On the other hand, I bet more innocent people have been shot by the police In police shootings than CCW shootings.
Last edited by 1stSFOD-Delta (2012-12-19 11:25:05)
Baba Booey
Baba Booey
Yes, that's exactly what I mean. If you read the posts I've made over the last day or so, that's EXACTLY what I'm arguing.Extra Medium wrote:
You mean someone like..............the police? Someone like...................a veteren?KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
I would trust someone with specific training in dealing with those types of situations
But Dilbert said they by and large can't shoot for shit. He's apparently some Aussie top shot comp shooter so he MUST know what he is talking about, right?
so argue with dilbert about that, not me. Why would you take his statements and debate them with me? Seems kind of, well, stupid.
Most cops can't shoot worth shit. It's a fact. Going to the range to qualify once a year doesn't cut it.Extra Medium wrote:
You mean someone like..............the police? Someone like...................a veteren?KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
I would trust someone with specific training in dealing with those types of situations
But Dilbert said they by and large can't shoot for shit. He's apparently some Aussie top shot comp shooter so he MUST know what he is talking about, right?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
1 member of the LGOF is the same as the rest I suppose.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
Yes, that's exactly what I mean. If you read the posts I've made over the last day or so, that's EXACTLY what I'm arguing.Extra Medium wrote:
You mean someone like..............the police? Someone like...................a veteren?KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
I would trust someone with specific training in dealing with those types of situations
But Dilbert said they by and large can't shoot for shit. He's apparently some Aussie top shot comp shooter so he MUST know what he is talking about, right?
so argue with dilbert about that, not me. Why would you take his statements and debate them with me? Seems kind of, well, stupid.
It doesnt matter Jay. They are cops so they are better.
It doesn't matter if sometimes they shoot bystanders.
All that matters is that Joe Blow shouldn't try to take out a mass murderer because he isnt trained and there is no way he could handle the situation. Only fictional heros, cops, military, or those with training can possibly handle the situation. Nobody else should even attempt it, no matter how many lives he may be able to save.
It doesn't matter if sometimes they shoot bystanders.
All that matters is that Joe Blow shouldn't try to take out a mass murderer because he isnt trained and there is no way he could handle the situation. Only fictional heros, cops, military, or those with training can possibly handle the situation. Nobody else should even attempt it, no matter how many lives he may be able to save.
Last edited by west-phoenix-az (2012-12-19 11:45:08)
CCW Permit classes go to great lengths to teach you what situations you are and are not allowed to react in, as well as where you are and are not allowed to carry. The one I went through also had us prove competency by disassembling and reassembling the weapon, 2 hours of mandatory supervised range time and you had to qualify with the weapon you were carrying. Also covered was the different effects different bullets had on the human body and what types of material certain bullets could penetrate all geared to picture of bullet control and it's importance. It was actually much more in depth than the military training that I had received with the M16 and M9. To say CCW permit holders are a bunch of stupid redneck Rambo's is stupid to say the least.
That's how my class was too.Extra Medium wrote:
CCW Permit classes go to great lengths to teach you what situations you are and are not allowed to react in, as well as where you are and are not allowed to carry. The one I went through also had us prove competency by disassembling and reassembling the weapon, 2 hours of mandatory supervised range time and you had to qualify with the weapon you were carrying. Also covered was the different effects different bullets had on the human body and what types of material certain bullets could penetrate all geared to picture of bullet control and it's importance. It was actually much more in depth than the military training that I had received with the M16 and M9. To say CCW permit holders are a bunch of stupid redneck Rambo's is stupid to say the least.
I actually learned a few things.
I went in there thinking it was bullshit. I just got back from Afghanistan where I shot people with automatic grenade launchers. I didn't need to sit there through four hours of shit.
It turned out to be a very good informative class.
Baba Booey
I figured they tell you stuff like that before you get deployed.
inane little opines
Haha, i've never said Cops are better. I said I trust someone with training over someone without training. Within those two groups, you have people who are more capable and people who are less capable. Nor have I ever said someone should not attempt to be a hero. It seems you guys are more interested in telling me what my position is so you can argue against it than actually comprehending what I am saying. Giving someone a weapon doesn't automatically turn them into a hero, nor does it automatically turn them into a mass murderer.west-phoenix-az wrote:
It doesnt matter Jay. They are cops so they are better.
It doesn't matter if sometimes they shoot bystanders.
All that matters is that Joe Blow shouldn't try to take out a mass murderer because he isnt trained and there is no way he could handle the situation. Only fictional heros, cops, military, or those with training can possibly handle the situation. Nobody else should even attempt it, no matter how many lives he may be able to save.
Who's saying that?Extra Medium wrote:
To say CCW permit holders are a bunch of stupid redneck Rambo's is stupid to say the least.
Nope. Our military is shockingly unprepared. Most of our troops go to the range for a few weeks in basic training and then maybe go to the range to qualify once a year. Unless you're a sniper, they don't talk about bullet drop or anything else ballistic related. We were made to memorize the maximum effective range of our weapons and that was all. Soldiers are cannon fodder meant to move around on a chess board, not think.Shocking wrote:
I figured they tell you stuff like that before you get deployed.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Di … t_shooter)Extra Medium wrote:
Aus has comp shooters? LOL. That's like Texas having a skiing club.Macbeth wrote:
IIRC Dilbert is a competitive shooter.
Also a cat person
http://groupspaces.com/TexasSkiandSnowboard/Jaekus wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Di … t_shooter)Extra Medium wrote:
Aus has comp shooters? LOL. That's like Texas having a skiing club.Macbeth wrote:
IIRC Dilbert is a competitive shooter.
Also a cat person
http://www.texas-ski.org/
Last edited by -Whiteroom- (2012-12-19 18:35:29)
I bet you lose a lot of bets.Extra Medium wrote:
I'd be willing to bet my bottom dollar that neither of you know remotely what in the fuck you're talking about.
I'd bet neither of you have been in the military.
I'd bet neither of you have ever even been to a gun training class.
I'd bet neither of you have ever taken a concealed carry course.
I'd bet neither of you have been in a situation where you've had to defend yourself.
I'd bet neither of you have spent more than 10 combined hours at a gun range.
I'd bet neither of you have the slightest idea, based in fact, of what you're talking about.
Also Dilbert, I'd LOOOOOOOOOVE to know where you actually spent time with police and ex-military under pressure to come to the conclusion that they uniformly suck. You probably know 1 pogue who couldn't hack it in the Auzzie Army and can't shoot his 12gauge worth a shit. I think I would be safe in saying that you're just blowing random words out of your ass.
I don't have your experience, you don't have my experience, lets just leave it there.
I didn't say that at all. Competition shooting is a fairly light kind of pressure, you know exactly when its going to happen and you can prepare yourself for it. Who knows how a competition shooter would react under real stress.Ken Jennings wrote:
Dilbert is a comp shooter so of course he's going to pretend they are cool, calm and collected.
I would say though that it takes a different kind of nerve to put 60 or 150 shots down range and make every single one perfect or near to perfect over the course of several hours or days - and do so better than the other 100 guys who turned up hoping to do the same.
Its very different to shooting off magazines at tin cans hoping for a few lucky hits with no-one to compare yourself against, or blazing away in the general direction of the enemy while you wait for the airstrike to roll in.
To say some guy who did a 4 hour class is going to be a stone-cold super-sniper who can wipe out bad guys without breaking a sweat and finish off with a dry quip is equally stupid. Anyone who thinks they are would themselves be stupid.Extra Medium wrote:
To say CCW permit holders are a bunch of stupid redneck Rambo's is stupid to say the least.
I've seen enough police and military who thought they were pretty badass fumble their draw, fumble their reload, scatter their loose ammo on the floor, spray the rounds they did get off randomly over the wrong target and fail to follow simple commands like "cease fire" or "put the gun down now" to know that being ex-police or military doesn't really count for anything. How they'd get on in real combat I dread to think.
Police and military aren't generally taught to anything like a minimal standard - and yet they're given badges with 'Expert' and so on on them. If anything it gives them huge overconfidence which is horribly dangerous. Luckily they usually only come up against drug addicts and third-world tribesmen so they're rarely exposed.
As for someone who has done a 4 hour course? Sorry.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2012-12-25 20:59:25)
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Guy sets house on fire and waits for the firemen to show up. Destroys 7 homes, displaces 33 people and killed two firemen. He did this 30 years after killing his grandmother with a hammer. He spent 17 years in state prison for manslaughter. And they still gave him guns.
On Monday morning when darkness was still raw, William Spengler Jr. armed himself with a rifle, a revolver and a shotgun. He had killed before. Harboring a deep-seated hatred of his sister, who lived with him, and a desire to harm his neighbors on a beachfront strip off Lake Ontario, Mr. Spengler composed a rough, typewritten plan that foretold of the destruction to come.
“I still have to get ready to see how much of the neighborhood I can burn down and do what I like doing best — killing people,” Mr. Spengler, 62, wrote, in a note the police recovered.
It had been 32 years since he beat his grandmother to death with a hammer in the Lake Road house next to his.
As Christmas Eve dawned in this suburb of Rochester, local authorities say, Mr. Spengler set fire to a car, as a trap. When an engine company came roaring down the street, he started shooting at the first responders, most likely from his Bushmaster .223-caliber rifle. It was the same type of semiautomatic weapon used in the school shooting 10 days earlier in Newtown, Conn.
“He was equipped to go to war to kill innocent people,” the Webster police chief, Gerald L. Pickering, said of Mr. Spengler.
The authorities say Mr. Spengler fired shots that killed two volunteer firefighters from long range and seriously wounded two others, and set a “raging inferno.” The police found him dead on a berm about five hours after the siege started, with a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head.
What we need to do is make sure every fire has an armed guard.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Give the firefighters guns, then they can engage in a firefight while fighting a fire.
Something doesn't add up here. If you were sentenced to 17 years in prison, you were convicted of a felony. If you were convicted of a felony, you are a prohibited person. If you are a prohibited person, you cannot legally possess a firearm (much less buy or own one).Macbeth wrote:
Guy sets house on fire and waits for the firemen to show up. Destroys 7 homes, displaces 33 people and killed two firemen. He did this 30 years after killing his grandmother with a hammer. He spent 17 years in state prison for manslaughter. And they still gave him guns.On Monday morning when darkness was still raw, William Spengler Jr. armed himself with a rifle, a revolver and a shotgun. He had killed before. Harboring a deep-seated hatred of his sister, who lived with him, and a desire to harm his neighbors on a beachfront strip off Lake Ontario, Mr. Spengler composed a rough, typewritten plan that foretold of the destruction to come.
“I still have to get ready to see how much of the neighborhood I can burn down and do what I like doing best — killing people,” Mr. Spengler, 62, wrote, in a note the police recovered.
It had been 32 years since he beat his grandmother to death with a hammer in the Lake Road house next to his.
As Christmas Eve dawned in this suburb of Rochester, local authorities say, Mr. Spengler set fire to a car, as a trap. When an engine company came roaring down the street, he started shooting at the first responders, most likely from his Bushmaster .223-caliber rifle. It was the same type of semiautomatic weapon used in the school shooting 10 days earlier in Newtown, Conn.
“He was equipped to go to war to kill innocent people,” the Webster police chief, Gerald L. Pickering, said of Mr. Spengler.
The authorities say Mr. Spengler fired shots that killed two volunteer firefighters from long range and seriously wounded two others, and set a “raging inferno.” The police found him dead on a berm about five hours after the siege started, with a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head.
I'm going to bet he didn't own them legally. Also, WTF the fixation of Bushmaster rifles? Honestly, they are viewed as a lower tier of quality AR-15. It's hard to imagine the Aurora shooter, the CT shooter, and this guy all used the same brand of AR-15 by chance.
Last edited by RAIMIUS (2012-12-25 21:06:44)
Well apparently its not difficult to buy a firearm secondhand, from a gun show, there being no background checks and such.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
My father is the Webster police chief, It is a tragedy what happened in that christmas eve, great men were lost. I believe these latest shootings bring up not the problem of gun control, as the weapons were not legally obtained, but the problem with mental illness in this country. Not enough is being done for mentally ill adults. Medication does not solve the problems in most cases, and the side effects of violence are very apparent.
If it really is a cultural thing then we have an overwhelming amount of work ahead of us...
The private sale of firearms between two people does not require a backround check, in most place (California and similiar states may be different). The "gunshow loophole" is nothing more than the legal transaction between two citizens. Which means you could call it the "I know a guy trying to sell his random gun loophole" or the "craigslist loophole" or the "local classifieds loophole". There is no magic gunshow free pass. Any firearms transaction involving an FFL dealer will involve all the same applicable legal requirements.Dilbert_X wrote:
Well apparently its not difficult to buy a firearm secondhand, from a gun show, there being no background checks and such.
Heartbreaking. Dawn is a pretty girl and had her whole life ahead of her.- A 24-year-old Rochester, New York-area woman illegally supplied two of the firearms used in the Christmas Eve sniper deaths of two volunteer firefighters who were responding to a deliberately set house fire, law enforcement officials said Friday.
U.S. Attorney William Hochul said Dawn Nguyen of Greece, New York, acted as a so-called "straw purchaser" for the two long guns used by William Spengler in the pre-dawn attack on December 24. Spengler, a 62-year-old ex-convict who was forbidden to own guns, also had a handgun in his possession, a Smith & Wesson .38 caliber revolver.
Nguyen was arrested on Friday at her home in Greece, a town about 10 miles west of Rochester. She was charged with the federal offense of willfully making a false statement in connection with the purchase of a firearm, according to the affidavit filed with her arrest warrant.
...
In June 2010, Nguyen accompanied Spengler to a gun store in nearby Henrietta, police said. In buying the two weapons there, a Mossberg pump-action shotgun and a .223 Bushmaster rifle with a flash suppressor, Nguyen signed papers swearing she was the legal buyer.
...
The same model Bushmaster rifle was used in the killing of 20 students and six teachers in Newtown, Connecticut, on December 14, an event that has ignited a national debate on gun control, particularly the availability of semi-automatic weapons like the Bushmaster. That model was also among those used in the Aurora, Colorado, movie theater massacre in July that left 12 dead and 58 others wounded
She's still alive, isn't she? More than I can say for the two volunteer firefighters.
Where is the line between being a straw purchaser and selling your guns second-hand to anyone - as you're allowed to do?
"You know, I wanted to buy a gun, a friend who happens to be a felon recommended a make and model, I decided I didn't like it after all and sold it on to him for face value"
"You know, I wanted to buy a gun, a friend who happens to be a felon recommended a make and model, I decided I didn't like it after all and sold it on to him for face value"
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
How about transferable licensing between individuals as with automobiles? I'd be all for that. That way, the straw purchaser couldn't claim ignorance of the law or complain about legal second-hand sales, and second-hand sales would smell a bit more legitimate.