paul386
Member
+22|6267
With all the hype around the development and introduction of the Chevy Volt, I would like to open up a discussion on the differences between series and parallel hybrid powertrains. A series powertrain uses an electric motor power by a battery pack to drive the vehicle. The battery pack is charged by an additional electric motor coupled to an internal combustion engine (ICE). In contrast, a parallel hybrid powertrain uses an electric motor coupled to an ICE to drive the car, either in tandem (both electric and ICE), electric only, or gasoline only.

Proponents of series hybrids typically point to the ability to run the ICE at near optimal output, increasing the efficiency of the ICE. They also point to a more efficient drive line which typically has a simpler transmission.

However, series hybrid powertrains have considerable shortcomings, which is why I believe they are inferior to parallel hybrid powertrains:

1. Series hybrids require at least 3 engines, 2 electric and 1 gasoline. However, only 1 of these engines actually power the vehicles forward motion. The other two engines are used to charge the battery pack only. This obviously increases the cost, weight, and size of the vehicle, a major problem.

2. Energy conversion. In a series hybrid vehicle energy starts out in the form of chemical energy (gasoline) and is turned into mechanical energy by the ICE. The coupled electric motor then converts this mechanical energy into electric potential energy. The batteries receive this energy and turn it into chemical energy which is stored in the battery. Then energy then is turned into electric potential energy by the batteries. From here the electric potential energy travels to the electric motor to be turned into mechanical energy and power the vehicle. This is a lot of energy conversions, with each conversion eating away at the energy due to conversion inefficiencies. The losses sustained in the energy conversion trumps any potential gain from operating the ICE at optimal output.

3. Reliability. With 3 engines onboard the vehicle you now have potential for many more problems. With all of the vehicles energy traveling through the charging circuits, high voltage (HV) wiring, and batteries, you create a lot of wear. This is especially profound with the batteries, which lose their ability to hold charge as time goes on.

4. Poor use of energy. In a series hybrid system you are only using a fraction of the vehicles total power to drive the wheels. If for example you had a 100kW electric motor to drive the car, a 85kW ICE engine to drive the charge electric motor, and a 85kW electric motor to charge the batteries then you have a total of 270kW of power production, but you are only using 37% of it to drive the vehicle!

Just like with series hybrid powertrains, parallel systems have regenerative braking and can utilize the ICE to charge the batteries when necessary. However, a parallel system surpasses the series system because it allows for the gasoline and electric motor to be used in tandom when high levels of power are required. In low speed, low power, city driving the vehicle can use only the highly efficient electric motor to propel the car. Leaving the gas motor off. When the vehicle reaches higher cruising speeds it can turn to the well suiting ICE to propel the vehicle. This system allows for the vehicle to meet the power and efficiency demands of the driver.

Parellel hybrid systems are especially suited for racing, where they will be introduced to the 2009 Formula 1 league. A Formula 1 race car has a very powerful (and very efficient) ICE. The vehicle cannot go to full power when accelerating until approximately 100MPH because it does not have enough traction to keep the tires from spinnings below those speeds. This means that the vehicles powertrain is waisting energy while it accelerates to 100MPH. With a hybrid powertrain the race car can use that excess energy to charge a capacitor bank (or spin up a flywheel). Once the vehicle reaches a high enough speed and can use all of its ICE power to propel the car it can turn to the accumulated energy and "boost" the car even faster.

In another case the race car cannot use its power is turning. It this case the vehicle not only has to slow down (losing energy) but it cannot use its engine at full power. With a parallel hybrid system the vehicle can employ regenerative braking as well as unused engine power to charge the capacitors (or spin the flywheel). As the vehicle comes out of the turn it can now accerate extremely quickly with both the ICE and the electric motor, giving it a rapid "boost" to its maximum speed again.

Thus parallel hybrid systems are extremely well suited for racing and high performance applications allow them to not only achieve a higher peak power output, but also nearly 100% total ICE engine out.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6427|North Carolina
Are there any parallel hybrids that are readily available to the common consumer?
paul386
Member
+22|6267

Turquoise wrote:

Are there any parallel hybrids that are readily available to the common consumer?
The Toyota Prius would be the first to come to mind.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6427|North Carolina
What gets me is that they don't exactly specify what kind of hybrid you're getting when you buy from a dealership.  I didn't know any of this stuff until you posted it.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6467|The Land of Scott Walker
paul386
Member
+22|6267

Turquoise wrote:

What gets me is that they don't exactly specify what kind of hybrid you're getting when you buy from a dealership.  I didn't know any of this stuff until you posted it.
Well they try to essentially dumb it down for the buyer. The results are significantly different though!

Series hybrids are much simpler to design (which is probably why GM is using it for the Volt) and often appeal to eco-minded people because they seem more like an electric car with a "range extender".

Parallel hybrids are more complicated to design because they require sophisticated computer control system to balance the power between the gas and electric motor. However they offer a lot more benefits to the driver.

Another kind of hybrid appearing on the market is the "mild hybrid" which is most prevalent in Chevy Malabu hybrid. A Mild Hybrid is simply a beefed up starter motor which allows the engine to be turned off when at a stop light, while keeping air conditioning running and such. The idea behind mild hybrids is that you are picking all of the low fruit off the tree for free, without the express of reaching the stuff on the top.
paul386
Member
+22|6267

Stingray24 wrote:

Tesla Model S ftw ...

http://www.leftlanenews.com/tesla-plans … range.html
Problem with electric vehicles is storing the energy. Batteries have very high cost and very lower energy / power density compared to gasoline. That is a major problem that is going to have to be solved before electric cars are a better solution over hybrid.
liquix
Member
+51|6476|Peoples Republic of Portland
Like the above poster says, as soon as batteries or super capacitors can store more energy per kilogram than gasoline, they will explode upon the world market like an atomic bomb.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6623|132 and Bush

paul386 wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

Tesla Model S ftw ...

http://www.leftlanenews.com/tesla-plans … range.html
Problem with electric vehicles is storing the energy. Batteries have very high cost and very lower energy / power density compared to gasoline. That is a major problem that is going to have to be solved before electric cars are a better solution over hybrid.
It looks like the Chevy volt has overcome this. Well. rephrase.. the range is much shorter on strictly battery (40 miles). But that is plenty for most commuters. The average commute is something like 19 miles per the DOT. The range is extended to over 300 miles when the on board generator automatically kicks in.
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paul386
Member
+22|6267

Kmarion wrote:

paul386 wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

Tesla Model S ftw ...

http://www.leftlanenews.com/tesla-plans … range.html
Problem with electric vehicles is storing the energy. Batteries have very high cost and very lower energy / power density compared to gasoline. That is a major problem that is going to have to be solved before electric cars are a better solution over hybrid.
It looks like the Chevy volt has overcome this. Well. rephrase.. the range is much shorter on strictly battery (40 miles). But that is plenty for most commuters. The average commute is something like 19 miles per the DOT. The range is extended to over 300 miles when the on board generator automatically kicks in.
But at a cost of $50,000 the Volt is only expected to average around 40-50MPG. Something easily achievable on the $21,000 Prius. This was my point. Series hybrid costs more and gives less performance. It does however, appeal to the eco-minded people who see it as an electric vehicle which can plug into the wall and draw power from an unlimited and magical source.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6623|132 and Bush

paul386 wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

paul386 wrote:

Problem with electric vehicles is storing the energy. Batteries have very high cost and very lower energy / power density compared to gasoline. That is a major problem that is going to have to be solved before electric cars are a better solution over hybrid.
It looks like the Chevy volt has overcome this. Well. rephrase.. the range is much shorter on strictly battery (40 miles). But that is plenty for most commuters. The average commute is something like 19 miles per the DOT. The range is extended to over 300 miles when the on board generator automatically kicks in.
But at a cost of $50,000 the Volt is only expected to average around 40-50MPG. Something easily achievable on the $21,000 Prius. This was my point. Series hybrid costs more and gives less performance. It does however, appeal to the eco-minded people who see it as an electric vehicle which can plug into the wall and draw power from an unlimited and magical source.
The goal is to be less than $30,000 although initially it could be up to 40k. They simply haven't got a number yet.
http://gm-volt.com/chevy-volt-faqs/
Q: How much will the car cost?
A: Goal is to be less than $30,000, but first versions might be closer to $40,000.
Anything under 40 miles is zero gas. Put that in your mpg pipe and smoke it .

Edit: for the rest of your "magical source cost" response you might refer to this.
http://gm-volt.com/chevy-volt-reasons-f … operation/
The map above shows the average retail price of electricity in the U.S. by state in 2003. It ranges from around 6 cents/KWH to 17 cents/KWH. The U.S. average for 2007 is 10.65 cents. To see the numbers for the current year click here. If we use the average, the cost to recharge the Volt will be $0.85, and the range for 2007 will be from 48 cents to $1.34 depending where you live. Clearly for 40 miles of driving at present gas and electric prices, there will be a very significant cost savings. Of course, there is some uncertainty of where these numbers will be when the Volt arrives in 2010.
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paul386
Member
+22|6267

Kmarion wrote:

paul386 wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

It looks like the Chevy volt has overcome this. Well. rephrase.. the range is much shorter on strictly battery (40 miles). But that is plenty for most commuters. The average commute is something like 19 miles per the DOT. The range is extended to over 300 miles when the on board generator automatically kicks in.
But at a cost of $50,000 the Volt is only expected to average around 40-50MPG. Something easily achievable on the $21,000 Prius. This was my point. Series hybrid costs more and gives less performance. It does however, appeal to the eco-minded people who see it as an electric vehicle which can plug into the wall and draw power from an unlimited and magical source.
The goal is to be less than $30,000 although initially it could be up to 40k. They simply haven't got a number yet.
http://gm-volt.com/chevy-volt-faqs/
Q: How much will the car cost?
A: Goal is to be less than $30,000, but first versions might be closer to $40,000.
Anything under 40 miles is zero gas. Put that in your mpg pipe and smoke it .

Edit: for the rest of your "magical source cost" response you might refer to this.
http://gm-volt.com/chevy-volt-reasons-f … operation/
The map above shows the average retail price of electricity in the U.S. by state in 2003. It ranges from around 6 cents/KWH to 17 cents/KWH. The U.S. average for 2007 is 10.65 cents. To see the numbers for the current year click here. If we use the average, the cost to recharge the Volt will be $0.85, and the range for 2007 will be from 48 cents to $1.34 depending where you live. Clearly for 40 miles of driving at present gas and electric prices, there will be a very significant cost savings. Of course, there is some uncertainty of where these numbers will be when the Volt arrives in 2010.
The Volt has a 16kwH battery pack. At a reasonable 80% charge rate you would use closer to $2.13 for 40 miles of driving (using the 10.65 cents per KwH). The Prius at a combined 46 MPG can go 40 miles on approximately .87 gallons of gasoline, or about $3.48. At an MSRP of $21,500 the Prius would be a cheaper car to operate until you traveled 548,148 miles (using $40,000 for the Chevy Volt). That is assuming that you only drive 40 miles at a time so you never have to tap into that gasoline engine and that is assuming your lithium ion battery pack lasts you those 550,000 miles!

Math:

Volt: $40,000
Prius: $21,500
Difference: $18,500

Cost per 40 miles of Volt: $2.13
Cost per mile of Volt: $.05325
Cost per 40 miles of Prius: $3.48
Cost per mile of Prius: $.087
Difference (in cost per mile): $0.03375

.03375*x = 18,500
x = 548,148

Driving 40 miles per day and recharging the Volt at night you will have yourself a money saver after 38.5 years!

Remember, that is assuming you only go 40 miles at a time on the Volt so you never touch that expensive to operate gas engine and that is also assuming your battery pack goes 550,000 miles! Which isn't going to happen.

Last edited by paul386 (2008-07-28 21:28:08)

Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6623|132 and Bush

Most people do less than 40 miles. I'm going to look for the specific stat from the dot. I think it was something like 79 percent.

Assuming you use the entire full 40 miles, which the vast majority does not, the cost would be $.85 to $1.34 (At the most $40 a month) The volt is being developed around emerging technology thus rendering your math irrelevant. You are again assuming the price of a vehicle that has yet to be released. They have publicly stated they are shooting for under 30k.  If the fuel cost a month are less than filling up half my tank now I'm betting most people could swing the few thousand dollar difference to avoid buying this thing.
https://i33.tinypic.com/8z3gio.jpg

.. as opposed to:

https://i35.tinypic.com/1zxv8cj.jpg

https://i33.tinypic.com/ndttzo.jpg
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Commie Killer
Member
+192|6409
Jesus Christ, what law demands that all of these cars have virtually no ass end of the car.
paul386
Member
+22|6267

Kmarion wrote:

Most people do less than 40 miles. I'm going to look for the specific stat from the dot. I think it was something like 79 percent.

Assuming you use the entire full 40 miles, which the vast majority does not, the cost would be $.85 to $1.34 (At the most $40 a month) The volt is being developed around emerging technology thus rendering your math irrelevant. You are again assuming the price of a vehicle that has yet to be released. They have publicly stated they are shooting for under 30k.  If the fuel cost a month are less than filling up half my tank now I'm betting most people could swing the few thousand dollar difference to avoid buying this thing.
It doesn't matter if you do 1 mile, 2 miles, 13 miles, or 39.21453534 miles. The math works out the same, as long as you stay under the 40 mile part. Over 40 miles it gets much uglier for the Volt. I am not sure what this emerging technology is? Is it a portable counterfeit machine or something? The math is solid. Parallel hybrid powertrains are superior to series.

Considering that the Lithium Ion battery will only carry around half the original capacity at 50k miles (at very best) you will be losing before you win.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6623|132 and Bush

paul386 wrote:

Math:

Volt: $40,000 Initial cost. As the market opens up the target will be under 30k
Prius: $21,500
Difference: $18,500 An eventual difference of around 9k and very rarely needing to go to a gas station (EZ win for volt)

Cost per 40 miles of Volt: $2.13  er.. no. Try as low as .48 for a full charge. Not too mention you'd save milage by not actually driving to a gas station..lol
Cost per mile of Volt: $.05325
Cost per 40 miles of Prius: $3.48
Cost per mile of Prius: $.087
Difference (in cost per mile): $0.03375

.03375*x = 18,500
x = 548,148

Driving 40 miles per day and recharging the Volt at night you will have yourself a money saver after 38.5 years! If you'd use the real numbers you'd probably come to a different conclusion.
It's the battery technology that is improving as we speak. You know.. one of the reasons the volt hasn't been released yet?

Yea, your math is irrelevant until we have conclusive numbers regarding the new more efficient batteries. There are three companies currently working for GM R&D battery research.

The extra 320 miles on the generator (It's actually a 360 range) only comes into play on the rare occasion you find your self exceeding the 40 miles.

Like I said anything to avoid this:
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Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6697|Canberra, AUS

paul386 wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

paul386 wrote:


Problem with electric vehicles is storing the energy. Batteries have very high cost and very lower energy / power density compared to gasoline. That is a major problem that is going to have to be solved before electric cars are a better solution over hybrid.
It looks like the Chevy volt has overcome this. Well. rephrase.. the range is much shorter on strictly battery (40 miles). But that is plenty for most commuters. The average commute is something like 19 miles per the DOT. The range is extended to over 300 miles when the on board generator automatically kicks in.
But at a cost of $50,000 the Volt is only expected to average around 40-50MPG. Something easily achievable on the $21,000 Prius. This was my point. Series hybrid costs more and gives less performance. It does however, appeal to the eco-minded people who see it as an electric vehicle which can plug into the wall and draw power from an unlimited and magical source.
Which makes no sense given that the electricity is more than likely coming from coal, which is far more greenhouse-polluting than oil ever will be.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6623|132 and Bush

Electrical power plants are centralized facilities. They are much more efficient power producers than millions of gasoline engines polluting the atmosphere every day. I would like to see a move towards more renewable energy though.

Consider this also.

Also, Tesla has a whitepaper
http://www.teslamotors.com/display_data … urycar.pdf
that compares their Roadster (high-performance sports car EV) to a Prius, with the Roadster running on coal generated from the the least efficient coal burning power plants built in the 1950s. Even under this doubly unfair comparison, the carbon footprint of the Roadster is better than the Prius by a wide margin.

Note that this is all without carbon capture. Adding carbon capture makes coal even greener.
That almost 1/3 the carbon footprint of a Prius.
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Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6738

Spark wrote:

paul386 wrote:

Kmarion wrote:


It looks like the Chevy volt has overcome this. Well. rephrase.. the range is much shorter on strictly battery (40 miles). But that is plenty for most commuters. The average commute is something like 19 miles per the DOT. The range is extended to over 300 miles when the on board generator automatically kicks in.
But at a cost of $50,000 the Volt is only expected to average around 40-50MPG. Something easily achievable on the $21,000 Prius. This was my point. Series hybrid costs more and gives less performance. It does however, appeal to the eco-minded people who see it as an electric vehicle which can plug into the wall and draw power from an unlimited and magical source.
Which makes no sense given that the electricity is more than likely coming from coal, which is far more greenhouse-polluting than oil ever will be.
Only in Australia lol. Australia really needs to get nuclear energy =/ Taiwan just built an uber safe and efficeint one in the capital with 6 million people Now that's when you know the shit is safe
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6623|132 and Bush

cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:

Spark wrote:

paul386 wrote:

But at a cost of $50,000 the Volt is only expected to average around 40-50MPG. Something easily achievable on the $21,000 Prius. This was my point. Series hybrid costs more and gives less performance. It does however, appeal to the eco-minded people who see it as an electric vehicle which can plug into the wall and draw power from an unlimited and magical source.
Which makes no sense given that the electricity is more than likely coming from coal, which is far more greenhouse-polluting than oil ever will be.
Only in Australia lol. Australia really needs to get nuclear energy =/ Taiwan just built an uber safe and efficeint one in the capital with 6 million people Now that's when you know the shit is safe
No, you know your shit is safe when you forget you have got nuclear powered subs trolling around the world for decades.
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Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6738

Kmarion wrote:

cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:

Spark wrote:


Which makes no sense given that the electricity is more than likely coming from coal, which is far more greenhouse-polluting than oil ever will be.
Only in Australia lol. Australia really needs to get nuclear energy =/ Taiwan just built an uber safe and efficeint one in the capital with 6 million people Now that's when you know the shit is safe
No, you know your shit is safe when you forget you have got nuclear powered subs trolling around the world for decades.
That too
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6729|67.222.138.85

Kmarion wrote:

cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:

Spark wrote:


Which makes no sense given that the electricity is more than likely coming from coal, which is far more greenhouse-polluting than oil ever will be.
Only in Australia lol. Australia really needs to get nuclear energy =/ Taiwan just built an uber safe and efficeint one in the capital with 6 million people Now that's when you know the shit is safe
No, you know your shit is safe when you forget you have got nuclear powered subs trolling around the world for decades.
In the biggest vat of damage and radiation control substance on the planet.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6623|132 and Bush

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:

Only in Australia lol. Australia really needs to get nuclear energy =/ Taiwan just built an uber safe and efficeint one in the capital with 6 million people Now that's when you know the shit is safe
No, you know your shit is safe when you forget you have got nuclear powered subs trolling around the world for decades.
In the biggest vat of damage and radiation control substance on the planet.
That would be the safe part ...
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Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6729|67.222.138.85

Kmarion wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Kmarion wrote:


No, you know your shit is safe when you forget you have got nuclear powered subs trolling around the world for decades.
In the biggest vat of damage and radiation control substance on the planet.
That would be the safe part ...
Cyborg said safe in a context that meant reliable. I assumed yours meant the same. Apparently yours meant if the thing goes boom, no one gets hurt. Cyborg's never went boom in the first place.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6623|132 and Bush

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

In the biggest vat of damage and radiation control substance on the planet.
That would be the safe part ...
Cyborg said safe in a context that meant reliable. I assumed yours meant the same. Apparently yours meant if the thing goes boom, no one gets hurt. Cyborg's never went boom in the first place.
Have things been going boom that I don't know about?
My point is what a stupid hysteria ppl have regarding nuclear energy. You just decided to come in and stink up the place.


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