BF2S Forums Oh I am lovin' the hell outta this! We has an "image" problem

America does have an image problem. The question is do we let it dictate us and how much? Europe has an image problem over here too. They have since WWII. Maybe after we bury the last survivors we'll think about getting over it.

Kmarion wrote:

America does have an image problem. The question is do we let it dictate us and how much? Europe has an image problem over here too. They have since WWII. Maybe after we bury the last survivors we'll think about getting over it.

Well germany doesn't have a image problem and look what they did?  I for one would not give the steam off my piss for their opinions of us.

I think in America there is mainly an anti-French sentiment, with a growing anti-Europe sentiment.

Edit for Turq: Yes you're exactly right Turquoise. Mass media is massively subliminally influential on the mindless droves of apathetic plebs in each individual nation so there is only so much you can achieve by reaching out.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2009-06-02 14:40:31)

Turquoise wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Like I said poor people want to go to richer countries to put food on the table and they don't give a shit about politics or principles. I'm talking about the collective opinion of the world here, as survey upon survey reports. I'm not talking solely about the nations that suffer from massive emigration problems due to low standards of living. I've been to Panama a few times as I used to date a Panamanian girl and they did have a pro-US outlook - basically because they didn't give a fuck what the US did militarily or politically speaking as long as it didn't affect them to their detriment. If you really think that, on balance, the US doesn't have an image problem across large parts of the world then we are going to have to agree to disagree. Thousands of people don't march across burning American flags for no reason you know. Things like this don't happen for no reason:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3353/349 … ef.jpg?v=0

I mean why would someone have the energy to be bothered participating in something so pointless - they obviously felt very strongly about US actions, along with the millions of others who marched through London in this instance. Why would a journalist feel compelled to throw his bloody shoes at your president?

You have to keep a number of things in mind here.

First, while you are correct that the poor of the world like us because of the opportunity we can provide them if they move here and that much of the more educated and wealthy people of the world pay attention to our politics (and don't like much of what they see), there is something else at work as well....

Every country has propaganda.  For example, if you asked the average American about Iran, they couldn't tell you much, but many of them might say that they don't trust them.  Why?  Because a lot of our media makes Iran look bad.

Now, obviously, Iran does plenty of things to earn its negative image, but clearly, we have people in the media that would like us to not see Iran in a positive light (ahem, Zionists).

Then, you look at Iranian media, and they portray America and Israel negatively.  If you asked the average Iranian about America or Israel, they probably couldn't tell you much either, but they'd have a generally negative outlook on them as well.

The same things happen in European countries.  Human nature is the same regardless of culture, so the average person of any country isn't going to be that bright.  The only difference is that some countries have better education and freer media than others.  Still, even in an educated and free society, there is bias and propaganda.

There will be people who hate America no matter what we do, while others will like us unless we do something really bad.  Either way, our foreign policy has an effect on our image, but our actions are not solely to blame for our image.  Some of the blame can be put on propaganda.

The use of propaganda is generally more prevalent in places like the Middle East, since the average people of many countries there have low access to comprehensive education.

So, what Obama is doing is generally a positive thing for us by being more diplomatic.  We definitely agree on that.  The tricky part is that there will always be propaganda against us as well.

Damn, I feel so inadequate after that commentary.  But then again, I can't compose as well what with work and all while blogging.

CameronPoe wrote:

I think in America there is mainly an anti-French sentiment, with a growing anti-Europe sentiment.

Edit for Turq: Yes you're exactly right Turquoise. Mass media is massively subliminally influential on the mindless droves of apathetic plebs.

I have nothing against French women.   Or any European woman for that matter.

Last edited by Ilocano (2009-06-02 14:43:13)

if it wasnt for france attacking our navy you might still be a colony lol

FatherTed wrote:

if it wasnt for france attacking our navy you might still be a colony lol

Nah, it was just delaying the inevitable.  If the American Revolution didn't do it, it surely would have been something else.  Same way the "Empire" lost most of it's colonies.

CameronPoe wrote:

DB - America has a problem. The Muslim world has a long had very legitimate grievances with respect to US and general western involvement in their region. He is recognising that and putting his hand up. Hate him for the overspend but not the very much overdue apology and constructive attitude towards international affairs. PR is 9/10 of the battle. Of course the US could continue being antagonistic and non-constructive with these nations upon whose oil resources so much is dictated globally and see where that gets them.

The logical analysis goes like this:

1) Does the US have a poor image in the middle east? Yes.
2) Does the US have interests in the middle east? Yes.
3) Is there a chance that these actions might have a positive effect? Yes, maybe.
4) Does it cost the US anything to attempt to improve their image in the region through dialogue and embrace? No.
5) Has the status quo antagonism and poorly planned strongman attitude yielded results in terms of the US image in this pivotal region? Certainly not. And not just in the middle east but everywhere else too.

Pride can be a very ugly and counter-productive thing. The fact that lowing can't comprehend that the US has a very real image problem pretty much everywhere outside the US (assuming this from his inverted commas on the word image) shows how insular and oblivious he is. He's basically a poster boy for America's poor image globally. Stubborn, proud, ignorant and unconstructive. Of course I know for a fact he doesn't care about the image of the US outside of the US so him posting this article, which pertains to the US image globally, seems rather odd in that context.

Hey Cam! Hope you've been well. 
So it is really a holy war?  You admit it but alas the Muslim World =/= ME.  As to meddling in their region?  I ask you this.  What do you think of religion?  Which would be the most evil if you had to pick one?  Look at what Afghanistan taught the US.  You ignore it and it festers like a cancer biding its time until a catastrophic attack.  The best defense against the wackjobs is a good offense.

About the apologetic tour?  What did it get the US?  Jack.  Hell, Our President is bowing to Kings over there...  He just blessed AmIinajiahad's nuke conquest. What more do you want?

Explain how having pride in your country makes one stubborn, proud, ignorant and unconstructive? Tell me Cam -how are you constructive with suicide bombers?

As to acting in the best interest of it own prosperity?  Yea, forget pandering and damn the consequences.  Necessity is the mother of invention Cam.  If the envirowacks weren't as powerful over here, oil would be DIRT CHEAP.

Ilocano wrote:

FatherTed wrote:

if it wasnt for france attacking our navy you might still be a colony lol

Nah, it was just delaying the inevitable.  If the American Revolution didn't do it, it surely would have been something else.  Same way the "Empire" lost most of it's colonies.

Most were peaceful and many are still part of the commonwealth.

The US is the last of all the developed countries I would like to live in, and many developing countries are more desirable imo.

Last edited by DrunkFace (2009-06-02 15:11:44)

Ilocano wrote:

DrunkFace wrote:

Ilocano wrote:

Nah, it was just delaying the inevitable.  If the American Revolution didn't do it, it surely would have been something else.  Same way the "Empire" lost most of it's colonies.

Most were peaceful and many are still part of the commonwealth.

The US is the last of all the developed countries I would like to live in, and many developing countries are more desirable imo.

Have you ever visited NY, SF, San Diego?  Any of the New England states?  Parts of Florida like Boca Raton?

Never been to the states.

DrunkFace wrote:

Ilocano wrote:

FatherTed wrote:

if it wasnt for france attacking our navy you might still be a colony lol

Nah, it was just delaying the inevitable.  If the American Revolution didn't do it, it surely would have been something else.  Same way the "Empire" lost most of it's colonies.

Most were peaceful and many are still part of the commonwealth.

The US is the last of all the developed countries I would like to live in, and many developing countries are more desirable imo.

Eh...  it depends.  The U.K. used to rule a lot of Africa, and most areas weren't exactly peaceful.  They also used to run Palestine, which didn't end too peacefully either.

If nothing else, we set a precedent for independence and revolt, which inspired France in its own way.

As for life here, I can't blame you for not wanting to live here.  We are more dangerous than much of the First World in some areas.

On the other hand, we do have more personal freedoms than most countries -- even in the First World.

DBBrinson1 wrote:

Hey Cam! Hope you've been well. 
So it is really a holy war?  You admit it but alas the Muslim World =/= ME.  As to meddling in their region?  I ask you this.  What do you think of religion?  Which would be the most evil if you had to pick one?  Look at what Afghanistan taught the US.  You ignore it and it festers like a cancer biding its time until a catastrophic attack.  The best defense against the wackjobs is a good offense.

About the apologetic tour?  What did it get the US?  Jack.  Hell, Our President is bowing to Kings over there...  He just blessed AmIinajiahad's nuke conquest. What more do you want?

Explain how having pride in your country makes one stubborn, proud, ignorant and unconstructive? Tell me Cam -how are you constructive with suicide bombers?

As to acting in the best interest of it own prosperity?  Yea, forget pandering and damn the consequences.  Necessity is the mother of invention Cam.  If the envirowacks weren't as powerful over here, oil would be DIRT CHEAP.

Hi DB,
Personally I think very little of religion. I think that on balance it is more detrimental than beneficial, that it causes more problems than it solves. A band of hate-filled subhumans content to live in stone age conditions where diarrhoea is normal allowed some very intelligent hate-filled ideologues to train in their nation before launching an attack on the US that could very easily have been prevented. The US response played into their hands by allowing the US to be painted as invaders/aggressors/Zionist cohorts across not just Afghanistan but all the way from Morocco to Indonesia. The offence succeeding has not yet been demonstrated. Why do I say this? Well looking at it logically:

a) The US is the most militarily advanced nation on earth;
b) Al Qaeda and the Taliban live in the most basic of conditions relying on inferior weaponry and technology;
c) The US are still engaging in fighting in Afghanistan after 7 years in this David vs Goliath battle and have not stabilised the nation;
d) IN undertaking all of this, the US have managed to help destabilise the neighbouring country, which happens to be a nuclear power;
e) The average Arab or Muslim man - non-observant through moderate up to observant -  in the street anywhere in the world, instead of maybe having an ambivalent attitude to America, now generally has a negative attitude towards America.
f) There are no signs of this seemingly perpetual counter-productive pummeling of mud huts coming to an end. In fact a new front seems to be opening up in Pakistan.

Some form of military backlash was warranted to destroy what meagre infrastructure Al Qaeda had and to teach them a lesson. But I don't believe that even the superest of superpowers can win this war of attrition or transform a land stuck in the middle ages into a modern nation. It's just biting off more than anyone could possibly chew and it is not anyone's place to do it anyway.

Obama is not reaching out to nutjobs. He is trying to reach out to the rational and reasonable majority. Pride comes before a fall. So he bowed to a king. The last President walked through the park holding his bloody hand ffs. Pomp and ceremony is all a pile of toss. Obama never blessed Iranian nuclear intentions and he never aimed anything apologetic at the radicals. He is not trying to be constructive with suicide bombers - he ain't an idiot. On balance it is wise to engage in PR exercises in the hope that the ground becomes less fertile for NEW suicide bombers whilst at the same time mending fences at the political level. That's just basic logic.

And you're right necessity is the mother of invention. That's why we should be coming up with something OURSELVES so that we don't have to rely on buying fuel from parts of the world that are unreliable and in some places downright hostile.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2009-06-02 16:09:47)

DrunkFace wrote:

Ilocano wrote:

DrunkFace wrote:

Never been to the states.

My point exactly.  Visit those above places and I'm sure you'll get a liking.  Sure, you'll meet a few asshats here and there, but I'm sure you'll enjoy the experience.

I'm sure there are nice places... But the image of America is not a good one and the Lowings, Usmarines and co aren't making that image any better.

The Federal and State politics seem to leave a lot to be desired too.