seperate occasions.
Spent far more than 10 hours shooting guns in the last 6 months
Try harder

And I guess it's worth saying again. Mass shooter =/= Joe Blow taking out 1 or 2 slack-jawed criminals. It's not the same thing. Don't pretend it is. Dilbert is a comp shooter so of course he's going to pretend they are cool, calm and collected. Delta is active military and he agrees with my opinion. Jay is former military and he seems to agree with my opinion. Ty was in the military and he agrees with my opinion. Ramius is/was in the military and he seems to agree with my opinion. So while your appeal to authority is novel, it doesn't seem to hold water.

2012-12-19 11:00:01

#398

Extra Medium: THE UZI SLAYER; +79|4410|Oklahoma

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
And I guess it's worth saying again. Mass shooter =/= Joe Blow taking out 1 or 2 slack-jawed criminals. It's not the same thing. Don't pretend it is. Dilbert is a comp shooter so of course he's going to pretend they are cool, calm and collected. Delta is active military and he agrees with my opinion.

Oh well Delta agrees, pfff I might as well just log off now.

I implore you to explain how it is different. If you were in a room full of kids that were getting shot, would you breakdown and crumble or would you rise to the occasion?

2012-12-19 11:08:04

#399

KEN-JENNINGS: I am all that is MOD!; +2,978|6847|949

I would like to think I would rise to the occasion, but I've never been in that situation so I can't tell you definitively. I would trust someone with specific training in dealing with those types of situations far more than I would trust myself (or any other person that hasn't been through that training). I've made that clear several times - I'v even admitted a random hero could possibly be out there, but I wouldn't tout the ability to carry a concealed weapon as the ability to stop a mass shooting. I've made that clear several times, but I guess that's lost in my third grade sentence composition.

Oh, you can add rdx-fx to the list of people who agree

2012-12-19 11:12:24

#400

Extra Medium: THE UZI SLAYER; +79|4410|Oklahoma

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
I would trust someone with specific training in dealing with those types of situations

You mean someone like..............the police? Someone like...................a veteren?

But Dilbert said they by and large can't shoot for shit. He's apparently some Aussie top shot comp shooter so he MUST know what he is talking about, right?

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west-phoenix-az wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

(HUN)Rudebwoy wrote:

odb wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

west-phoenix-az wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

west-phoenix-az wrote:

west-phoenix-az wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:

rdx-fx wrote:

(HUN)Rudebwoy wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:

rdx-fx wrote:

west-phoenix-az wrote:

west-phoenix-az wrote:

pirana6 wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Extra Medium wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

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