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2009-07-21 09:56:53
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|7003|US
Bertster, did you see the NAS study on gun laws?  They found no indications of a causal correlation between restrictive gun laws and reduced crime.  It did find some correlation between reduced crime and community policing programs.

You mention inner cities.  I think the strongest factors there are population density and economic distribution.  Places like Alaska (with very high gun ownership) have low crime rates, whereas places like Chicago (with VERY little gun ownership, but a MUCH higher population density) have VERY high crime rates.  Also, the presence of organized crime (gangs) is a huge factor in crime rates.
2009-07-21 10:02:02
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6870|SE London

RAIMIUS wrote:

Bertster, did you see the NAS study on gun laws?  They found no indications of a causal correlation between restrictive gun laws and reduced crime.  It did find some correlation between reduced crime and community policing programs.
No, I haven't seen it. I would be interested to. Link?
2009-07-25 01:32:12
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|7003|US
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_ … mp;page=R1

Sorry for the delay.
2009-07-26 06:22:30
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6395|eXtreme to the maX

Bertster wrote:

It didn't. That's just nonsense. You are refering to the study carried out for the Countryside Alliance's Campaign for Shooting (a body who aren't even remotely biased). This study (which gives the most condeming results) shows the rate going up by 40% (which other studies don't - it rose, but not by that much) in the immediate aftermath of the ban. However, after a few years this rate fell dramatically. There was a bit of a crime spike in the mid-late 90's (around the time knife crime was a real problem), this has subsided and gun crime is plummeting (from what was a very low figure anyway). Gun crime has fallen by 31% over the past 2 years, knife crime is down nearly 50% since the peak in the mid 90's.
I have simply no idea where you get your made-up figures from.

According to the home office:
Gun crime - excluding airguns - increased dramatically after the 'handgun ban', practically doubled.

https://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj256/Dilbert_X/_44075309_f_arms_recorded_gra203.gif

Of guns used, again excluding airguns, handguns represented a large proportion.

https://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj256/Dilbert_X/_44395606_gun_crime_used203.gif

Pretty sure the use of handguns trebled in the years after the 'ban'.
Source http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6960431.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/p … _crime.pdf

And since 1998 the number of people injured by guns, excluding airguns, has more than doubled.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6372717.stm

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2009-07-26 06:25:05)

Fuck Israel
2009-07-27 08:02:05
Zombie_Affair
Amputee's...BOOP
+78|6104|Fattest Country in the world.

Macbeth wrote:

So does this prove that NJ needs tougher gun laws or does this prove tough Gun laws don't work.
Australia has tough gun laws and yet our country does just fine. I think the the whole "Right to bear arms" is where it goes wrong. Owning or using a Lethal weapon like that in Australia is not a Right, but a Privilege that is governed heavily. We do not give gun licences to people who don't need them.
2009-07-27 08:52:45
Krappyappy
'twice cooked beef!'
+111|7109
really, shooting at cops is a terrible idea.

unless you're being stopped along a deserted stretch of highway, you won't win. cops spawn in packs and are notorious for aggro.
2009-07-27 09:03:22
Red Forman
Banned
+402|5689

Zombie_Affair wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

So does this prove that NJ needs tougher gun laws or does this prove tough Gun laws don't work.
Australia has tough gun laws and yet our country does just fine. I think the the whole "Right to bear arms" is where it goes wrong. Owning or using a Lethal weapon like that in Australia is not a Right, but a Privilege that is governed heavily. We do not give gun licences to people who don't need them.
I agree.  I think your gun laws became the way they are after 1996 or so correct?  Some massacres and such yes?  I wish the US would adopt your program since it has worked.
2009-07-27 09:39:18
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6940|USA

Zombie_Affair wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

So does this prove that NJ needs tougher gun laws or does this prove tough Gun laws don't work.
Australia has tough gun laws and yet our country does just fine. I think the the whole "Right to bear arms" is where it goes wrong. Owning or using a Lethal weapon like that in Australia is not a Right, but a Privilege that is governed heavily. We do not give gun licences to people who don't need them.
Really? in Australia, as a law abiding citizen, you have no right to defend yourself? It is only a govt controlled privilege?o thanks, I do not desire a govt. that decides for me if I am worthy of self defense or not as a law abiding citizen.
2009-07-27 10:27:40
west-phoenix-az
Guns don't kill people. . . joe bidens advice does
+632|6678
The police are not required to protect you.
More often than not the police are documents crime, not preventing it.... and often not solving it either.
I'm glad I can own and carry a firearm, I believe its the best tool for self-defense. I know many others that carry too - its not a big deal. It's my opinion that many of you are brainwashed into thinking you don't need or shouldn't have a firearm.

Last edited by west-phoenix-az (2009-07-27 10:28:13)

https://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p123/west-phoenix-az/BF2S/bf2s_sig_9mmbrass.jpg
2009-07-27 17:41:04
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|6960|UK

west-phoenix-az wrote:

The police are not required to protect you.
More often than not the police are documents crime, not preventing it.... and often not solving it either.
I'm glad I can own and carry a firearm, I believe its the best tool for self-defense. I know many others that carry too - its not a big deal. It's my opinion that many of you are brainwashed into thinking you don't need or shouldn't have a firearm.
Have i watched Robocop too much or is to serve and PROTECT a running joke within OCP?
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
2009-07-27 18:33:07
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6694|North Carolina

Red Forman wrote:

Zombie_Affair wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

So does this prove that NJ needs tougher gun laws or does this prove tough Gun laws don't work.
Australia has tough gun laws and yet our country does just fine. I think the the whole "Right to bear arms" is where it goes wrong. Owning or using a Lethal weapon like that in Australia is not a Right, but a Privilege that is governed heavily. We do not give gun licences to people who don't need them.
I agree.  I think your gun laws became the way they are after 1996 or so correct?  Some massacres and such yes?  I wish the US would adopt your program since it has worked.
You'd have to change the Constitution first.
2009-07-27 18:34:32
Red Forman
Banned
+402|5689

Turquoise wrote:

Red Forman wrote:

Zombie_Affair wrote:


Australia has tough gun laws and yet our country does just fine. I think the the whole "Right to bear arms" is where it goes wrong. Owning or using a Lethal weapon like that in Australia is not a Right, but a Privilege that is governed heavily. We do not give gun licences to people who don't need them.
I agree.  I think your gun laws became the way they are after 1996 or so correct?  Some massacres and such yes?  I wish the US would adopt your program since it has worked.
You'd have to change the Constitution first.
Amendment
2009-07-27 21:36:15
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|7003|US
Yes...amendment to the Constitution, therefore, part of it...

RF, can you explain how a strict licensing system, implemented in the US, would reduce crime? 
Consider for a moment that there is a roughly 400 year firearm supply in the US, and that most firearms used in crimes are NOT legally possessed.
2009-07-28 07:08:11
Red Forman
Banned
+402|5689

RAIMIUS wrote:

Yes...amendment to the Constitution, therefore, part of it...

RF, can you explain how a strict licensing system, implemented in the US, would reduce crime? 
Consider for a moment that there is a roughly 400 year firearm supply in the US, and that most firearms used in crimes are NOT legally possessed.
Australia did it.  And it worked.  Use that as a base and adjust as necessary.
2009-07-28 08:22:03
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6395|eXtreme to the maX
RF, can you explain how a strict licensing system, implemented in the US, would reduce crime?
Strict licensing, mandatory secure storage, harsh penalties for criminals - works fine in most countries.
Would take ~50 years to take effect in the US though.
Fuck Israel
2009-07-28 12:52:10
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,057|7060|PNW

AussieReaper wrote:

Hurricane2k9 wrote:

We should also ban fertilizer and gasoline. Because Timothy McVeigh killed a lot more people with that stuff (and a rental truck (maybe we should ban those too)) than anyone has with a gun.
Guess you missed the memo, guns are designed to kill people. Gasoline and fertilisers are not.
I think his point is that banning guns isn't going to obliterate murder.

Also, fixed.
2009-07-28 17:31:43
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6694|North Carolina

Red Forman wrote:

RAIMIUS wrote:

Yes...amendment to the Constitution, therefore, part of it...

RF, can you explain how a strict licensing system, implemented in the US, would reduce crime? 
Consider for a moment that there is a roughly 400 year firearm supply in the US, and that most firearms used in crimes are NOT legally possessed.
Australia did it.  And it worked.  Use that as a base and adjust as necessary.
Regardless of whether or not it could work here, I seriously doubt you'd be able to convince the majority of the population to give up their guns.
2009-07-29 06:45:32
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6395|eXtreme to the maX
I seriously doubt you'd be able to convince the majority of the population to give up their guns.
Don't need to, just license, register and impose secure storage requirements, require reporting of thefts, restrict on-selling.
No-one needs to give up their guns, but hopefully fewer will get into criminals hands.
Fuck Israel
2009-07-29 08:46:43
krazed
Admiral of the Bathtub
+619|7069|Great Brown North

Dilbert_X wrote:

I seriously doubt you'd be able to convince the majority of the population to give up their guns.
Don't need to, just license, register and impose secure storage requirements, require reporting of thefts, restrict on-selling.
No-one needs to give up their guns, but hopefully fewer will get into criminals hands.
the problem with what you're suggesting is that it's a well known, and much spoken of, jumping point for a total ban using the registry to confiscate.
multiple politicians have openly admitted this in both the US and Canada
and as such it will be HEAVILY fought against

I have no problem with licensing and making sure the guns aren't just laying on desk drawer, they make quick release safes for a reason!

as for the restricting of selling... that's what the firearms license would be for
2009-08-06 15:08:06
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5874

Once again, if anyone cares they released the video of the start of the shootout and the police raid on the building.
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2009/0 … e_sur.html
It shows the suspects firing at the cops, it also have commentary by the police chief.

 

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