BF2S Forums Water exists on Mars and Titan (Saturn's Moon)

There are crabs on Mars.

S.Lythberg wrote:

Titan has liquid methane, not water

Well in all fairness.

"We believe that about 62 miles beneath the ice and organic-rich surface is an internal ocean of liquid water mixed with ammonia,"

We don't know for sure. http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2008/ma … ocean.html


I'd like to see large amounts of "available" water on Mars. The possibility of colonization and further exploration of the solar system could be increased exponentially.

Kmarion wrote:

S.Lythberg wrote:

Titan has liquid methane, not water

Well in all fairness.

"We believe that about 62 miles beneath the ice and organic-rich surface is an internal ocean of liquid water mixed with ammonia,"

We don't know for sure. http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2008/ma … ocean.html


I'd like to see large amounts of "available" water on Mars. The possibility of colonization and further exploration of the solar system could be increased exponentially.

delicious ammonia...

I think we are more likely to find extinct life on Mars or possible life on Europa before we find anything on Titan, It's just too cold for life as we know it (unless there's life as we've never seen it, which is very possible).


The only problem I can foresee with colonization is the gravitational differences between the planets.  Mars is both smaller and less dense than Earth, meaning that is has a significantly weaker gravitational pull.  The long term effects of such an environment would cause significant atrophy of both motor and cardiac muscle, and may eventually make a return to earth impossible for people raised in a martian environment.

S.Lythberg wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

S.Lythberg wrote:

Titan has liquid methane, not water

Well in all fairness.

"We believe that about 62 miles beneath the ice and organic-rich surface is an internal ocean of liquid water mixed with ammonia,"

We don't know for sure. http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2008/ma … ocean.html


I'd like to see large amounts of "available" water on Mars. The possibility of colonization and further exploration of the solar system could be increased exponentially.

delicious ammonia...

I think we are more likely to find extinct life on Mars or possible life on Europa before we find anything on Titan, It's just too cold for life as we know it (unless there's life as we've never seen it, which is very possible).


The only problem I can foresee with colonization is the gravitational differences between the planets.  Mars is both smaller and less dense than Earth, meaning that is has a significantly weaker gravitational pull.  The long term effects of such an environment would cause significant atrophy of both motor and cardiac muscle, and may eventually make a return to earth impossible for people raised in a martian environment.

Yes but liquid water none-the-less... Which is what you challenged.
You assume the same earth like characteristics are need for life across the universe (ammonia could be crucial to some organisms). The long term effect of weaker gravity are being explored now. Humans have evolved to revolve around their environments. I predict an abilty to accelerate these adaptations. Scientist are mapping out the entire human genome. Who is to say that over the next few hundred years we wont be able to genetically enhance our bodies to support these environments (If truly necessary for survival)? Step outside of the box my friend.

Edit: Titan is also surprising warm in some parts do to the geothermal activity. This is mostly caused by the gravitational friction between it and Saturn.

OrangeHound wrote:

xstax981 wrote:

What do you guys think? Did life exist there or not?

I really don't know why anyone might care ... I simply don't understand the point in trying to find life out in the universe.  I mean, its not like we have a shortage of life here on Earth.

Will it benefit us?

Will it dispel some crucial myth?

Is it some fantasy pursuit of influential Star Trek geeks?

Part of being human, pushing the boundary's of our knowledge.

Given that we have a good idea of what processes occur to create life on Earth it is vital that we find out if those processes are possible elsewhere.  It would significantly change our understanding of life and the universe.

Titan is the only other body we have found to have complex hydrocarbons besides the Earth.  The Huygens probe part of the Cassini mission was really cool.  I followed it on the web and on TV.  Very neat stuff they found on Titan.

I really want to see a drilling probe sent to Europa, that will be a really intense mission.  Europa's torsion with Jupiter creates a lot of geothermal energy, it is quite probable that Europa is the best chance for finding life outside of the earth.  We think it is a massive ocean with about 1-2 KM thick ice over top of it (very cold out by Jupiter) but that ocean may have life.  Seeing how life can exist in the harshest parts of our oceans it is really exciting to consider.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

OrangeHound wrote:

xstax981 wrote:

What do you guys think? Did life exist there or not?

I really don't know why anyone might care ... I simply don't understand the point in trying to find life out in the universe.  I mean, its not like we have a shortage of life here on Earth.

Will it benefit us?

Will it dispel some crucial myth?

Is it some fantasy pursuit of influential Star Trek geeks?

It's interesting, just like most of our high sciences.

cosmology
mathematics
archeology
physics

etc. etc.

But, in each of those, I can see some benefit.  Physics and mathematics have practical benefit ... archeology satisfies curiosity, and either helps us to demystify our origins or prove/disprove understandings of the past ... cosmology used to be beneficial, but is less so these days.

The search for life outside of Earth?  Why?

Wait.  It's the Mormons.  They want to provide evidence for their religion ... hmmm ... maybe that is it. 

S.Lythberg wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Yes but liquid water none-the-less... Which is what you challenged.
You assume the same earth like characteristics are need for life across the universe (ammonia could be crucial to some organisms). The long term effect of weaker gravity are being explored now. Humans have evolved to revolve around their environments. I predict an abilty to accelerate these adaptations. Scientist are mapping out the entire human genome. Who is to say over the next few hundred years we wont be able to genetically enhance our bodies to support these environments (If truly necessary for survival)? Step outside of the box my friend.

Edit: Titan is also surprising warm in some parts do to the geothermal activity. This is most caused by the gravitational friction between it and Saturn.

If extraterrestrial life is like nothing we've ever seen, will be even be able to recognize it as life?  Would a silicon based chemosynthetic life form with a life span of 20 thousand years be noticeable to us at all?

The tidal forces from Jupiter would cause much more internal heating on Europa than Saturn can cause on Titan though, I still think Europa may be more promising.

I think the term is alien life. My definition of life is basic. I've often believed that life on earth is just part of the universe trying to explain itself. In fact almost anything outside of the basic table of elements could be considered life . We are starting to head down a philosophical road.. so I better ease off. Titan has garnered more attention because of the other environmental elements (such as the aforementioned liquid water). If we were to soley focus on heat I could point you towards many other possibilities.

Kmarion wrote:

S.Lythberg wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Yes but liquid water none-the-less... Which is what you challenged.
You assume the same earth like characteristics are need for life across the universe (ammonia could be crucial to some organisms). The long term effect of weaker gravity are being explored now. Humans have evolved to revolve around their environments. I predict an abilty to accelerate these adaptations. Scientist are mapping out the entire human genome. Who is to say over the next few hundred years we wont be able to genetically enhance our bodies to support these environments (If truly necessary for survival)? Step outside of the box my friend.

Edit: Titan is also surprising warm in some parts do to the geothermal activity. This is most caused by the gravitational friction between it and Saturn.

If extraterrestrial life is like nothing we've ever seen, will be even be able to recognize it as life?  Would a silicon based chemosynthetic life form with a life span of 20 thousand years be noticeable to us at all?

The tidal forces from Jupiter would cause much more internal heating on Europa than Saturn can cause on Titan though, I still think Europa may be more promising.

I think the term is alien life. My definition of life is basic. I've often believed that life on earth is just part of the universe trying to explain itself. In fact almost anything outside of the basic table of elements could be considered life . We are starting to head down a philosophical road.. so I better ease off. Titan has garnered more attention because of the other environmental elements (such as the aforementioned liquid water). If we were to soley focus on heat I could point you towards many other possibilities.

I consider life as self replicating and nutrient consuming, but a non carbon form that can replicate may be possible, would it be life?  or just a virus?  Or something else?

I'd expect there to be abundant life elsewhere in the galaxy, I'd even bet money on it, but we'd be more likely to find and recognize carbon based life in an earth-like environment than some extremophile 30 miles below the ice crust of a distant moon.

S.Lythberg wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

S.Lythberg wrote:

If extraterrestrial life is like nothing we've ever seen, will be even be able to recognize it as life?  Would a silicon based chemosynthetic life form with a life span of 20 thousand years be noticeable to us at all?

The tidal forces from Jupiter would cause much more internal heating on Europa than Saturn can cause on Titan though, I still think Europa may be more promising.

I think the term is alien life. My definition of life is basic. I've often believed that life on earth is just part of the universe trying to explain itself. In fact almost anything outside of the basic table of elements could be considered life . We are starting to head down a philosophical road.. so I better ease off. Titan has garnered more attention because of the other environmental elements (such as the aforementioned liquid water). If we were to soley focus on heat I could point you towards many other possibilities.

I consider life as self replicating and nutrient consuming, but a non carbon form that can replicate may be possible, would it be life?  or just a virus?  Or something else?

I'd expect there to be abundant life elsewhere in the galaxy, I'd even bet money on it, but we'd be more likely to find and recognize carbon based life in an earth-like environment than some extremophile 30 miles below the ice crust of a distant moon.

Well, carbon life would probably be the most exciting . We've probably all seen the hubble ultra deep field image. That really put's the possibilties in context. Unfortunately I think the constant non stop hammering of these odds takes away from the amazing coincidences involved in the development of life on earth. The (relative) uniqueness and formation of our moon in relation to an inner planet as well as it's relative size to the earth has helped to stabilize our climate. You don't need incredibly large numbers to have an appreciation for what is known as fact.

Someone took a shit on mars