BF2S Forums multi-cultural society has failed

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Funny, I see the same thing whenever statists pop up on the left too...

I focus on preserving civil rights.  Economic policy is another ball game. 

Which is a paradox. If you had your wish and we ended up in a social democracy, minorities and minority views would become irrelevant and at the mercy of the views of the mob.

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Which is a paradox. If you had your wish and we ended up in a social democracy, minorities and minority views would become irrelevant and at the mercy of the views of the mob.

Well, if you'll notice, I break from social democracy when it comes to religion.  I believe religion in and of itself is part of what keeps a social democracy from functioning properly.  This applies to both majority religions and minority ones.

Ideally, a social democracy functions best in a thoroughly secular and rational society.  To reach this point, religion must dwindle in significance.

Why? It's useful for keeping the sheep in line. You need less jails when people fear hell.

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Well, if you'll notice, I break from social democracy when it comes to religion.  I believe religion in and of itself is part of what keeps a social democracy from functioning properly.  This applies to both majority religions and minority ones.

Ideally, a social democracy functions best in a thoroughly secular and rational society.  To reach this point, religion must dwindle in significance.

Why? It's useful for keeping the sheep in line. You need less jails when people fear hell.

The current extremely high rate of incarceration in America would seem to defy that assumption completely.

mr.hrundi wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Why? It's useful for keeping the sheep in line. You need less jails when people fear hell.

The current extremely high rate of incarceration in America would seem to defy that assumption completely.

I see we have two Americans talking - religion plays a completely different role in the states. That holding the hand on the bible and knowing which politician goes to which church and how often - all that is completely irrelevant in Germany. Religion is personal life. It has nothing to do with real politics.

Macbeth wrote:

mr.hrundi wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Funny, I see the same thing whenever statists pop up on the left too...

First - you guys are way to fast for me. By the time I typed one post there's 5 more to respond to...

Second - without any source to back it up I'd say that about 50% like that Christianity-remarks. As I said above, that has nothing to do with the power of religion, but with ethics. Yet, as it's used by politicians here at the moment, it's there to polarize. That old pro or contra game.
With several millon muslims Islam sure is a part of Germany and we can still be a nation based on christian ethics. I like christian ethics and I haven't prayed since kindergarten.

There are 2 reasons why the whole discussion is somewhat useless: as soon as there's another problem that can be used to polarize, no one will talk about this one anymore, and until the next general election, 80% of the voters will have forgotten about it. It's just like in every ohter democracy.

You're being irrational. You guy should just leave Germany and move to the U.S., and bring lots and lots of German girls.

Sexy sexy German girls.

Macbeth wrote:

mr.hrundi wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Funny, I see the same thing whenever statists pop up on the left too...

First - you guys are way to fast for me. By the time I typed one post there's 5 more to respond to...

Second - without any source to back it up I'd say that about 50% like that Christianity-remarks. As I said above, that has nothing to do with the power of religion, but with ethics. Yet, as it's used by politicians here at the moment, it's there to polarize. That old pro or contra game.
With several millon muslims Islam sure is a part of Germany and we can still be a nation based on christian ethics. I like christian ethics and I haven't prayed since kindergarten.

There are 2 reasons why the whole discussion is somewhat useless: as soon as there's another problem that can be used to polarize, no one will talk about this one anymore, and until the next general election, 80% of the voters will have forgotten about it. It's just like in every ohter democracy.

You're being irrational. You guy should just leave Germany and move to the U.S., and bring lots and lots of German girls.

Sexy sexy German girls.

mr.hrundi wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

mr.hrundi wrote:

First - you guys are way to fast for me. By the time I typed one post there's 5 more to respond to...

Second - without any source to back it up I'd say that about 50% like that Christianity-remarks. As I said above, that has nothing to do with the power of religion, but with ethics. Yet, as it's used by politicians here at the moment, it's there to polarize. That old pro or contra game.
With several millon muslims Islam sure is a part of Germany and we can still be a nation based on christian ethics. I like christian ethics and I haven't prayed since kindergarten.

What would you say are the most prominent differences in Christian ethics and Islamic ethics as manifested in German life?

The reason I ask is because I don't see that much of a difference between the ethics of either.

I feel the same, there aren't any real diffences if you view it on a reasonable level. Looking at the extremist views there might be, but thankfully were far from implementing those in politics.

That Germany may be based more on christianity though is easily explained: when the thought of Germany was first founded there weren't enough Muslims here to really make a diffence.

Using islam as a scapegoat just makes the discussion more popular. It's easier to understand. There are enough immigrants from Russia who have the same problems as Turks for example - they aren't muslim though.

mr.hrundi wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

mr.hrundi wrote:

I feel the same, there aren't any real diffences if you view it on a reasonable level. Looking at the extremist views there might be, but thankfully were far from implementing those in politics.

That Germany may be based more on christianity though is easily explained: when the thought of Germany was first founded there weren't enough Muslims here to really make a diffence.

Using islam as a scapegoat just makes the discussion more popular. It's easier to understand. There are enough immigrants from Russia who have the same problems as Turks for example - they aren't muslim though.

Do you think immigration reform is likely to occur in Germany, or do you think they'll take an approach that encourages more assimilation by immigrants?

When the discussion goes on for another few months there will probably be some legislation passed. It will do neither good nor bad, but it will appease the masses. Integration is the real key, and it's being done. Not so much on the political level but more on a regional, sociological level. The Turkish president told immigrants in Germany to learn german and follow German laws, which is a step in the right direction.
Politics won't play a major part in this. Immigrants will eventually realize that they can only live a good life here if they respect the German society, especially with the current problems of the social system (aging population).

cpt.fass1 wrote:

It's weird that the intelligent people seem to try to integrate and relate to how the other side is doing. Then the other side gets accepted into the community and don't try to move towards the values of the better system. So the immigrants get there and try to breed as much as possible to have a voice down the line. But if their lifestyle was so great in their homeland, why are they bothering to leave? 

I don't understanding leaving a lifestyle that doesn't or didn't help them survive as a human being and then trying to make others fall into the side of rule?

cpt.fass1 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

cpt.fass1 wrote:

It's weird that the intelligent people seem to try to integrate and relate to how the other side is doing. Then the other side gets accepted into the community and don't try to move towards the values of the better system. So the immigrants get there and try to breed as much as possible to have a voice down the line. But if their lifestyle was so great in their homeland, why are they bothering to leave? 

I don't understanding leaving a lifestyle that doesn't or didn't help them survive as a human being and then trying to make others fall into the side of rule?

Well, it's kind of why immigration restrictions are important.  If you control the flow of immigration to the point that assimilation is more effective for the benefit of the majority culture, then fewer problems occur in this manner.

It also shows that culture is a more powerful force in human nature than logic.

I understand that. Basically immigration ceases to be Immigration if they come with demands. It at that point becomes an  invasion and should be treated as such. Honestly don't come from your shit country and try to get my great country to start following your rules and then call me racist if I don't want to.

mr.hrundi wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

mr.hrundi wrote:

When the discussion goes on for another few months there will probably be some legislation passed. It will do neither good nor bad, but it will appease the masses. Integration is the real key, and it's being done. Not so much on the political level but more on a regional, sociological level. The Turkish president told immigrants in Germany to learn german and follow German laws, which is a step in the right direction.
Politics won't play a major part in this. Immigrants will eventually realize that they can only live a good life here if they respect the German society, especially with the current problems of the social system (aging population).

Wouldn't it be more likely that Germany will eventually operate as a bilingual nation?  I know Germans generally already know multiple languages through schooling and trade but it looks like immigration from Turkey is pretty significant for Germany's overall population growth.

Germany does need immigration to support the social system and the economy, but accepting the language of immigrants as an official language would blow the whole thing out of proportion. Yes, there are many Turks in Germany, but those who don't try to integrate are only a part of them. Many are integrated, speak german, have a good education and a good job. The rest is a minority. A problematic minority, but a minority. It would be like having Chinese as official language in the US because of the Chinese immigrants.