Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6833|Texas - Bigger than France
How did the proxy war in 1980 work out for us?  We've already gone into Iraq...Iran is on deck no?

And no Americans fought in WWI and WWII in that proxy war right?  Why do you think the uboats shot our shit up and Japan bombed Pearl Harbor?

I know it works...sometimes (China in Vietnam)...but there are risks.

I guess I don't consider Yemen a proxy war because: 1) the size of the problem in Yemen is small, 2) tauting $70m of military aid is like what...a half a tank?
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6998|67.222.138.85

JohnG@lt wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


They have their place if for no other reason than fostering stability at home.
When have they ever managed to do that?

Proxy wars are never used in an isolationist policy. They are used when an interventionist wants to get in the middle of things, but can't justify actually putting significant numbers of armed troops on the ground (presumably because there is no valid justification).
So how would you handle the situation in Yemen?

article wrote:

...a bombing and shooting attack outside the U.S. Embassy in 2008 that killed 10 Yemeni guards and four civilians.
They have their own motivation. If they come to us and ask for military assistance to root out Al-Qaeda while pointing to instances like these saying "This is already what we have done on our own," then I don't see the problem.

It's not a proxy war, $70 mil is nothing to the U.S. and it is going to the aid of an ally, not to bribe someone into being our "ally". There is a big, big difference between paying someone off for the use of their local militia and giving money to a nation.
Commie Killer
Member
+192|6678

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

John, you and I might disagree on other topics, but on this, we definitely agree.
So you agreed with Rumsfelds strategy?
I agreed with the part where we aided foreign governments without actually invading countries.  I would much rather funnel arms or support in general to a government that we can negotiate with than actually invade some country.
Until that doesn't work and those same arms end up getting fired at us or used to massacre civilians. Granted it doesn't happen often, but when it does, its never pretty.
BVC
Member
+325|6986
70 million would buy 11 Abrams, or 30 T-90s.
Beduin
Compensation of Reactive Power in the grid
+510|6041|شمال
Yemen
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
Commie Killer
Member
+192|6678

Pubic wrote:

70 million would buy 11 Abrams, or 30 T-90s.
And considering that Yemen is probably more interested in T-55s or T-72s or a couple of Cessnas it should work out for them. In reality, a large portion of that money is going to go to training, Yemen has large military but the majority is relatively inept.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6696|North Carolina

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Unacceptable. If you're wait until all the bureaucracies are lined up you have waited too long. You wait as long as your country's bureaucracy needs to get its head out of its ass and then you exercise as much influence over the situation to your favor as possible. This notion of stick next to every other nation in the name of global unity is pointless, because it implies what other nations think about your country is meaningful. It's not. Do what is right by your country and your morals, not what everyone else says is right.

Be isolationist, period. There is no reason to bend to their will just because they are desperate for it. If you weren't going to do it before you shouldn't do it now. If you were going to do it before and you were waiting for them to beg, that's irresponsible and frankly reprehensible. If something needs to be done you should have done it.
And this is coming from someone who used to scoff at anyone who mentioned morals in their argument.

Well Flaming, if we go with the total isolationist route, then we'll see all of our foreign interests get compromised by countries that are willing to intervene where we aren't.

And what other countries think is meaningful by far, because it influences their trade decisions with respect to us.  Your logic is thoroughly flawed in your response.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6998|67.222.138.85

Turquoise wrote:

And this is coming from someone who used to scoff at anyone who mentioned morals in their argument.
Uh, no. I scoff at your idea of morals, because you turn morals into a synonym for pathos. You always assume the sanctity of life prevails over all other needs or natural laws with only an implied argument for the value of life.

Turquoise wrote:

Well Flaming, if we go with the total isolationist route, then we'll see all of our foreign interests get compromised by countries that are willing to intervene where we aren't.
And what other countries think is meaningful by far, because it influences their trade decisions with respect to us.

George Washington wrote:

Observe good faith and justice towards all nations; cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct; and can it be, that good policy does not equally enjoin it - It will be worthy of a free, enlightened, and at no distant period, a great nation, to give to mankind the magnanimous and too novel example of a people always guided by an exalted justice and benevolence. Who can doubt that, in the course of time and things, the fruits of such a plan would richly repay any temporary advantages which might be lost by a steady adherence to it ? Can it be that Providence has not connected the permanent felicity of a nation with its virtue ? The experiment, at least, is recommended by every sentiment which ennobles human nature. Alas! is it rendered impossible by its vices?

In the execution of such a plan, nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations, and passionate attachments for others, should be excluded; and that, in place of them, just and amicable feelings towards all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges towards another a habitual hatred or a habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable, when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur. Hence, frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests. The nation, prompted by ill-will and resentment, sometimes impels to war the government, contrary to the best calculations of policy. The government sometimes participates in the national propensity, and adopts through passion what reason would reject; at other times it makes the animosity of the nation subservient to projects of hostility instigated by pride, ambition, and other sinister and pernicious motives. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations, has been the victim.

So likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions; by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill-will, and a disposition to retaliate, in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld. And it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation), facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country, without odium, sometimes even with popularity; gilding, with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good, the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.

As avenues to foreign influence in innumerable ways, such attachments are particularly alarming to the truly enlightened and independent patriot. How many opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the public councils. Such an attachment of a small or weak towards a great and powerful nation dooms the former to be the satellite of the latter.

Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy to be useful must be impartial; else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests.

The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements, let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop. Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none; or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics, or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.

Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people under an efficient government. the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.

Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor or caprice?

It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world; so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it; for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs, that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat it, therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense. But, in my opinion, it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.

Taking care always to keep ourselves by suitable establishments on a respectable defensive posture, we may safely trust to temporary alliances for extraordinary emergencies.

Harmony, liberal intercourse with all nations, are recommended by policy, humanity, and interest. But even our commercial policy should hold an equal and impartial hand; neither seeking nor granting exclusive favors or preferences; consulting the natural course of things; diffusing and diversifying by gentle means the streams of commerce, but forcing nothing; establishing (with powers so disposed, in order to give trade a stable course, to define the rights of our merchants, and to enable the government to support them) conventional rules of intercourse, the best that present circumstances and mutual opinion will permit, but temporary, and liable to be from time to time abandoned or varied, as experience and circumstances shall dictate; constantly keeping in view that it is folly in one nation to look for disinterested favors from another; that it must pay with a portion of its independence for whatever it may accept under that character; that, by such acceptance, it may place itself in the condition of having given equivalents for nominal favors, and yet of being reproached with ingratitude for not giving more. There can be no greater error than to expect or calculate upon real favors from nation to nation. It is an illusion, which experience must cure, which a just pride ought to discard.
Put more succinctly:
"Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto." -Thomas Jefferson

Turquoise wrote:

Your logic is thoroughly flawed in your response.
Its your fixation on your idea of the ideal end result that is flawed. Sure isolationism doesn't work in the happy and bountiful Turquoiseland, but then maybe Turquoiseland assumes a land of happiness and bounty in the first place.
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6513|teh FIN-land
Proxy war apparently means selling weapons to an enemy of your enemy before they turn into your own enemy, which at least has the virtue of providing you with intel on what weapons your new enemies now have - since you can just look at the receipts.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6696|North Carolina

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Uh, no. I scoff at your idea of morals, because you turn morals into a synonym for pathos. You always assume the sanctity of life prevails over all other needs or natural laws with only an implied argument for the value of life.
Um...  you really don't know me well.  Where have I argued the sanctity of life?

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Its your fixation on your idea of the ideal end result that is flawed. Sure isolationism doesn't work in the happy and bountiful Turquoiseland, but then maybe Turquoiseland assumes a land of happiness and bounty in the first place.
Again, hearing you scoff at idealism is rather hypocritical on your part, given the fact that Washington's excerpt was nearly pure idealism, and just about every argument you use involves idealism rather than realism.

This isn't about Turquoiseland, Flaming.  This is about reality.  You know what happens when we don't get involved in a conflict that connects to our interests.  Even though I also lean in the isolationist direction, I still realize that a certain amount of interventionism is inevitable.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6397|eXtreme to the maX
The smart approach would be not to get into needing to fight a proxy war in the first place.
Fuck Israel
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6833|Texas - Bigger than France
Really?
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6998|67.222.138.85

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Uh, no. I scoff at your idea of morals, because you turn morals into a synonym for pathos. You always assume the sanctity of life prevails over all other needs or natural laws with only an implied argument for the value of life.
Um...  you really don't know me well.  Where have I argued the sanctity of life?
Everyone should be allowed access to healthcare, regardless of income.

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Its your fixation on your idea of the ideal end result that is flawed. Sure isolationism doesn't work in the happy and bountiful Turquoiseland, but then maybe Turquoiseland assumes a land of happiness and bounty in the first place.
Again, hearing you scoff at idealism is rather hypocritical on your part, given the fact that Washington's excerpt was nearly pure idealism, and just about every argument you use involves idealism rather than realism.

This isn't about Turquoiseland, Flaming.  This is about reality.  You know what happens when we don't get involved in a conflict that connects to our interests.  Even though I also lean in the isolationist direction, I still realize that a certain amount of interventionism is inevitable.
I wasn't talking about idealism. I am saying that your ideas depend on the world being in a good place to start with. Idealism is perfect application of political theory, not some nonexistent magical land.

Since when did I say we should never get involved? Did Washington say that? Did Jefferson say that? The political side of isolationism (since no one here is talking about economic isolationism, that would be dumb) is refraining from entangling alliances, not your idea of never leaving your borders. The idea is precisely to get involved with the conflicts that directly pertain to our interests.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6696|North Carolina

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Everyone should be allowed access to healthcare, regardless of income.
That's quality of life, not sanctity of life.  There's a difference.  Sanctity of life arguments are more typically used by people against abortion, euthanasia, etc.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

I wasn't talking about idealism. I am saying that your ideas depend on the world being in a good place to start with. Idealism is perfect application of political theory, not some nonexistent magical land.
Idealism is not that at all.  Idealism is what happens when you take an ideology and apply it uniformly to reality, which is why it doesn't usually work.  Realism is adapting said ideals to reality, because there are almost always exceptions to the rule.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Since when did I say we should never get involved? Did Washington say that? Did Jefferson say that? The political side of isolationism (since no one here is talking about economic isolationism, that would be dumb) is refraining from entangling alliances, not your idea of never leaving your borders. The idea is precisely to get involved with the conflicts that directly pertain to our interests.
If you're using that definition, then I have nothing to argue with you on.  I was assuming you meant the more idealized version of isolationism that mostly people like Ron Paul promote.

Still, that last sentence is open to interpretation, because what "directly pertains to our interests" is a matter of opinion.  I get the impression we might be closer to agreement than I originally expected concerning this, however.
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|6907|do not disturb

Turquoise wrote:

If you're using that definition, then I have nothing to argue with you on.  I was assuming you meant the more idealized version of isolationism that mostly people like Ron Paul promote.
There's a difference between isolationism and non-intervention. North Korea is an isolationist country. I don't think Ron Paul wants us to be anywhere near like that, just stop toying around throughout the world. Troubles seem to follow us when we do so.
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6513|teh FIN-land

Commie Killer wrote:

Until that doesn't work and those same arms end up getting fired at us or used to massacre civilians. Granted it doesn't happen often, but when it does, its never pretty.
Doesn't happen often? Hahahahahahahaha yeah right....happens all the fuckin time man.
Commie Killer
Member
+192|6678

ruisleipa wrote:

Commie Killer wrote:

Until that doesn't work and those same arms end up getting fired at us or used to massacre civilians. Granted it doesn't happen often, but when it does, its never pretty.
Doesn't happen often? Hahahahahahahaha yeah right....happens all the fuckin time man.
I could defend my position and pretend I was talking about first world nations too, but I wasn't, and your right. You'd think we'd learn by now, those arms were selling to Pakistan, Yemen, etc are gonna be turned against the wrong people eventually.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6998|67.222.138.85

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Everyone should be allowed access to healthcare, regardless of income.
That's quality of life, not sanctity of life.  There's a difference.  Sanctity of life arguments are more typically used by people against abortion, euthanasia, etc.
If you can't afford healthcare, then shoot them. There, now it's a sanctity of life issue.

My version of "quality of life" is not unnaturally and at times excessively extending the natural lifespan, the most prohibitively costly medical expenses. I don't really want to turn this into a healthcare debate (god knows we have enough of those) I'm just trying to point out that of course we both want to make an argument for "quality of life", but your idea of what quality is does stem from the idea that every individual life is valuable. In not so many words, the sanctity of life. That phrase also has a religious connotation that I do not intend.

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

I wasn't talking about idealism. I am saying that your ideas depend on the world being in a good place to start with. Idealism is perfect application of political theory, not some nonexistent magical land.
Idealism is not that at all.  Idealism is what happens when you take an ideology and apply it uniformly to reality, which is why it doesn't usually work.  Realism is adapting said ideals to reality, because there are almost always exceptions to the rule.
we go through this a lot, I hope to hash out a lot of it here

How is this word useful at all then...you have a word that is defined by something that is a specific and supremely stupid act?

Only a moron would try to directly take something they read out of a book and apply it word for word to the world around them. Why we even need to talk about why this is a bad idea I don't understand. There is no need for the word "realism" as per your definition because those that follow it function appropriately and those that don't we ignore.

Idealism is a way of discussing a way of thinking in generalities. It's not avoiding problems with the theory, it's avoiding problems with the theory that stem from localized or rare specifics for the intention of a meaningful discussion. It's not avoiding the exceptions to the rules, it's looking for the best solutions that solve the most problems, and leaving the relatively small details to be worked out by anyone willing to implement it.

An extremist is not necessarily a fundamentalist, and it's certainly not mutually exclusive to a pragmatist as you seem to be so sure. The "extreme" is on a relative scale to social temperaments, not any measurement of how useful their ideas are.

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Since when did I say we should never get involved? Did Washington say that? Did Jefferson say that? The political side of isolationism (since no one here is talking about economic isolationism, that would be dumb) is refraining from entangling alliances, not your idea of never leaving your borders. The idea is precisely to get involved with the conflicts that directly pertain to our interests.
If you're using that definition, then I have nothing to argue with you on.  I was assuming you meant the more idealized version of isolationism that mostly people like Ron Paul promote.

Still, that last sentence is open to interpretation, because what "directly pertains to our interests" is a matter of opinion.  I get the impression we might be closer to agreement than I originally expected concerning this, however.
It's the opinion of the President and/or Congress. I would look for competency in those offices first (or ways to achieve competency) before defining general rules for what "our interests" means.

In any case what we disagree on are proxy wars and "Well, the absolute best choice of all is to not get involved until you can get the majority of the world onboard for a multilateral invasion.  If you wait until things get so bad that very few countries can logically question your intervention, that's the best case scenario -- because then you have the latitude to do whatever is necessary to win."
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6696|North Carolina

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

If you can't afford healthcare, then shoot them. There, now it's a sanctity of life issue.

My version of "quality of life" is not unnaturally and at times excessively extending the natural lifespan, the most prohibitively costly medical expenses. I don't really want to turn this into a healthcare debate (god knows we have enough of those) I'm just trying to point out that of course we both want to make an argument for "quality of life", but your idea of what quality is does stem from the idea that every individual life is valuable. In not so many words, the sanctity of life. That phrase also has a religious connotation that I do not intend.
Well, the alternative is essentially saying that the rich deserve a longer, better life than everyone else.  You may not personally believe that, but if you think privatization is the answer, then for all practical purposes, you support that idea.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

How is this word useful at all then...you have a word that is defined by something that is a specific and supremely stupid act?

Only a moron would try to directly take something they read out of a book and apply it word for word to the world around them. Why we even need to talk about why this is a bad idea I don't understand. There is no need for the word "realism" as per your definition because those that follow it function appropriately and those that don't we ignore.

Idealism is a way of discussing a way of thinking in generalities. It's not avoiding problems with the theory, it's avoiding problems with the theory that stem from localized or rare specifics for the intention of a meaningful discussion. It's not avoiding the exceptions to the rules, it's looking for the best solutions that solve the most problems, and leaving the relatively small details to be worked out by anyone willing to implement it.

An extremist is not necessarily a fundamentalist, and it's certainly not mutually exclusive to a pragmatist as you seem to be so sure. The "extreme" is on a relative scale to social temperaments, not any measurement of how useful their ideas are.
Well, if you're saying that idealism is about generalities, then the ideal for someone pragmatic is not being extremist.  While "extremist" is a relative term, when someone is extremist compared to the majority of the populace, that usually involves ideas that aren't very useful, because most people won't support them.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

It's the opinion of the President and/or Congress. I would look for competency in those offices first (or ways to achieve competency) before defining general rules for what "our interests" means.
As voters, we can educate ourselves and define for ourselves what really matches our interests as a whole.  It helps define who we decide to put in power.

For example, I voted for Obama, but that doesn't mean that I just go along with what he defines as our interests.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6998|67.222.138.85

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

If you can't afford healthcare, then shoot them. There, now it's a sanctity of life issue.

My version of "quality of life" is not unnaturally and at times excessively extending the natural lifespan, the most prohibitively costly medical expenses. I don't really want to turn this into a healthcare debate (god knows we have enough of those) I'm just trying to point out that of course we both want to make an argument for "quality of life", but your idea of what quality is does stem from the idea that every individual life is valuable. In not so many words, the sanctity of life. That phrase also has a religious connotation that I do not intend.
Well, the alternative is essentially saying that the rich deserve a longer, better life than everyone else.  You may not personally believe that, but if you think privatization is the answer, then for all practical purposes, you support that idea.
They don't deserve it necessarily, they have earned it. Or they have earned a fifty foot yacht. Or both.

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

How is this word useful at all then...you have a word that is defined by something that is a specific and supremely stupid act?

Only a moron would try to directly take something they read out of a book and apply it word for word to the world around them. Why we even need to talk about why this is a bad idea I don't understand. There is no need for the word "realism" as per your definition because those that follow it function appropriately and those that don't we ignore.

Idealism is a way of discussing a way of thinking in generalities. It's not avoiding problems with the theory, it's avoiding problems with the theory that stem from localized or rare specifics for the intention of a meaningful discussion. It's not avoiding the exceptions to the rules, it's looking for the best solutions that solve the most problems, and leaving the relatively small details to be worked out by anyone willing to implement it.

An extremist is not necessarily a fundamentalist, and it's certainly not mutually exclusive to a pragmatist as you seem to be so sure. The "extreme" is on a relative scale to social temperaments, not any measurement of how useful their ideas are.
Well, if you're saying that idealism is about generalities, then the ideal for someone pragmatic is not being extremist.  While "extremist" is a relative term, when someone is extremist compared to the majority of the populace, that usually involves ideas that aren't very useful, because most people won't support them.
What you say and what you believe are two different things. A prince first and foremost keeps his people happy, but how he does it is largely irrelevant to his future goals.

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

It's the opinion of the President and/or Congress. I would look for competency in those offices first (or ways to achieve competency) before defining general rules for what "our interests" means.
As voters, we can educate ourselves and define for ourselves what really matches our interests as a whole.  It helps define who we decide to put in power.

For example, I voted for Obama, but that doesn't mean that I just go along with what he defines as our interests.
No, but you hope he is smart enough to define "our interests" better than the other guy. You have to vote for the best, that doesn't always mean you are voting for good.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6696|North Carolina

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

They don't deserve it necessarily, they have earned it. Or they have earned a fifty foot yacht. Or both.
...not the ones who inherit wealth.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

What you say and what you believe are two different things. A prince first and foremost keeps his people happy, but how he does it is largely irrelevant to his future goals.
I disagree entirely.  The means matter in terms of sustainability.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

No, but you hope he is smart enough to define "our interests" better than the other guy. You have to vote for the best, that doesn't always mean you are voting for good.
Fair enough...
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6998|67.222.138.85

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

They don't deserve it necessarily, they have earned it. Or they have earned a fifty foot yacht. Or both.
...not the ones who inherit wealth.
Then their relatives have earned it and passed it on as their choice. The mere possession of money through legal means is to have earned it, but as I said they may not deserve it.

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

What you say and what you believe are two different things. A prince first and foremost keeps his people happy, but how he does it is largely irrelevant to his future goals.
I disagree entirely.  The means matter in terms of sustainability.
Only if the means are poor.

You can reach a good goal with sour or even hypocritical means, and you can end up screwed with nothing but good intentions. Like a city, the destination is independent of the road you take to get there.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6696|North Carolina

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

They don't deserve it necessarily, they have earned it. Or they have earned a fifty foot yacht. Or both.
...not the ones who inherit wealth.
Then their relatives have earned it and passed it on as their choice. The mere possession of money through legal means is to have earned it, but as I said they may not deserve it.
Do you believe people on welfare have earned their money?  They possess money through legal means.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Only if the means are poor.

You can reach a good goal with sour or even hypocritical means, and you can end up screwed with nothing but good intentions. Like a city, the destination is independent of the road you take to get there.
I see what you're saying, but I would argue that sour and hypocritical means don't typically have a good track record of success.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6998|67.222.138.85

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


...not the ones who inherit wealth.
Then their relatives have earned it and passed it on as their choice. The mere possession of money through legal means is to have earned it, but as I said they may not deserve it.
Do you believe people on welfare have earned their money?  They possess money through legal means.
As much as anyone in our system has earned their money. I mean I am saying if there is no public healthcare and along those same lines reduced welfare and such then all money is earned. Social programs reduce the value of money as a whole, but each dollar is still worth just as much as every other dollar.

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Only if the means are poor.

You can reach a good goal with sour or even hypocritical means, and you can end up screwed with nothing but good intentions. Like a city, the destination is independent of the road you take to get there.
I see what you're saying, but I would argue that sour and hypocritical means don't typically have a good track record of success.
I would argue that typically people don't have success period. The 90% that fail using poor means doesn't discredit the 10% that succeed with poor means.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6696|North Carolina

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

As much as anyone in our system has earned their money. I mean I am saying if there is no public healthcare and along those same lines reduced welfare and such then all money is earned. Social programs reduce the value of money as a whole, but each dollar is still worth just as much as every other dollar.
Well, I think there's a logical problem with that.  In a literal sense, you are correct, but I think this is one of those "sum is bigger than the whole of the parts" things.

When lives hang in the balance, I think you have to make the distribution of services based on more than just a paycheck.  Perhaps, you see this as me using a sanctity of life argument, but I see it as practical for maintaining order.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

I would argue that typically people don't have success period. The 90% that fail using poor means doesn't discredit the 10% that succeed with poor means.
That's kind of a pessimistic assumption (yeah, I know, that sounded hypocritical on my part), but when it comes to running a small business, that ratio of failure is probably accurate.

And yeah, I agree that you can still succeed with really shady means...  it's just that failure is usually much messier with them.

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