IG-Calibre
comhalta
+226|7044|Tír Eoghan, Tuaisceart Éireann
one issue here in Northern Ireland that unites both Protestant and Catholics, Loyalist & Republican, Nationalist and dissenter is their vehement opposition to abortion, which is not, and, never has been available "on demand" here in the north.  Moves are being made to bring Northern Ireland legislation in unison with the rest of the UK to allow abortion here.  As always the heated debate revolves around the issue of "when does life begin?" I read this very interesting letter in todays newsletter from curious Christian

IAN Paisley's comment piece "Life must be protected" raises a very interesting point.

To many in the "religious community" the question surrounding abortion revolves around the issue of when life begins. Most claim "life begins at conception" but the scripture that Mr Paisley quotes suggests something different. Gen 2 v7 states: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the earth and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul."

That appears to be quite clear, man became a living soul when God breathed in the "breath of life". Therefore, it can be argued – from scripture – that life begins at the first breath.

Now I appreciate other scriptures tell us that we were knit together in our mother's womb, and that God knew us before we were born, but scripture is quite clear – breath was the life-giving feature.

In fact, it could be argued that before the "breath of life" man was just "dust of the earth". Life ends at the last breath, therefore it can be argued it begins at the first breath.

I appreciate that abortion and the issues surrounding it are emotive and are rarely impacted by logic but, unless of course some of our "religious" people would like to amend what the scriptures say, or even possibly set God right on the issue, it seems clear enough!
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/letters-to- … 4612132.jp

thoughts?
JahManRed
wank
+646|6930|IRELAND

I know several girls who had to travel to England to get an abortion. Having to travel for 6 hours, then get the op, then have to stay in a hotel and do another 6-7 hours travel home the next day. Making it all the more traumatic.

I don't see the issue. The DUP is always ranting on about the Union. If we are in a union why not have the same laws? I'm not saying I agree with it. Its just that thousands of girls are traveling to England from here every year anyway, so I don't see the point in our law being different.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6857
Life begins at 40.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6713|'Murka

Very hard to say. There are clinical and emotional/religious aspects to this issue, and the two are not at all in line.

The clinical answer would be "when the fetus is viable outside the womb". However, with medical advances, that is coming earlier and earlier in gestational age.

The emotional/religious answer would be "when the egg is fertilized".

IMO, the question is less when life begins and more what are the circumstances surrounding the situation leading to contemplation of abortion. Is the mother's life at risk? Is there an issue with the fetus that will result in pain and suffering of the baby if it is born? Parents make life and death decisions for their children all the time. If a child is hurt badly and is on life support, it's the parents' decision whether to continue that life support. So, there is precedence there.

Conversely, parents can't decide to just kill their child because they don't want them anymore...why would the same protections not be applied to a healty fetus in the womb?

There needs to be a balanced approach, with viable options for parents who don't want to keep their child that still protect the child's right to life.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6675|Kyiv, Ukraine
Like I tell my 2-year-old son...life begins at 30.  No drinking, dating, smoking, partying, or sex below the neck until then.
JahManRed
wank
+646|6930|IRELAND

GorillaTicTacs wrote:

Like I tell my 2-year-old son...life begins at 30.  No drinking, dating, smoking, partying, or sex below the neck until then.
No its 32. I tell my boy that he can legally work from 16, so he will owe me 16 years. I shall provide him with a detailed invoice with everything from Nappies and his first bike through to spot cream.

So he has 16 years to work for me before he is allowed out into the world.

Back on topic.
I am personally against abortion, but then again I am a man and I think its easier to be against it being male. Most of the females I know support the woman's right to choose.
Either way they should bring the N.Ireland law into line with the rest of the UK and stop this constant line of traumatised young girls having to cross the channel for it.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6592|Éire

CameronPoe wrote:

Life begins at 40.
Ouch!
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6455|what

There is no when. Because we define life to mean many things.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6408|eXtreme to the maX
Abortion is horrible, but somewhere between being a single cell organism and a fully viable child a reasonable line can be drawn and an informed decision can be taken.
Miscarriages happen, really these are natural abortions when the mothers body detects something undesirable in the fetus, or sometimes they just occur for some unknown reason (as I understand it).
If modern medicine can 'improve' that process then so be it, not that it makes it any more palatable.
And sometimes accidents happen and bringing a child into the world wouldn't do any of the parties any good.

However you look at it, I don't think some ranting bigot in a dress should be allowed to dictate this kind of thing.
Fuck Israel
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6831|Global Command
Life begins when you get the tab and she imagines removing  her panties for you.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6903|132 and Bush

The bible says it begins with a babies first breath.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6747|The Land of Scott Walker
Seems Curious Christian has forgotten Psalm 139:13
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6592|Éire

Stingray24 wrote:

Seems Curious Christian has forgotten Psalm 139:13
Is that the one about how menstruating women should be shunned? I can never remember.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6747|The Land of Scott Walker
Your internets don't have google?  

Psalm 139:13
"For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb."
SEREVENT
MASSIVE G STAR
+605|6409|Birmingham, UK

Dilbert_X wrote:

Miscarriages happen, really these are natural abortions when the mothers body detects something undesirable in the fetus, or sometimes they just occur for some unknown reason (as I understand it).
Miscarriadges happen because the human body tries and destroys anything foreign inside it, enerything ranging from a flu virus to a baby. Thats why they often happen in the first 3 months of pregnancy.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6592|Éire

Stingray24 wrote:

Your internets don't have google?  

Psalm 139:13
"For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb."
Does "inward parts" only include parts that point inwards? It's a bit vague, inside parts might have been a bit better, no?
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6747|The Land of Scott Walker
No, Merriam-Webster dictionary defines "inward" as situated on the inside.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6592|Éire

Stingray24 wrote:

No, Merriam-Webster dictionary defines "inward" as situated on the inside.
Is that the one the authors of the bible consulted when they were writing the 'good' book. I didn't see any mention of it in the bibliography.

In fact the bible is a very poorly referenced piece of work come to think of it, if you handed that up as a project submission to any self respecting college they'd throw it back in your face!
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6747|The Land of Scott Walker
Since we are both English speaking gents I thought it best to refer to an English dictionary rather than Hebrew.   Discussing the authors of the Bible is fascinating, but a bit off topic.  Life beginning at conception, however, is on topic and is my answer on this one.
IG-Calibre
comhalta
+226|7044|Tír Eoghan, Tuaisceart Éireann

Stingray24 wrote:

Seems Curious Christian has forgotten Psalm 139:13

curious christian wrote:

.... Now I appreciate other scriptures tell us that we were knit together in our mother's womb
Knit / wove = same thing
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6903|132 and Bush

Stingray24 wrote:

Your internets don't have google?  

Psalm 139:13
"For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb."
Then he said to me, "Prophesy to these bones and say to them, 'Dry bones, hear the word of the LORD! 5 This is what the Sovereign LORD says to these bones: I will make breath [a] enter you, and you will come to life. 6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the LORD.' ".

It sounds like life begins with the first breath according to (this part) of the bible.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6857
Life actually begins upon fertilisation, but I don't regard that as entirely relevant to the question of abortion. I think the ability to survive unaided is the important factor.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6903|132 and Bush

Another according to the bible.

Genesis 2:7: “And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
jord
Member
+2,382|6980|The North, beyond the wall.
It should be allowed everywhere, but there's a lot of backwards religious run countries out there, so I'll settle for the modernising of N.Ireland for this year.
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6793|Northern California
Life starts when cells combine, technically since it is "growing."  I personally and spiritually believe that around 2-3 weeks into it when the heart beats, you have a living soul.

As for the poor scriptural reference citing the first souls who God gave breath and created living souls, that is unapplicable since children are not created that way..they are created in utero. 

As for those with experience, mothers, they KNOW when there's a life in them if they're sensitive to it.  There's no mistaking the moment when the spirit enters that tiny little embryo and gives it life.  But murdering, insensitive, mutant humans who don't regard life with any sanctity need the child to survive on it's own, or count to ten before it's a viable life form.  THis is a sad world.  Under any other condition, that little life has meaning, purpose, and should be protected at any cost...except if it's in some stupid slut who got knocked up again and wants it out of her.

As for "choice" to protect their bodies and choose for themselves what to do, they made their choice when they had unprotected sex.  After that, they are including another life and are therefore MURDERING a life.  It's that simple.

CameronPoe wrote:

Life actually begins upon fertilisation, but I don't regard that as entirely relevant to the question of abortion. I think the ability to survive unaided is the important factor.
So in your "natural selection" theory, if your beloved parents, siblings, or other relatives can't support themselves, they too are less than human?  They should be yanked from this mortal coil?


Stingray24 wrote:

Your internets don't have google?  

Psalm 139:13
"For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb."
Jeremiah 1:5 is a good scripture discussing the pre-mortal life of the spirit..which does enter the body at some point during pregnancy:

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Last edited by IRONCHEF (2008-10-21 10:46:57)

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