http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theoryKmarion wrote:
All science is founded on the assumption that the physical world is ordered.
No. Just like evolution, it has no intelligence of its own, it's just how it is. It's just that people get confused easily and think things like evolution/natural selection and now the universe etc.. has some sort of "intelligence" but it doesn't.Im_Dooomed wrote:
I find it interesting that so many scientists can believe the universe is based on this orderliness
So you're saying, in your opinion (Correct me if I have this wrong) the process that created you, evolution, is completely mindless. But you, the product of this process, is of superior intelligence. Intelligence greater then any being on this planet?Mekstizzle wrote:
No. Just like evolution, it has no intelligence of its own, it's just how it is.
I can agree that the PROCESS of evolution is mindless, it doesn't require hands to work it. BUT, I don't necessarily agree, that it was mindlessness that created the process in the first place.
A weak analogy would be this: A fish tank. It require some setting up, but once it is ready and able to work on it's own, it doesn't require much intervention.
Nature is a powerful force. Those who seek to subdue nature, never do so permanently.
Maybe, you could compromise and say Evolution is the work of an intelligent thing, but I'd say it's less far fetched to see how it also could've just happened given the conditions and a whole load of other factors. Some people say it's all too good to just have been random, but given the time scales we're talking about here, and also the sheer scale in general, I'd say it's not
But it doesn't work on it's own, a fish tank doesn't work. You need an outside influence to introduce water, fish and fish food. And then to clean the tank regularly.Im_Dooomed wrote:
A weak analogy would be this: A fish tank. It require some setting up, but once it is ready and able to work on it's own, it doesn't require much intervention.
I'd agree time scales matter. Time is required for the thing in question, to be complete.
Nothing can be a complete, intelligent, efficient living being instantly without intervention. And nothing on this planet, yet discovered, had divine intervention in it's creation. BUT, But....
How can it even be proven?! If an archeologist discoveries a human body in the rubble in the middle of no where, much like our own, how can you prove it WASN'T divinely created? If this being of superior intelligence was found, with no proof of it's origin...Then you can safely assume it miraculously appeared there.
You would HAVE to show prove of that creature having a line of evolution before it. A complete, line. Otherwise, the assumption it was evolution, is of course, still an assumption. And...the assumption it was divinely created is still, obviously an assumption as well. So where does that leave us?
Guessing.
Mek, when you say, "I'd say its less far fetched to see how it also could've just happened given the conditions and a whole load of other factors..."
Well, take for instance the common example, and argument, for intelligent design-the moon and total eclipses.
Even with the universe having (assumingly) mindless order to it, is it also common to ASSUME that this order was the cause that allowed the moon to be the exact size to cover the entire area of our sun almost exactly to produce a total solar eclipse, AND the same to allow the earth's shadow to totaly encompass the moon to allow a lunar eclipse?
I don't have many other examples, but that's one anyway.
Foods for thought.
Nothing can be a complete, intelligent, efficient living being instantly without intervention. And nothing on this planet, yet discovered, had divine intervention in it's creation. BUT, But....
How can it even be proven?! If an archeologist discoveries a human body in the rubble in the middle of no where, much like our own, how can you prove it WASN'T divinely created? If this being of superior intelligence was found, with no proof of it's origin...Then you can safely assume it miraculously appeared there.
You would HAVE to show prove of that creature having a line of evolution before it. A complete, line. Otherwise, the assumption it was evolution, is of course, still an assumption. And...the assumption it was divinely created is still, obviously an assumption as well. So where does that leave us?
Guessing.
Mek, when you say, "I'd say its less far fetched to see how it also could've just happened given the conditions and a whole load of other factors..."
Well, take for instance the common example, and argument, for intelligent design-the moon and total eclipses.
Even with the universe having (assumingly) mindless order to it, is it also common to ASSUME that this order was the cause that allowed the moon to be the exact size to cover the entire area of our sun almost exactly to produce a total solar eclipse, AND the same to allow the earth's shadow to totaly encompass the moon to allow a lunar eclipse?
I don't have many other examples, but that's one anyway.
Foods for thought.
Nature is a powerful force. Those who seek to subdue nature, never do so permanently.
It actually does work on it's own. When it has the requirements to sustain itself (Mostly electricity to run pumps, lights, etc) You can leave it to itself for YEARS, and YEARS, and years.AussieReaper wrote:
But it doesn't work on it's ownIm_Dooomed wrote:
A weak analogy would be this: A fish tank. It require some setting up, but once it is ready and able to work on it's own, it doesn't require much intervention.
Lights=Sun
Pumps=Wind
Understand? Like I said, weak analogy, don't get hung up over it.
Nature is a powerful force. Those who seek to subdue nature, never do so permanently.
The moon wasn't always in the current position, and it isn't going to stay in that position.Im_Dooomed wrote:
Even with the universe having (assumingly) mindless order to it, is it also common to ASSUME that this order was the cause that allowed the moon to be the exact size to cover the entire area of our sun almost exactly to produce a total solar eclipse, AND the same to allow the earth's shadow to totaly encompass the moon to allow a lunar eclipse?
And in the future our sun will die and us along with it. Well before it dies in fact the Earth will be engulfed as the Sun expands.
How is that divine? We are doomed. Divine would be a great protector not allowing this to happen, but it is inevitable.
Quantum Theory motherfucker, do you know it?Kmarion wrote:
All science is founded on the assumption that the physical world is ordered.
God's a gambling addict.
It's all relative.
As v approaches 3x108liquidat0r wrote:
It's all relative.
The exception would be that statement and the topic I believe though.
The moon has been in that position for a long enough time to influence the creative intelligent minds of the human species. It doesn't matter if it wasn't in that position millions of years ago so the Dinosaurs can enjoy the spectacle.
Or if you prefer:
It's even MORE RARE, that our moon, earth, sun would be in that position during OUR time, giving us, intelligent, rational, scientific human beings the chance to observe the spectacle.
You can say, that we are created after a divine being, an image of a perfect creature. But, imperfect after that creation because of our right to FREE WILL. We can do what we will, and there is no influence, or prevention from a higher power.
If we are doomed, its because of our OWN DOING.
HOw about this, the human species is wiped out because of war, disease, food shortages,(ie: our own doing) before "the Earth will be engulfed as the Sun expands." ?
Wasn't the sun's fault.
Or if you prefer:
It's even MORE RARE, that our moon, earth, sun would be in that position during OUR time, giving us, intelligent, rational, scientific human beings the chance to observe the spectacle.
You can say, that we are created after a divine being, an image of a perfect creature. But, imperfect after that creation because of our right to FREE WILL. We can do what we will, and there is no influence, or prevention from a higher power.
If we are doomed, its because of our OWN DOING.
LULZ, so JUST because our solar system wont last FOREVER, you say there is no God?AussieReaper wrote:
And in the future our sun will die and us along with it. Well before it dies in fact the Earth will be engulfed as the Sun expands.
How is that divine?
HOw about this, the human species is wiped out because of war, disease, food shortages,(ie: our own doing) before "the Earth will be engulfed as the Sun expands." ?
Wasn't the sun's fault.
Nature is a powerful force. Those who seek to subdue nature, never do so permanently.
Precisely ordered
edit: And perfectly
edit: And perfectly
Last edited by Beduin (2009-02-25 06:51:26)
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
...show me the schematic
It is rare that the moon is distance to the Sun to create a total eclipse but not beyond the realms of possibility. You can't use it as proof of the devine, simply because of a chance occurrence. Oh it's pretty, I'll give you that. But happens elsewhere in the universe. There is nothing special about it.Im_Dooomed wrote:
LULZ, so JUST because our solar system wont last FOREVER, you say there is no God?AussieReaper wrote:
And in the future our sun will die and us along with it. Well before it dies in fact the Earth will be engulfed as the Sun expands.
How is that divine?
HOw about this, the human species is wiped out because of war, disease, food shortages,(ie: our own doing) before "the Earth will be engulfed as the Sun expands." ?
Wasn't the sun's fault.
If we manage to beat war, starvation, disease only for the Sun to engulf us, that is simply our fate, and the fate of countless worlds before us and into the future. You can't use a pretty event of our solar system as proof of a divine creator is my point. Proof of a divine creator would be one that isn't stupid enough to just leave us all to die when the Sun goes through it's well documented stages of expansion and contraction. A super giant or a dwarf star or a black hole. That is the future of Sol.
You can't use the argument, that just because our existence isn't guaranteed forever, then there is no God.AussieReaper wrote:
You can't use a pretty event of our solar system as proof of a divine creator is my point. Proof of a divine creator would be one that isn't stupid enough to just leave us all to die when the Sun goes through it's well documented stages of expansion and contraction.
Leave us all to die when the sun implodes five billion years from now, you think we'd really be around?
Lets say there is a divine creator of our world, would he not be so divine to already know our fate? What would it matter if our sun implodes in 5+Billion years, what if our creator would already know we wont be around?
I'm not merely using one event of the moon/sun eclipses to try and proof there is a god btw, just because our lives, our planet, our solar system and our sol itself doesn't have a "Lifetime Guarantee" from god (See what i did thar?) Doesn't mean there is no god to begin with.
Nature is a powerful force. Those who seek to subdue nature, never do so permanently.
Or maybe perfectly random ... and therefore ordered. wutBeduin wrote:
Precisely ordered
wutliquidat0r wrote:
Or maybe perfectly random ... and therefore ordered. wutBeduin wrote:
Precisely ordered
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
...show me the schematic
What are you on about Doomed?Im_Dooomed wrote:
You can't use the argument, that just because our existence isn't guaranteed forever, then there is no God.AussieReaper wrote:
You can't use a pretty event of our solar system as proof of a divine creator is my point. Proof of a divine creator would be one that isn't stupid enough to just leave us all to die when the Sun goes through it's well documented stages of expansion and contraction.
Leave us all to die when the sun implodes five billion years from now, you think we'd really be around?
Lets say there is a divine creator of our world, would he not be so divine to already know our fate? What would it matter if our sun implodes in 5+Billion years, what if our creator would already know we wont be around?
I'm not merely using one event of the moon/sun eclipses to try and proof there is a god btw, just because our lives, our planet, our solar system and our sol itself doesn't have a "Lifetime Guarantee" from god (See what i did thar?) Doesn't mean there is no god to begin with.
As for talking about the collection of seemingly improbable events as evidence for a divine creator that has ordered the universe for us... The universe is large. Fucking large. Actually, it's beyond our ability to truly comprehend the scale of its size. It's also really, really old. And as time -> ∞, the probability that this collection of events occurs somewhere in the universe almost becomes a total guarantee.
And as destruktion said, it's in our nature to find order and patterns. Golden ratio, Fibonacci sequence (as seen in nature) just to name a few.
"completely" random as opposed to "slightly" or "just on Tuesdays around tea time" random? I feel you're going to have to quantify this randomness of which you speak..
Last edited by IG-Calibre (2009-02-25 07:45:28)
I understand it as over all random?IG-Calibre wrote:
"completely" random as opposed to "slightly" or "just on Tuesdays around tea time" random? I feel you're going to have to quantify this randomness of which you speak..
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
...show me the schematic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_logicFlaming_Maniac wrote:
Quantum Theory motherfucker, do you know it?Kmarion wrote:
All science is founded on the assumption that the physical world is ordered.
God's a gambling addict.
You may enjoy this.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
This is a theory that I choose to relate to. The existence of an entity to me, seems very plausible. The perfectness in balance and scale - I just think it is too much to be left to 'chance'. But likewise, the immediate existence of human life seems far too extraordinary. Evolution has been proven in some forms already, but that's for another debate.Mekstizzle wrote:
Maybe, you could compromise and say Evolution is the work of an intelligent thing, but I'd say it's less far fetched to see how it also could've just happened given the conditions and a whole load of other factors. Some people say it's all too good to just have been random, but given the time scales we're talking about here, and also the sheer scale in general, I'd say it's not
Neither.Im_Dooomed wrote:
Completely random?
or
Precisely ordered?
I won't weigh in with any opinion, yet.
Chaotically, or maybe fractally, ordered.
IMO.
There are sets of rules. (Gravity in example or the structure of a molecule) Call them patterns or theory, whatever.
There are no way of knowing were they're from.
The only thing we are sure is that the universe is as it is.
Then it's ordered but exceptionally originated. (randomly or with divine intervention? = another debate. Trying to stay within the topic of the universe being ordered or chaotic not it's mean.) Though it could shed some light if some questions were to be answered.
A mixture of both IMHO.
There are no way of knowing were they're from.
The only thing we are sure is that the universe is as it is.
Then it's ordered but exceptionally originated. (randomly or with divine intervention? = another debate. Trying to stay within the topic of the universe being ordered or chaotic not it's mean.) Though it could shed some light if some questions were to be answered.
A mixture of both IMHO.
Are there sets of rules though?Jean_Peste_tu? wrote:
There are sets of rules. (Gravity in example or the structure of a molecule) Call them patterns or theory, whatever.
There are no way of knowing were they're from.
The only thing we are sure is that the universe is as it is.
Then it's ordered but exceptionally originated. (randomly or with divine intervention? = another debate. Trying to stay within the topic of the universe being ordered or chaotic not it's mean.) Though it could shed some light if some questions were to be answered.
A mixture of both IMHO.
Or just apparently ordered behaviours that we, possibly incorrectly, with our limited knowledge of the universe, assign fixed mathematical equations to?
We can't even be sure that this thing we call 'Universe' even really 'exists' (whatever 'existence' means).
Last edited by Scorpion0x17 (2009-02-25 10:22:00)