When everybody wants money, and you give it to them, and you get home and your wife wants money.
ffs, it never ends.
ffs, it never ends.
Last edited by S3v3N (2009-10-23 19:56:41)
You assume the minds of the ruling and the ruled are equal. If they were, then as you said there would be no need for rulers/the only rulers would be those who happen to be at the right place at the right time to have, and even then their power would be marginal.Pochsy wrote:
If it is only the minds of the people that matter, it must then be that you are in fact ruling a principality of the mind, which lends to a republic in the long run.
OmniDeath wrote:
When mods bump year old threads.
When people don't realize " " means a joke has been made.Kmarion wrote:
People don't know the difference between a bump.. and posting in the right place/preventing duplicate threads.
But he also holds that this ruler must be a man from the people, and for them. It is important to remember that you must replace the system of belief you have destroyed- you must implant Machiavelli's notion of virtue in even the most base mind in order for the system to work. Even if the people are unable to understand the superstructure built on the basic notion of "there is no god", it alone is enough to keep his republic alive. This moves people from the passive idea that the next life will be better, and spurs them on to actively seek power in this life much through the way Machiavelli describes- whether they know it or not. For if you never knew of the church, you never believed in morals to begin with. All Machiavelli has to do is have one person successfully use his plan for the entire system to be set in motion for the entire thing to work for eternity- he only needs the one man to understand his novel conclusion and practice it to have all those "who can do neither" fall into line. This then, forms the republic- a republic based not on equality of the mind, but equality of goals. The foolish man understands how to use others to get what he wants (the prince) even without knowing the full scheme. This checks the power of any would be tyrant, for when the tyrant takes from the people, he reduces their power, and they will not let this happen willingly. He will be abandoned. The text then, is the institution which founds the culture, all led by a single man who can enact the plan at least once in a generation.Flaming_Maniac wrote:
You assume the minds of the ruling and the ruled are equal. If they were, then as you said there would be no need for rulers/the only rulers would be those who happen to be at the right place at the right time to have, and even then their power would be marginal.Pochsy wrote:
If it is only the minds of the people that matter, it must then be that you are in fact ruling a principality of the mind, which lends to a republic in the long run.
But they aren't. As Machiavelli writes, there are three kinds of people - people who can come to novel ideas one their own, people who can understand the novel conclusions reached by others, and those that can do neither. Following that system, there is a clear hierarchy of the mind that will inevitably lend itself to a socially and politically tiered system.
ask?Kmarion wrote:
browser toolbars always trying to sneak into your googlnetz
holy necropost batman~ are we really, really, really doin away with ee chats? we regurgitate triggers shitty thread if we aren't?Kmarion wrote:
We need a gear grinding thread.
I think one of the things you misunderstand is that Machiavelli is not assuming the benevolence of a prince, he is merely writing a road map to how one becomes a prince. What is important is not the prince's motivation, but what the people think the prince's motivation is. The country stays together based on where the people think the country is going, not necessarily where the country is actually going. When you consider that the prince is acting towards his own ends using the principles laid out by Machiavelli to acquire and hold power and is not necessarily a benevolent leader, statements like:Pochsy wrote:
~
Pochsy wrote:
But he also holds that this ruler must be a man from the people, and for them.
don't make any sense.Pochsy wrote:
This then, forms the republic- a republic based not on equality of the mind, but equality of goals. The foolish man understands how to use others to get what he wants (the prince) even without knowing the full scheme.