BF2S Forums Just A Bit Of Razor Blade Torture In The Name Of Freedom & Liberty

Braddock wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Braddock wrote:

I notice that not many people here ever seem very concerned about whether or not these stories might be true, they seem happier to completely refute the claims out of hand rather than discuss the matters properly and take the accusations seriously.

Of course there is concern. Those are serious accusations...but they are just that: accusations.

The nature of the accusation doesn't mean you abandon equal application of the "innocent until proven guilty" doctrine.

We're almost on the same page FEOS, it's the unequal application of the "innocent until proven guilty" doctrine that concerns me too.

But it only seems to concern you when it's unequal in one direction. That may not actually be the case, but it certainly appears that way.

FEOS wrote:

Braddock wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Of course there is concern. Those are serious accusations...but they are just that: accusations.

The nature of the accusation doesn't mean you abandon equal application of the "innocent until proven guilty" doctrine.

We're almost on the same page FEOS, it's the unequal application of the "innocent until proven guilty" doctrine that concerns me too.

But it only seems to concern you when it's unequal in one direction. That may not actually be the case, but it certainly appears that way.

Well I suppose that's similar to how I accused you in the Israel thread of always staunchly defending Israel's innocence until proven guilty while not putting as much effort into defending the Palestinian's innocence until proven guilty. All I can say to you is that I believe in the concept of innocent until proven guilty, even if it might seem that I do not in certain scenarios. I also believe in scrutinizing the powers that be to keep them on their toes and fully accountable and I take accusations of abuse of power very seriously.

Braddock wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Braddock wrote:

We're almost on the same page FEOS, it's the unequal application of the "innocent until proven guilty" doctrine that concerns me too.

But it only seems to concern you when it's unequal in one direction. That may not actually be the case, but it certainly appears that way.

Well I suppose that's similar to how I accused you in the Israel thread of always staunchly defending Israel's innocence until proven guilty while not putting as much effort into defending the Palestinian's innocence until proven guilty. All I can say to you is that I believe in the concept of innocent until proven guilty, even if it might seem that I do not in certain scenarios. I also believe in scrutinizing the powers that be to keep them on their toes and fully accountable and I take accusations of abuse of power very seriously.

Have you seen me defend an Israeli assassination?

Military operations don't involve "innocent until proven guilty", as the individual operations don't involve accusations of wrong-doing (the rhetoric surrounding them might, but the ops themselves do not).

You and I are generally in agreement. I just believe in equal application of the concept, regardless of which side makes the accusations.

usmarine wrote:

why are you and Cam so self-righteous?

do you know how much money is exchanged between Ireland and the evil US?  maybe you two should spend your time writing your government and asking them to stop doing business with the evil US.

Why do you feel the need to be so silent on things? It is the job of the people to give their Government a hard time and keep them on their toes, not slap them on the back and shower them with praise. That is how things are achieved and that is how standards are maintained. I thought an American of all people would appreciate that.

Why don't you deal with the topic in hand instead of turning yet another debate into a "you hate America!" moan-fest? I sometimes get the impression you wish we had Soviet style censorship on this forum when it comes to all matters involving the US Government.

Braddock wrote:

usmarine wrote:

why are you and Cam so self-righteous?

do you know how much money is exchanged between Ireland and the evil US?  maybe you two should spend your time writing your government and asking them to stop doing business with the evil US.

Why do you feel the need to be so silent on things? It is the job of the people to give their Government a hard time and keep them on their toes, not slap them on the back and shower them with praise. That is how things are achieved and that is how standards are maintained. I thought an American of all people would appreciate that.

Why don't you deal with the topic in hand instead of turning yet another debate into a "you hate America!" moan-fest? I sometimes get the impression you wish we had Soviet style censorship on this forum when it comes to all matters involving the US Government.

the guy was not picked up at wal-mart shopping for TP.  people are always innocent arent they? 

i see them doing their job, whether you agree with the m3thods, they are doing something.

usmarine wrote:

Braddock wrote:

usmarine wrote:

why are you and Cam so self-righteous?

do you know how much money is exchanged between Ireland and the evil US?  maybe you two should spend your time writing your government and asking them to stop doing business with the evil US.

Why do you feel the need to be so silent on things? It is the job of the people to give their Government a hard time and keep them on their toes, not slap them on the back and shower them with praise. That is how things are achieved and that is how standards are maintained. I thought an American of all people would appreciate that.

Why don't you deal with the topic in hand instead of turning yet another debate into a "you hate America!" moan-fest? I sometimes get the impression you wish we had Soviet style censorship on this forum when it comes to all matters involving the US Government.

the guy was not picked up at wal-mart shopping for TP.  people are always innocent arent they? 

i see them doing their job, whether you agree with the m3thods, they are doing something.

So if it turned out that they did in fact use razor blade torture would you regard that as "just doing their job" and have no problem with that?

usmarine wrote:

razor blades to slice people up is not acceptable imo.  threatening them with razor blades is acceptable imo.  we do not know what they did.

Or whether they did anything at all.

First it was waterboarding that was tolerable, now threats of razor blades are tolerable. I just don't like the direction the mentality of Western countries is going in this new era, we're turning into the enemy. This shit belongs in Saudi Arabia, not the US, UK or  Europe.

usmarine wrote:

Braddock wrote:

usmarine wrote:

razor blades to slice people up is not acceptable imo.  threatening them with razor blades is acceptable imo.  we do not know what they did.

Or whether they did anything at all.

First it was waterboarding that was tolerable, now threats of razor blades are tolerable. I just don't like the direction the mentality of Western countries is going in this new era, we're turning into the enemy. This shit belongs in Saudi Arabia, not the US, UK or  Europe.

they do it in saudi because a women showed her arm.  this is a tad bit different

Well Western countries use it to find out whether people are guilty are not...nice eh?

You have the right to remain silent
You do not have the right to an attorney
You have the right to have your balls sliced
You have the right to have threats made against your family...

Maybe your Government can exchange notes with your Saudi buddies next time they're having a love-in.

usmarine wrote:

those rights are for law abiding american citizens.  nowhere does it say suspected terrorists are included.  what the hell is wrong with you throwing all these stupid ass "liberty" and "god bless" lines?  it is so lame tbh.

Why do you have such a problem computing the point I am trying to make for you? Do the US and UK security ONLY arrest guilty people? Fuck me, they must be good if they have a 100% record.

And by the way those rights are not for law abiding citizens, they are for ANYONE who gets arrested. Then a case is built and then it usually goes to court and put before a jury and then they are usually found guilty or innocent and if they are guilty a punishment is decided. Except in the case of someone suspected of anything related to terrorism, in which case all that is skipped and the authorities do what they like without fear of retribution.

Last edited by Braddock (2008-08-22 10:22:05)

usmarine wrote:

Braddock wrote:

usmarine wrote:

those rights are for law abiding american citizens.  nowhere does it say suspected terrorists are included.  what the hell is wrong with you throwing all these stupid ass "liberty" and "god bless" lines?  it is so lame tbh.

Why do you have such a problem computing the point I am trying to make for you? Do the US and UK security ONLY arrest guilty people? Fuck me, they must be good if they have a 100% record.

no, you must miss the point that with terrorists, they arent guilty until they blow shit up right?  this is trying to prevent it.  jesus dude, what do you want?

I couldn't give a fuck about what happens to terrorists and extremists, you could burn them for all I care. Just prove they're terrorists first...that's all I ask.

Braddock wrote:

I couldn't give a fuck about what happens to terrorists and extremists, you could burn them for all I care. Just prove they're terrorists first...that's all I ask.

what's to say that the govt doesn't have video of the guy planting a bomb or has correspondence with other people with names/dates/places of next attack?  it's not like the CIA drives around in a van and abducts random people off the street.  the dude was doing something really bad, they have evidence enough to indicate such and now they are trying to extract more information to get the command chain above him. 

as far as the methods used to extract information, this is of course debateable.  how does one get information from someone committed to NOT delivering that to you?  what is left?  should we just hold him in a cell until he confesses?  should we release him to fight another day?  should we not care about what he has in his head as actionable intelligence that may prevent you from dying in another bus bombing (yeah i know you don't live in london, Braddock). 

my point is that these guys are interrogated because the govt has actionable intelligence indicating that these people are bad guys. 

further, nobody seems to answer the question of 'how else to get this information from someone you have in custody'.

usmarine wrote:

why are you and Cam so self-righteous?

do you know how much money is exchanged between Ireland and the evil US?  maybe you two should spend your time writing your government and asking them to stop doing business with the evil US.

I will answer because Braddock and Cam won't.

It is because they hate the fact that America is the big dog on the block and their country is irrelevant.  It eats them alive to know that America can look out for its interests in the world and does so unapologetically despite the whimpers of European governments.  What really pissed off Europe ( and Euro-peons) was that unlike Clinton, Bush was willing to say fuck you to Germany, Russia, and France and invaded Iraq anyway thus fucking up all their oil contracts, labor agreements, and weapon deals they had with this obviously dangerous dictator who had them all in his hip pocket.

So, like the Marine said, if you don't like it bitch to YOUR government because Bush really doesn't give a fuck what you think.

Last edited by Lotta_Drool (2008-08-22 10:59:34)