BF2S Forums Under God

Have fun trying to get that through though.

I voted yes but I don't really care much tbh. God's name is on our money, behind the bench in our courthouses etc. etc. Are we going to remove all that stuff too?

I don't believe in God personally, I think if there was an attempt to remove God's name from the pledge most Christians would see it as an Anti-Christ type motive instead of it being about adapting to the increasingly diverse population of the U.S.

Last edited by El Beardo (2009-08-25 08:48:31)

T1g3r217 wrote:

The pledge is recited by schoolchildren everyday; those of them who do not believe in only one God are essentially being told that they do not fit in with the rest of America.

Yeah, I know....that was me.

I think that ideologically America will always be a Christian-nation but I do think that yes, for the sake of modernity and assuming a face that is more-suited to a 21st century super-power, America should completely drop all influences of the Church from the State and its representation/image. When you are so associated with Christianity and being a religious-nation, certain acts of state e.g. the Middle-Eastern conflicts, come across as more of a theological crusade than a political move. Especially doesn't help when you vote in Neo-Con Bible-bashing rednecks to front this... but hey, that's history. I think now you have Obama-mania it's a particularly good time to branch out and show that you're more than a nation of Puritan and denominational outcasts.

Take it out.  The United States is not and never was a Christian nation.

Treaty of Tripoli wrote:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Do it or don't, it's not a big deal. Most normal folk don't get their panties in a bunch over the "In God We Trust" on cash and coin, so ceremonial deism in this instance isn't that out of the ordinary. However, as was pointed out, it was added during the '50s so you can argue that it's more traditional with the words removed.

Coming from the Christian point of view, I agree that it is not representative of the current make-up of the US.  Although I believe in strong Christian values and what a true follower of Jesus stands for, I cannot tell the populace of the US to pledge to something they do not believe in.

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

It was forced through in the '50's by Christian lobbyists, don't see why it couldn't be taken out.

Never knew that +1 and I agree.

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

It felt rather fascistic and decidedly un-American to stand every day and put my hand over my heart as I pledged my unwavering loyalty to a piece of cloth and country.

My parents never allowed me to say the pledge in school.

Every morning before class started I had to recite 'Sé do bheatha a Mhuire' (Hail Mary) and Ár nAthair (Our Father). Count yourselves lucky it's only two bullshit words of brainrot you have to recite.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2009-08-25 13:04:17)

For it or against it is not that big a deal but it is symbolic, especially since the pledge was written by a christian socialist.
The pledge is recent, being adopted in 1942 and it has been changed a couple of times already so deleting the word god to make it more inclusive is probably a good idea.

wiki had some interesting stuff on the pledge

"The U.S. Congress officially recognized the Pledge as the official national pledge on June 22, 1942.

Students pledging to the flag in with the Bellamy salute.In 1940 the Supreme Court, in deciding the case of Minersville School District v. Gobitis, ruled that students in public schools could be compelled to swear the Pledge, even Jehovah's Witnesses like the Gobitases, who considered the flag salute to be idolatry. In the wake of this ruling, there was a rash of mob violence and intimidation against Jehovah's Witnesses. In 1943 the Supreme Court reversed its decision, ruling in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette that "compulsory unification of opinion" violated the First Amendment.

Swearing of the pledge is accompanied by a salute. An early version of the salute, adopted in 1892, was known as the Bellamy salute. It ended with the arm outstretched and the palm upwards. It eventually evolved to palm downward. Because of the similarity between the Bellamy salute and the Nazi salute, President Franklin D. Roosevelt instituted the hand-over-the-heart gesture as the salute to be rendered by civilians during the Pledge of Allegiance and the national anthem in the United States, instead of the Bellamy salute. This was done when Congress officially adopted the Flag Code on June 22, 1942." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance


When I saw the picture I thought it was the hitler youth.... not that far off I guess considering that those who oppose the language in it are demonized by social conservative-socialists.

I was raised atheist with an atheist mother and semi-budhist father. However I went to a Jesuit high school; we had a chapel in our school courtyard and a priesthouse. The priests lived at school and teached "religion" (which was not limited to Catholisism, but also discussed Judaism, Islam etc.), but also classes like Biology and one of them even used to swear like hell in front of the class. They were very very open minded, though I know they weren't some 50 years back. One of my teachers told me that in his youth they had to write "deo volente" above their exams or get beaten and recieve an 1 (on a scale of 10).

It's funny; I'm still a convinced atheist, always will be. I for sure would never say any pledge that includes a recognition of God. At the same time I have particular strong Christian "cultural ties", perhaps even more so than most people that are Christian (in a religious sense). E.g. I went to mass in Greece on Mt. Parnassos, frequently visit a friend's concerts who sings Russian orthodox liturgical chants, most of my friends are religious (though maybe not always practicizing).

No, it's a pointless argument, only the "raging" atheists give a damn.  I said the pledge every morning for a decade or so, and never gave it a second thought.

The whole idea of the pledge is somewhat outdated in itself, but changing it is stupid