I fixed the OP, since I can't bring any credible source. I changed it by many.Adams_BJ wrote:
You saying it is a fact does no make it fact.sergeriver wrote:
4-I'd say it's a fact that most Catholic Christians are against abortion.
Religion is bunk. The more 'religious' people are the more FOS they are.
Catholicsim is bunk piled on bunk.
Catholicsim is bunk piled on bunk.
According to the Old Testament gays should be put to death. No ifs or butts ( )Christians out there are against homosexuality.
Fuck Israel
True. But the Catholic Church officially condemns the abuse of children (kind of a no brainer). But generally, the imams don't condemn the acts of radical Muslims. There is a difference for you.sergeriver wrote:
Yes, many do speak out, and many don't.
You've made a mistake here. While it's true many Christians don't want gays to marry (as I stated), it's also true that many Christians (probably many of the same Christians) believe that homosexual couples should be afforded the same status under the law as hetero couples. That is different than endorsing the religious state of marriage for homosexual couples...think "civil union" or something similar.sergeriver wrote:
I'm sure many Christians don't want gays to get married. About the majority I can't say that's a fact. My mistake.FEOS wrote:
There is a difference between "tolerance" and "acceptance". You can tolerate something without having to accept it as right.
I don't believe most Christians are against gays having the same rights as the hetero members of society (they do). What many (not most, as there is no source for the implied majority) Christians object to is extending the religious sanctity of marriage to homosexual couples. Legal protection for partners is not really the issue.
I don't believe the Bible says it is exclusively God's purview to take life...only that vengeance is His.sergeriver wrote:
How can they support death penalty and war if God it's the only one who can take a life?FEOS wrote:
No, it's not. There is a difference between a defenseless child and an adult who has made choices and taken actions that result in their conviction for a capital crime. And I would argue there is a marked difference between supporting war in general (most people--certainly most military members--do not) and supporting a particular effort...supporting the sacrifices made by other humans on our behalf. It's not supporting the war per se, but rather supporting those who have chosen to put their lives on the line (regardless of reason) so that others do not have to.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
sergeriver wrote:
These are a few things I find kinda hypocrite about some Christians, not all.
1-The Vatican speaks of the 7 new mortal sins, yet they don't mention child abuse. I guess being concerned about the environment is PC and gives the Catholic Church good PR. But priests molesting and/or abusing children is not a concern for them.
Wise up man. I suggest you follow the horrendous story of child abuse unfolding here in the U.K. on Jersey http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe … 271394.stm involving the rich and the good of British society, Child abuse is not just caused by Catholics . Did the Catholic Church handle abuse properly? no, were people of the Catholic faith troubled by this? of course they were! but hopefully the church has learned from its mistakes and will put in place measures to insure such events don't happen again.
2-Many Catholic Christians constantly point their fingers at Islam and claim that moderate Muslims should speak out against the extremists. I wonder how many of them speak out against these priests. I guess it wouldn't look ok for their Church to admit such thing.
again pretty stupid man of course people spoke out from with in the faith, do you think Catholics are monsters or something that tolerate child abuse?
3-Almost every Christian out there is against homosexuality. Isn't this behaviour the opposite to the teachings of Jesus? If I'm not wrong Jesus advocated to be tolerant to others and yet most Christians are against gays having the same rights than us because "it's not natural".
Catholics would say that they hate the sin not the sinner...
4-Almost every Christian around the World is against abortion, that's a fact. In the US many Evangelical Conservatives support the death penalty and the war in Iraq. Isn't this a double standard?
i'll let the Evangelicals of the board deal with this..
Last edited by IG-Calibre (2008-03-11 05:52:16)
Too bad for your argument that the primary doctrine of Christianity comes from the New Testament.Dilbert_X wrote:
Religion is bunk. The more 'religious' people are the more FOS they are.
Catholicsim is bunk piled on bunk.According to the Old Testament gays should be put to death. No ifs or butts ( )Christians out there are against homosexuality.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
I'm not making a defense of Islam here. I think Imams are wackos.FEOS wrote:
True. But the Catholic Church officially condemns the abuse of children (kind of a no brainer). But generally, the imams don't condemn the acts of radical Muslims. There is a difference for you.sergeriver wrote:
Yes, many do speak out, and many don't.
And I admitted it. Yet, I'm not sure about many of them accepting gays having the same status under the law as hetero couples.sergeriver wrote:
You've made a mistake here. While it's true many Christians don't want gays to marry (as I stated), it's also true that many Christians (probably many of the same Christians) believe that homosexual couples should be afforded the same status under the law as hetero couples. That is different than endorsing the religious state of marriage for homosexual couples...think "civil union" or something similar.FEOS wrote:
I'm sure many Christians don't want gays to get married. About the majority I can't say that's a fact. My mistake.
No, it doesn't. In fact, the Old Testament advocates the killing of a lot of people. Nevertheless, it's implicit in Christianism following Jesus teachings.sergeriver wrote:
I don't believe the Bible says it is exclusively God's purview to take life...only that vengeance is His.FEOS wrote:
How can they support death penalty and war if God it's the only one who can take a life?
1-I said Chatolics because the Vatican released these 7 new mortal sins. I never implied this didn't happen in other branches.IG-Calibre wrote:
sergeriver wrote:
These are a few things I find kinda hypocrite about some Christians, not all.
1-The Vatican speaks of the 7 new mortal sins, yet they don't mention child abuse. I guess being concerned about the environment is PC and gives the Catholic Church good PR. But priests molesting and/or abusing children is not a concern for them.
Wise up man. I suggest you follow the horrendous story of child abuse unfolding here in the U.K. on Jersey http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe … 271394.stm involving the rich and the good of British society, Child abuse is not just caused by Catholics . Did the Catholic Church handle abuse properly? no, were people of the Catholic faith troubled by this? of course they were! but hopefully the church has learned from its mistakes and will put in place measures to insure such events don't happen again.
2-Many Catholic Christians constantly point their fingers at Islam and claim that moderate Muslims should speak out against the extremists. I wonder how many of them speak out against these priests. I guess it wouldn't look ok for their Church to admit such thing.
again pretty stupid man of course people spoke out from with in the faith, do you think Catholics are monsters or something that tolerate child abuse?
3-Almost every Christian out there is against homosexuality. Isn't this behaviour the opposite to the teachings of Jesus? If I'm not wrong Jesus advocated to be tolerant to others and yet most Christians are against gays having the same rights than us because "it's not natural".
Catholics would say that they hate the sin not the sinner...
4-Almost every Christian around the World is against abortion, that's a fact. In the US many Evangelical Conservatives support the death penalty and the war in Iraq. Isn't this a double standard?
i'll let the Evangelicals of the board deal with this..
2-Many do speak out and many don't.
Last edited by sergeriver (2008-03-11 06:29:58)
I think your taking it a bit to literally - all the old sins are still sins man - these "new" 7 sins are not the only sins that now exist, they are more to focus the minds of those of the catholic faith on certain actions relevant to this new century to make them aware of how the church views the consequences..sergeriver wrote:
1-I said Chatolics because the Vatican released these 7 new mortal sins. I never implied this didn't happen in other brunches.IG-Calibre wrote:
sergeriver wrote:
These are a few things I find kinda hypocrite about some Christians, not all.
1-The Vatican speaks of the 7 new mortal sins, yet they don't mention child abuse. I guess being concerned about the environment is PC and gives the Catholic Church good PR. But priests molesting and/or abusing children is not a concern for them.
Wise up man. I suggest you follow the horrendous story of child abuse unfolding here in the U.K. on Jersey http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe … 271394.stm involving the rich and the good of British society, Child abuse is not just caused by Catholics . Did the Catholic Church handle abuse properly? no, were people of the Catholic faith troubled by this? of course they were! but hopefully the church has learned from its mistakes and will put in place measures to insure such events don't happen again.
2-Many Catholic Christians constantly point their fingers at Islam and claim that moderate Muslims should speak out against the extremists. I wonder how many of them speak out against these priests. I guess it wouldn't look ok for their Church to admit such thing.
again pretty stupid man of course people spoke out from with in the faith, do you think Catholics are monsters or something that tolerate child abuse?
3-Almost every Christian out there is against homosexuality. Isn't this behaviour the opposite to the teachings of Jesus? If I'm not wrong Jesus advocated to be tolerant to others and yet most Christians are against gays having the same rights than us because "it's not natural".
Catholics would say that they hate the sin not the sinner...
4-Almost every Christian around the World is against abortion, that's a fact. In the US many Evangelical Conservatives support the death penalty and the war in Iraq. Isn't this a double standard?
i'll let the Evangelicals of the board deal with this..
2-Many do speak out and many don't.
*sigh*sergeriver wrote:
These are a few things I find kinda hypocrite about some Christians, not all.
1-The Vatican speaks of the 7 new mortal sins, yet they don't mention child abuse. I guess being concerned about the environment is PC and gives the Catholic Church good PR. But priests molesting and/or abusing children is not a concern for them.
2-Many Catholic Christians constantly point their fingers at Islam and claim that moderate Muslims should speak out against the extremists. I wonder how many of them speak out against these priests. I guess it wouldn't look ok for their Church to admit such thing.
3-Almost everyMany Christians out there are against homosexuality. Isn't this behaviour the opposite to the teachings of Jesus? If I'm not wrong Jesus advocated to be tolerant to others and yet most Christians are against gays having the same rights than us because "it's not natural".
4--Almost everyMany Christians around the World are against abortion, that's a fact. In the US many Evangelical Conservatives support the death penalty and the war in Iraq. Isn't this a double standard?
Edit: fixed points 3 and 4, words almost every replaced by many. My apologies for generalizing there.
1- True, I agree with this but I dont view the catholics as "Christian". Theyre catholic, they think mary is on the same level with jesus which is wrong.
2- True. But some people do speak out.
3- No. The bible says no homosexual will go to heaven, most speak out hoping they will change.
4- Wrong. The bible itself supports the death penalty for all murderers, and rapists. It is strongly against abortion, it is considered murder.
Last edited by Dragonclaw (2008-03-11 06:13:23)
Ok, m8 don't feel offended, I just think they should have included pedophilia as well.IG-Calibre wrote:
I think your taking it a bit to literally - all the old sins are still sins man - these "new" 7 sins are not the only sins that now exist, they are more to focus the minds of those of the catholic faith on certain actions relevant to this new century to make them aware of how the church views the consequences..sergeriver wrote:
1-I said Chatolics because the Vatican released these 7 new mortal sins. I never implied this didn't happen in other brunches.IG-Calibre wrote:
2-Many do speak out and many don't.
#1 - your main point is that the church does not care about molesting or abusing children. this is a false claim.sergeriver wrote:
These are a few things I find kinda hypocrite about some Christians, not all.
1-The Vatican speaks of the 7 new mortal sins, yet they don't mention child abuse. I guess being concerned about the environment is PC and gives the Catholic Church good PR. But priests molesting and/or abusing children is not a concern for them.
2-Many Catholic Christians constantly point their fingers at Islam and claim that moderate Muslims should speak out against the extremists. I wonder how many of them speak out against these priests. I guess it wouldn't look ok for their Church to admit such thing.
3-Almost everyMany Christians out there are against homosexuality. Isn't this behaviour the opposite to the teachings of Jesus? If I'm not wrong Jesus advocated to be tolerant to others and yet most Christians are against gays having the same rights than us because "it's not natural".
4--Almost everyMany Christians around the World are against abortion, that's a fact. In the US many Evangelical Conservatives support the death penalty and the war in Iraq. Isn't this a double standard?
Edit: fixed points 3 and 4, words almost every replaced by many. My apologies for generalizing there.
#2 - your main point is that their is no punishment for pedophiles who are priests. this is a false claim.
#3 - Yes, but as you can see free will is involved with everyone. You can't force someone to not be gay, you can just encourage them not to participate. From my POV - I could care less.
#4 - We covered this in a topic titled by you before...I'm not up to rehashing.
Seriously, if you want to learn about the philosophy or argue these points, there's classes where its an open discussion. I've been to one and listened to them talk about the death penalty.
And what about Jesus?Dragonclaw wrote:
Wrong. The bible itself supports the death penalty for all murderers, and rapists. It is strongly against abortion, it is considered murder.
Jesus didnt change anything in the old testament, he said that himself. He just explained it in greater detail.sergeriver wrote:
And what about Jesus?Dragonclaw wrote:
Wrong. The bible itself supports the death penalty for all murderers, and rapists. It is strongly against abortion, it is considered murder.
I wasn't referring to the quantity aspect of your argument (many vs most). I was referring to the difference between marriage as a religious construct and spousal benefits of civil unions.sergeriver wrote:
I'm sure many Christians don't want gays to get married. About the majority I can't say that's a fact. My mistake.And I admitted it. Yet, I'm not sure about many of them accepting gays having the same status under the law as hetero couples.FEOS wrote:
You've made a mistake here. While it's true many Christians don't want gays to marry (as I stated), it's also true that many Christians (probably many of the same Christians) believe that homosexual couples should be afforded the same status under the law as hetero couples. That is different than endorsing the religious state of marriage for homosexual couples...think "civil union" or something similar.
In the US, the majority favor civil unions for homosexuals (as opposed to marriage). The source is 4 years old, so I would guess the number in favor of civil unions has increased since then.
USA Today wrote:
A majority (53%) opposes a law that "would allow homosexual couples to legally get married," while 24% favor it. But significantly fewer (41%) oppose "civil unions," giving homosexual couples "some of the legal rights of married couples."
But the New Testament does not exclude all forms of killing. It all goes to intent..."evil in the hearts of men" and whatnot. It wasn't all "turn the other cheek".sergeriver wrote:
No, it doesn't. In fact, the Old Testament advocates the killing of a lot of people. Nevertheless, it's implicit in Christianism following Jesus teachings.FEOS wrote:
I don't believe the Bible says it is exclusively God's purview to take life...only that vengeance is His.sergeriver wrote:
How can they support death penalty and war if God it's the only one who can take a life?
And quit taking credit for my posts, dammit!
Last edited by FEOS (2008-03-11 06:16:31)
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
i'm not offended at all, as I have nothing to do with religion, but I do come from a very devout Catholic family, who of course were devastated by the whole scandal of the child abuse in the church here in Ireland (and the world). You seem to hold the absurd opinion that those of the catholic faith just accepted this and didn't speak out against it, which is pretty fucking offensive to most Catholics i'd imagine..sergeriver wrote:
Ok, m8 don't feel offended, I just think they should have included pedophilia as well.IG-Calibre wrote:
I think your taking it a bit to literally - all the old sins are still sins man - these "new" 7 sins are not the only sins that now exist, they are more to focus the minds of those of the catholic faith on certain actions relevant to this new century to make them aware of how the church views the consequences..sergeriver wrote:
1-I said Chatolics because the Vatican released these 7 new mortal sins. I never implied this didn't happen in other brunches.
2-Many do speak out and many don't.
Last edited by IG-Calibre (2008-03-11 06:19:52)
Just to clarify on this, most people dont actually know what the term means.FEOS wrote:
It wasn't all "turn the other cheek".
It only applies if you are actually guilty of something.
In those days a slap on the cheek was a degrading thing, if you did something illegal the person would slap you on top of whatever court fine you were required to pay, and that meant to turn the other cheek so he could slap you again as a sign of humility and repentance for what you had done wrong.
Last edited by Dragonclaw (2008-03-11 06:20:08)
1 and 2 - Not false claims. The Vatican announces the new 7 mortal sins, and they don't include pedophilia. If you think about it, they should let Catholic priests to get married. Half of the problem solved. And I'm sure a lot of cases don't get to the public opinion.Pug wrote:
#1 - your main point is that the church does not care about molesting or abusing children. this is a false claim.sergeriver wrote:
These are a few things I find kinda hypocrite about some Christians, not all.
1-The Vatican speaks of the 7 new mortal sins, yet they don't mention child abuse. I guess being concerned about the environment is PC and gives the Catholic Church good PR. But priests molesting and/or abusing children is not a concern for them.
2-Many Catholic Christians constantly point their fingers at Islam and claim that moderate Muslims should speak out against the extremists. I wonder how many of them speak out against these priests. I guess it wouldn't look ok for their Church to admit such thing.
3-Almost everyMany Christians out there are against homosexuality. Isn't this behaviour the opposite to the teachings of Jesus? If I'm not wrong Jesus advocated to be tolerant to others and yet most Christians are against gays having the same rights than us because "it's not natural".
4--Almost everyMany Christians around the World are against abortion, that's a fact. In the US many Evangelical Conservatives support the death penalty and the war in Iraq. Isn't this a double standard?
Edit: fixed points 3 and 4, words almost every replaced by many. My apologies for generalizing there.
#2 - your main point is that their is no punishment for pedophiles who are priests. this is a false claim.
#3 - Yes, but as you can see free will is involved with everyone. You can't force someone to not be gay, you can just encourage them not to participate. From my POV - I could care less.
#4 - We covered this in a topic titled by you before...I'm not up to rehashing.
Seriously, if you want to learn about the philosophy or argue these points, there's classes where its an open discussion. I've been to one and listened to them talk about the death penalty.
3 and 4 - I just think the stance of a lot of Christians on these issues is the opposite of what Jesus said. That's all.
1 - It wasn't mentioned because child abuse is an old sin and not a "new" one. Besides, it is not only catholics but many other church leaders (baptist, etc.) also have been found abusing children. Catholics stand out as they are a centralized organization whereas most other churches are decentralized.
3 - There will always be an issue with "Holier than thou" types. In every christian sect. Saying that, everyone points to the bible as proof but guess what, divinely inspired or not it was written by man. Man fucks everything up in the end. Bible is a good handbook though.
4 - Punishment for a crimes weighs differently than a crime. Some people can not change. They will continue to harm people. And besides some southern baptists I actually don't know many people that support the death penalty. (I do, in fact if they can get convicted and get put down in the next room it would be better.)
What SHOULD be the focus is why the hell are convicted child molesters living 1000 feet from schools...
3 - There will always be an issue with "Holier than thou" types. In every christian sect. Saying that, everyone points to the bible as proof but guess what, divinely inspired or not it was written by man. Man fucks everything up in the end. Bible is a good handbook though.
4 - Punishment for a crimes weighs differently than a crime. Some people can not change. They will continue to harm people. And besides some southern baptists I actually don't know many people that support the death penalty. (I do, in fact if they can get convicted and get put down in the next room it would be better.)
What SHOULD be the focus is why the hell are convicted child molesters living 1000 feet from schools...
Read my OP again where it says some and many, not all of them. This doesn't even imply a majority within a Religion.IG-Calibre wrote:
i'm not offended at all, as I have nothing to do with religion, but I do come from a very devout Catholic family, who of course were devastated by the whole scandal of the child abuse in the church here in Ireland (and the world). You seem to hold the absurd opinion that those of the catholic faith just accepted this and didn't speak out against it, which is pretty fucking offensive to most Catholics i'd imagine..sergeriver wrote:
Ok, m8 don't feel offended, I just think they should have included pedophilia as well.IG-Calibre wrote:
I think your taking it a bit to literally - all the old sins are still sins man - these "new" 7 sins are not the only sins that now exist, they are more to focus the minds of those of the catholic faith on certain actions relevant to this new century to make them aware of how the church views the consequences..
The Vatican released these new 7 mortal sins, therefore I mentioned the Catholic Church, nowhere I said this didn't happen in other branches.Smells Like Muff wrote:
1 - It wasn't mentioned because child abuse is an old sin and not a "new" one. Besides, it is not only catholics but many other church leaders (baptist, etc.) also have been found abusing children. Catholics stand out as they are a centralized organization whereas most other churches are decentralized.
3 - There will always be an issue with "Holier than thou" types. In every christian sect. Saying that, everyone points to the bible as proof but guess what, divinely inspired or not it was written by man. Man fucks everything up in the end. Bible is a good handbook though.
4 - Punishment for a crimes weighs differently than a crime. Some people can not change. They will continue to harm people. And besides some southern baptists I actually don't know many people that support the death penalty. (I do, in fact if they can get convicted and get put down in the next room it would be better.)
What SHOULD be the focus is why the hell are convicted child molesters living 1000 feet from schools...
it's all right mate, whatever.. that's the impression I got from your post here, just like your little dig at the Church on my "7 new sins" thread, but a word to the wise, Paedophilia knows no religious boundary, and people constantly attacking the entire church of billions on the actions of a tiny minority of sick individuals is bordering now on persecution, as I say the Church didn't handle it well, but the faithfull certainly didn't condone it. Hopefully now the correct mechanisms are in place to insure no such thing can happen again, or if it does that the perpetrator is caught and punished accordingly..sergeriver wrote:
Read my OP again where it says some and many, not all of them. This doesn't even imply a majority within a Religion.IG-Calibre wrote:
i'm not offended at all, as I have nothing to do with religion, but I do come from a very devout Catholic family, who of course were devastated by the whole scandal of the child abuse in the church here in Ireland (and the world). You seem to hold the absurd opinion that those of the catholic faith just accepted this and didn't speak out against it, which is pretty fucking offensive to most Catholics i'd imagine..sergeriver wrote:
Ok, m8 don't feel offended, I just think they should have included pedophilia as well.
Most Evangelical Lutherans are not against homosexuality and I don't know a single person who's against abortion. (over 80% of finns are Evangelical Lutherans)
Then again, we aren't the most religious people in the world...
Then again, we aren't the most religious people in the world...
Last edited by Gawwad (2008-03-11 06:32:54)
I agree that it's a tiny minority and it's wrong to bash an entire Religion for the actions a few priests. Point conceded.IG-Calibre wrote:
it's all right mate, whatever.. that's the impression I got from your post here, just like your little dig at the Church on my "7 new sins" thread, but a word to the wise, Paedophilia knows no religious boundary, and people constantly attacking the entire church of billions on the actions of a tiny minority of sick individuals is bordering now on persecution, as I say the Church didn't handle it well, but the faithfull certainly didn't condone it. Hopefully now the correct mechanisms are in place to insure no such thing can happen again, or if it does that the perpetrator is caught and punished accordingly..sergeriver wrote:
Read my OP again where it says some and many, not all of them. This doesn't even imply a majority within a Religion.IG-Calibre wrote:
i'm not offended at all, as I have nothing to do with religion, but I do come from a very devout Catholic family, who of course were devastated by the whole scandal of the child abuse in the church here in Ireland (and the world). You seem to hold the absurd opinion that those of the catholic faith just accepted this and didn't speak out against it, which is pretty fucking offensive to most Catholics i'd imagine..
So considering that Child Abuse isn't a sin, would that make CP legal ?
yep, but i suspect a believer will mention a tempting by the devil. Furthermore, I'd once again like to reiterate how strange it is for a God to create animals that are gay as well. And boy o boy I can't wait for people to say; that's not true, or animals don't know what their doing, or they have no souls, etc.^*AlphA*^ wrote:
+ didn't god create all? so also gays... and Jesus doesn't he follow god?sergeriver wrote:
I base my opinion on what I see, don't need a wiki link for this. Post an evidence where Jesus condemned homosexuality. And being against abortion and supporting death penalty is a double standard IMO. You can't say this life is more valuable than this other because you are not God. Isn't God the only one who can take a life?d4rkph03n1x wrote:
Okay, first point is pretty hard hitting, but where are your opinions founded from? Watercooler chat? Homosexuality is frowned upon and I don't believe Jesus supported/would have supported homosexuality. I'm not against abortion, but i'm not the most devoted christian either. How is it a double standard? Abortion and the death penalty are not related in anyway or in any situation. I'm sorry, but most of your argument is flawed.
Edit: spelling.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15750604/
http://www.bidstrup.com/sodomy.htm