h4hagen
Whats my age again?
+91|6639|Troy, New York
Iran angrily refused Sunday to comply with a demand by the United Nations nuclear agency to cease work on a once-secret nuclear fuel enrichment plant, and escalated the confrontation by declaring it would construct 10 more such plants.

The response to the demand came as Iran’s president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, said his cabinet would also order a study of what it would take for Iran to further enrich its existing stockpile of nuclear fuel for use in a medical reactor — rather than rely on Russia or another nation, as agreed to in an earlier tentative deal.

On Monday, Russia, a sponsor of the nuclear agency’s resolution, said it was “seriously concerned by the latest statements from the Iranian leadership,” according to news reports. France, which also supported the resolution by the United Nations International Atomic Energy Agency in Vienna last week, said Iran should be given a “last chance” to discuss the future of its nuclear program, Reuters reported. But, referring to the agency by its initials, Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner said Monday, “The fact that Iran persists in ignoring the demands of a big independent agency like the I.A.E.A., that’s very dangerous.”

The agency’s move also drew criticism from a former Iranian president and still influential politician, Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, who said the demand had been made “out of sheer spite,” the state-run broadcaster, Press TV, said Monday. “This resolution targets the entire panoply of Iran’s feats and accomplishments in nuclear research and technology,” he said, urging that Iran respond with “active diplomacy on the international scale.”

But Ali Larijani, the conservative speaker of the Iranian Parliament, reinforced remarks Sunday when he warned that Iran’s cooperation with the agency could “seriously decrease” in the near future. On Monday, he told a news conference that there was little benefit for Iran in its adherence to the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, or N.P.T., which governs the world’s use of nuclear power. “Whether you are a member of the N.P.T. or pull out of it has no difference,” Mr. Larijani told a news conference, according to Reuters.

It is unclear how long it would take Iran to enrich the fuel to the levels needed for the medical reactor, or whether it has the technology to fabricate that fuel into a form that could be put into the reactor. But the declaration appeared intended to convince the West that Iran was prepared to move closer to bomb-grade quality, while stopping short of crossing that threshold.

Even if Iran proceeded with a plan to build 10 enrichment plants, it is doubtful Iran could execute that plan for years, maybe decades. But the announcement drew immediate condemnation from the White House, which hoped Iran’s defiant tone would help persuade Russia and China that imposing harsh sanctions was justified.

Both countries, historically opposed to sanctions, had voted in favor of a resolution by the I.A.E.A. demanding that Iran stop work on a formerly secret enrichment plant. By refusing to accept that resolution, one senior administration official said, “Ahmadinejad may be doing more to assemble a sanctions coalition than we could do in months of work.”

The White House spokesman, Robert Gibbs, said of Iran’s declaration: “If true, this would be yet another serious violation of Iran’s clear obligations under multiple U.N. Security Council resolutions, and another example of Iran choosing to isolate itself.”

According to Iranian state television, Mr. Ahmadinejad’s cabinet voted to begin construction at five new sites designated for uranium enrichment plants — it did not specify where — and to determine locations for another five in the next few months.

In Europe, diplomats called the Iranian plan for a giant expansion of enrichment closer to a national aspiration than an imminent threat. Iran’s main enrichment facility, at Natanz, began early this decade and today the country has installed fewer than a tenth of the 50,000 centrifuges it is designed to handle. A second, once-secret plant — revealed two months ago — has been under construction for more than three years, and it is still at least a year from completion.

“It’s preposterous,” a diplomat in Vienna who collaborates with the International Atomic Energy Agency said of the plan for the 10 plants. The diplomat added: “It would be way, way more than they need no matter what their nuclear aspirations.” He noted that the United States had just one enrichment plant, in Paducah, Ky.

But the threat appeared to represent Iran’s decision to find a way to strike back politically at the West for the Security Council’s three resolutions demanding that it stop all enrichment activity. The atomic agency’s board built on those Security Council resolutions on Friday, when it demanded that Iran halt work on building its second enrichment plant. It was the first time the agency had told Iran to halt construction of a plant.

What American and atomic agency officials fear is that the steady drumbeat of defiant declarations from Iran could lead to the one act that would truly touch off a crisis: Iran’s withdrawal from the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. That would terminate the already limited presence of the West’s atomic inspectors in Iran. North Korea took that step in early 2003, and soon produced the fuel for eight or more nuclear weapons; it has since tested two.
More than 200 members of the Iranian Parliament signed a letter on Sunday, according to Iranian press accounts, urging that the atomic agency’s presence in Iran be further restricted, and individual political leaders have called for withdrawal from the nonproliferation treaty.

But Iran may be hesitant to follow North Korea’s lead. Such a declaration would signal to the world that Iran was heading for “nuclear breakout,” a rush to produce a bomb. It also would almost certainly build pressure for sanctions, and could lead to pre-emptive military action by Israel. “You have to think,” one of President Obama’s top national security advisers said recently, “that they would think twice before denouncing their treaty obligations.”

Tehran says its nuclear program is peaceful, and to date has enriched uranium to a relatively low grade, consistent with making fuel for a civilian nuclear power plant. But so far, there are no civilian nuclear plants under construction to receive that fuel; the two plants Iran is getting ready to open, at Bushehr, receive fuel from Russia. The absence of civilian reactors is one reason Western analysts suspect that Iran’s real intentions are to make atom bombs.

Iran has long talked of building as many as 19 more nuclear plants in addition to the complex at Bushehr. In the past, the plan for a total of 20 power plants resulted in a large gap between Iran’s declared ambitions and its envisioned needs for enrichment, and Sunday’s announcement sought to end that contradiction, at least in theory.

Western nuclear experts said that taking the declaration of the 10-plant goal at face value was akin to believing in the tooth fairy. “They’re hyping it,” said David Albright, president of the Institute for Science and International Security, a private group in Washington that tracks nuclear proliferation. “They couldn’t build that number of centrifuges. They don’t have the infrastructure.” Mr. Albright added that Iran’s supplies of uranium were dwindling, casting more doubt on the vastly expanded commercial fuel goal. The result, he said, is that the new push for enrichment will probably end up producing “one small plant somewhere that they’re not going to tell us about” and be military in nature.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/01/world … middleeast
h4hagen
Whats my age again?
+91|6639|Troy, New York
Obviously a major (or at least future) problem in the making. And if the US/ UN doesn't do something about it, Israel will, as they have in the past (See comments by Irans current government/ president), which may be what the US is hoping for at this point. But in that scenario Israel will get stuck as scapegoat with the short end of the stick, and more pressure will be put on Israel by the rest of the world. Gotta finish up an essay and then will be back with more in depth opinion.

Last edited by h4hagen (2009-11-30 16:32:01)

M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6509|Escea

The Iranian's are really starting to push their luck. Just about every government seeking a diplomatic solution is fed up with them and all they're doing is putting the major powers of the world on the other side as if to incite some kind of military action so they can play the victim. Peaceful power my ass. You don't keep peaceful power locked up and hidden.
rdx-fx
...
+955|6878
Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Sure as hell, the USA isn't going to be pushing for military actions the same way we were with Iraq.

As I've mentioned in previous threads, Iran is trying to position itself as the regional power.

If the US stands back, and lets this play out, Saudi Arabia and Israel are going to start getting really nervous.
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6835|San Diego, CA, USA
With the way Obama is handling this issue, I wouldn't be surprised if Obama sells them the 10 reactors.
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6509|Escea

rdx-fx wrote:

Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Sure as hell, the USA isn't going to be pushing for military actions the same way we were with Iraq.

As I've mentioned in previous threads, Iran is trying to position itself as the regional power.

If the US stands back, and lets this play out, Saudi Arabia and Israel are going to start getting really nervous.
If anyone goes first out of those two, it'll be the Israelis, and I wonder then what the Arab world will do. Whether they'll join up with the Iranians in an excuse to engage Israel, or sit back and guard their borders. Not sure what the majority of the Arab world's position is with Iran.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5644|London, England

M.O.A.B wrote:

rdx-fx wrote:

Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Sure as hell, the USA isn't going to be pushing for military actions the same way we were with Iraq.

As I've mentioned in previous threads, Iran is trying to position itself as the regional power.

If the US stands back, and lets this play out, Saudi Arabia and Israel are going to start getting really nervous.
If anyone goes first out of those two, it'll be the Israelis, and I wonder then what the Arab world will do. Whether they'll join up with the Iranians in an excuse to engage Israel, or sit back and guard their borders. Not sure what the majority of the Arab world's position is with Iran.
Iranians aren't Arab.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6509|Escea

JohnG@lt wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:

rdx-fx wrote:

Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Sure as hell, the USA isn't going to be pushing for military actions the same way we were with Iraq.

As I've mentioned in previous threads, Iran is trying to position itself as the regional power.

If the US stands back, and lets this play out, Saudi Arabia and Israel are going to start getting really nervous.
If anyone goes first out of those two, it'll be the Israelis, and I wonder then what the Arab world will do. Whether they'll join up with the Iranians in an excuse to engage Israel, or sit back and guard their borders. Not sure what the majority of the Arab world's position is with Iran.
Iranians aren't Arab.
I know, which is why I wonder what position the Arabs will take.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6887|132 and Bush

What will Russia and China do? That's about the only thing that matters right now.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Rohirm
Fear is a Leash
+85|6458|New Austin, Not

Kmarion wrote:

What will Russia and China do? That's about the only thing that matters right now.
Probably voice their "displeasure" and "condemn" the attack on Iran. At the end of the day, they will do nothing.

Same shit, different day.
BVC
Member
+325|6982
When they start enriching more than they need for all the proposed power plants and medical facilities - thats when you can say they're up to no good.

I think the arab nations would condemn action against Iran, but wouldn't do squat.  Saudi & Egypt are quite friendly with the US, remember.
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|7050|d
Isreal ant gone do shit to Iran because the risk of war spreading is too great, what with Israel surrounded by enemies all around. By that I don't mean the bigger countries but small freedom fighters like Hezbollah and Hamas etc.

What's more interesting is Iran's tactics to gain "friends" around the world.
h4hagen
Whats my age again?
+91|6639|Troy, New York

mafia996630 wrote:

Isreal ant gone do shit to Iran because the risk of war spreading is too great, what with Israel surrounded by enemies all around. By that I don't mean the bigger countries but small freedom fighters like Hezbollah and Hamas etc.

What's more interesting is Iran's tactics to gain "friends" around the world.
Israel hasn't really cared in the past.
rdx-fx
...
+955|6878

mafia996630 wrote:

Isreal ant gone do shit to Iran because the risk of war spreading is too great, what with Israel surrounded by enemies all around. By that I don't mean the bigger countries but small freedom fighters like Hezbollah and Hamas etc.

What's more interesting is Iran's tactics to gain "friends" around the world.
Didn't stop the Israelis when they took out the Iraqi Osirak reactor in 1981.

Remarkably similar situation, the Osirak reactor in 1981, and the current situation today.

All it would take would be an Iranian hint that they had nuclear capability, and one more rhetorical mouthing off of "We're going to push the Israeli nation into the ocean.  We're going to wipe them from the map!".

Then again...

Trying to figure out exactly what the Israelis and Iranians are going to do, bears a remarkable similarity to pissing into a head wind.

Last edited by rdx-fx (2009-12-01 18:55:53)

mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|7050|d

rdx-fx wrote:

mafia996630 wrote:

Isreal ant gone do shit to Iran because the risk of war spreading is too great, what with Israel surrounded by enemies all around. By that I don't mean the bigger countries but small freedom fighters like Hezbollah and Hamas etc.

What's more interesting is Iran's tactics to gain "friends" around the world.
Didn't stop the Israelis when they took out the Iraqi Osirak reactor in 1981.

Remarkably similar situation, the Osirak reactor in 1981, and the current situation today.

All it would take would be an Iranian hint that they had nuclear capability, and one more rhetorical mouthing off of "We're going to push the Israeli nation into the ocean.  We're going to wipe them from the map!".

Then again...

Trying to figure out exactly what the Israelis and Iranians are going to do, bears a remarkable similarity to pissing into a head wind.
I recognise what happened in the past, however I don't think they would do it again. For one; I  don't think Isreal could pay the cost of war (human costs), second; I think the world has "wisened" up to Isreal's antics.
rdx-fx
...
+955|6878

mafia996630 wrote:

rdx-fx wrote:

Trying to figure out exactly what the Israelis and Iranians are going to do, bears a remarkable similarity to pissing into a head wind.
I recognise what happened in the past, however I don't think they would do it again. For one; I  don't think Isreal could pay the cost of war (human costs), second; I think the world has "wisened" up to Isreal's antics.
I'm fairly confident that any important Iranian nuclear facility would be hardened against an Israeli air strike, as one of the first design specifications.

That being said, I wouldn't bet against the Israelis coming up with some solution around the Iranian defenses.
They've got a history of pulling off remarkable military accomplishments, based primarily on the audacity and improbability of the plan.

[sarcasm]
Hopefully, neither side has bothered to read Vince Flynn's Protect and Defend
(fiction novel, in a vein to Jack Bauer in 24.  Israel blows up an Iranian nuclear facility through a spy planting charges on the support columns of the structure.  Like what the Truthers think happened to the WTC on 9/11)
[/sarcasm]

As far as what the Iranian leadership is thinking, I'll offer a guess;
Iran notices that they're without a real rival to be the leading power in the region.
Saddam's Iraq is gone. Pakistan & India are busy staring at each other.  Saudi Arabia is a hair away from a Wahabbiist-incited revolution.

The USA and the UN have demonstrated they're pushovers when it comes to nations developing nuclear weapons.
Pakistan and India both have their bombs.  AQ Khan got off with a few years of house arrest, never died a mysterious death, and is generally living the happy life of a hero to his people.

North Korea has shown the world the blueprint for developing a nuclear weapon in spite of US or UN concerns;
Negotiate to buy time - act belligerent to gain bargaining chips - negotiate to gain concessions, aid, and sympathy - threaten a neighbor with rhetoric - rinse, repeat, until you've got your own nuclear arsenal.
All Iran has to do, is follow this same pattern modified slightly to fit their needs.  Replace <South Korea> in the script with <Israel>.

If the UN places more sanctions on Iran, either play the North Korea script or .. hell.. just do the Iraqi tactic;  UN already proved it's willing to work under the table, with the whole Iraqi 'Oil for Food' fiasco.

If Israel takes out a nuclear facility or two;
Iran can play that up as the 'evil Israelis' at it again.  Perhaps try to get a pan-middle-eastern coalition together.  (not really pan-arabic, if the lead state is Persian rather than Arabic, no?).  Perhaps inflame the sponsors of the great middle eastern proxy fighters some more, to throw more money and equipment at Hamas and Hezbolla.  Perhaps to tip the UN against Israel, finally.

So, what is their end-state goal?
Exterminate Israel?
Become a global nuclear power, just for the sake of being "uninvadeable"?
Become the leading power in the region, to lead ..what?  a coalition of middle eastern states in bankrupting the west through oil prices, terrorism, and radical islam?
Spread the Muslim Caliphate worldwide? (I'm sure I've got that terminology a little sideways).
They could build something akin to a middle eastern EU, but that'd be remarkably tricky to hold together.

Plenty of nations (or groups of nations), making a fair run towards being a rules-changing superpower.
EU is pretty much there, when taken as a whole (wasn't that the point of making the EU?).
Middle East.. really depends on what Iran, Israel, Saudi Arabia, and others do in the next 5-10 years.
China is positioning itself, quietly.
Russia has the natural resources, farmable land, and raw territory to be a world-class superpower again (if they fixed their people's stoic fatalism, their economy, and the mafia corruption)
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6697|'Murka

M.O.A.B wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:


If anyone goes first out of those two, it'll be the Israelis, and I wonder then what the Arab world will do. Whether they'll join up with the Iranians in an excuse to engage Israel, or sit back and guard their borders. Not sure what the majority of the Arab world's position is with Iran.
Iranians aren't Arab.
I know, which is why I wonder what position the Arabs will take.
The GCC is scared shitless of Iran having nukes. That's a fairly unambiguous position.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6392|eXtreme to the maX

rdx-fx wrote:

Exterminate Israel?
Become a global nuclear power, just for the sake of being "uninvadeable"?
Become the leading power in the region, to lead ..what?  a coalition of middle eastern states in bankrupting the west through oil prices, terrorism, and radical islam?
Spread the Muslim Caliphate worldwide? (I'm sure I've got that terminology a little sideways).
They could build something akin to a middle eastern EU, but that'd be remarkably tricky to hold together.
Maybe they want nukes for the same reason everyone else does, so that other nuclear powers can't threaten them.
Fuck Israel
Beduin
Compensation of Reactive Power in the grid
+510|6037|شمال
Good for them
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6509|Escea

Dilbert_X wrote:

rdx-fx wrote:

Exterminate Israel?
Become a global nuclear power, just for the sake of being "uninvadeable"?
Become the leading power in the region, to lead ..what?  a coalition of middle eastern states in bankrupting the west through oil prices, terrorism, and radical islam?
Spread the Muslim Caliphate worldwide? (I'm sure I've got that terminology a little sideways).
They could build something akin to a middle eastern EU, but that'd be remarkably tricky to hold together.
Maybe they want nukes for the same reason everyone else does, so that other nuclear powers can't threaten them.
I must've missed that announcement of the UK threatening to nuke anyone who looked at them in a shifty way.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6993|67.222.138.85
The best way for any of this to end is for somebody to turn somebody else into a glass parking lot so that everyone can really have a go at each other. The "restrained" aggressions on all sides are hardly permanent bounds held by some moral imperative; they're going to crack eventually, and the sooner it happens the better.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity." -Albert Einstein
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6907|London, England

M.O.A.B wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

rdx-fx wrote:

Exterminate Israel?
Become a global nuclear power, just for the sake of being "uninvadeable"?
Become the leading power in the region, to lead ..what?  a coalition of middle eastern states in bankrupting the west through oil prices, terrorism, and radical islam?
Spread the Muslim Caliphate worldwide? (I'm sure I've got that terminology a little sideways).
They could build something akin to a middle eastern EU, but that'd be remarkably tricky to hold together.
Maybe they want nukes for the same reason everyone else does, so that other nuclear powers can't threaten them.
I must've missed that announcement of the UK threatening to nuke anyone who looked at them in a shifty way.
So basically you haven't been watching the news for the past decade or so, probably longer, about Iran and how they're going to be invaded by Israel/USA/UK and the like. You've heard none of that talk whatsoever at all, and now you're surprised they want Nukes, Alrighty then...

As long as Israel has nukes, and as long as Iran is always being threatened by loads of other countries, they're gonna pursue their nuclear program. Hell, they're going to do it no matter what now, that ship has already set sail in terms of having them not want nukes. Maybe once some "parity" is acheived, Iran won't be fucked around so much, which eventually leads to somewhat better relations because everyone is now not being so stupid. Not like it's not happened like that before in terms of countries and nukes.

Even if someone does manage to destroy their facilities, it will still cause a shitstorm, arguably much more than if they managed to develop nukes, because then things would be more "ok then, you've got your big stick, i've got mines, fair enough"

People always cry about how bad nuclear bombs are, fact is, those things create peace. Without nukes there would have been a World War III, IV, V and so on in that.... order.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6993|67.222.138.85

Mekstizzle wrote:

People always cry about how bad nuclear bombs are, fact is, those things create peace. Without nukes there would have been a World War III, IV, V and so on in that.... order.
You do realize that the year is in fact 2009 and not 3009?
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6907|London, England
Oh shit, you for real?
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6993|67.222.138.85
It's been 64 years. That's not even a single lifetime.

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