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2007-04-06 13:28:11
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6893|The Land of Scott Walker
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … 02306.html

Thursday, April 5, 2007; Page A16
HOUSE SPEAKER Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) offered an excellent demonstration yesterday of why members of Congress should not attempt to supplant the secretary of state when traveling abroad. After a meeting with Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad in Damascus, Ms. Pelosi announced that she had delivered a message from Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert that "Israel was ready to engage in peace talks" with Syria. What's more, she added, Mr. Assad was ready to "resume the peace process" as well. Having announced this seeming diplomatic breakthrough, Ms. Pelosi suggested that her Kissingerian shuttle diplomacy was just getting started. "We expressed our interest in using our good offices in promoting peace between Israel and Syria," she said.
Only one problem: The Israeli prime minister entrusted Ms. Pelosi with no such message. "What was communicated to the U.S. House Speaker does not contain any change in the policies of Israel," said a statement quickly issued by the prime minister's office. In fact, Mr. Olmert told Ms. Pelosi that "a number of Senate and House members who recently visited Damascus received the impression that despite the declarations of Bashar Assad, there is no change in the position of his country regarding a possible peace process with Israel." In other words, Ms. Pelosi not only misrepresented Israel's position but was virtually alone in failing to discern that Mr. Assad's words were mere propaganda.

Ms. Pelosi was criticized by President Bush for visiting Damascus at a time when the administration -- rightly or wrongly -- has frozen high-level contacts with Syria. Mr. Bush said that thanks to the speaker's freelancing Mr. Assad was getting mixed messages from the United States. Ms. Pelosi responded by pointing out that Republican congressmen had visited Syria without drawing presidential censure. That's true enough -- but those other congressmen didn't try to introduce a new U.S. diplomatic initiative in the Middle East. "We came in friendship, hope, and determined that the road to Damascus is a road to peace," Ms. Pelosi grandly declared.

Never mind that that statement is ludicrous: As any diplomat with knowledge of the region could have told Ms. Pelosi, Mr. Assad is a corrupt thug whose overriding priority at the moment is not peace with Israel but heading off U.N. charges that he orchestrated the murder of former Lebanese prime minister Rafiq al-Hariri. The really striking development here is the attempt by a Democratic congressional leader to substitute her own foreign policy for that of a sitting Republican president. Two weeks ago Ms. Pelosi rammed legislation through the House of Representatives that would strip Mr. Bush of his authority as commander in chief to manage troop movements in Iraq. Now she is attempting to introduce a new Middle East policy that directly conflicts with that of the president. We have found much to criticize in Mr. Bush's military strategy and regional diplomacy. But Ms. Pelosi's attempt to establish a shadow presidency is not only counterproductive, it is foolish.
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http://newsbusters.org/node/11873
http://newsbusters.org/node/11870

Message to Speaker Pelosi: how do you know when you've put your foot in it? When David Gregory and Matt Lauer respectfully cite VP Cheney's criticism of you.

Discuss.
2007-04-06 13:39:54
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6977|Global Command
It seems the Dems are all about law and order only when it suits them to be so, specifically when someone else is breaking a law. That is, they want enforcement only if one of their opponents break the law. But, if a Dem breaks the law, then the Dems are all about forgiveness.

Nancy Pelosi's trip to Syria is a good case in point. Here is the relevent reference from the Logan Act (TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 45 > ยง 953):
Any citizen of the United States, wherever he (or she) may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.
Since the President made it clear that Pelosi should not go to Syria for talks with Ba'athist dictator Bashar al-Assad, she is clearly in breach of federal law.

Contrary to what the Dems and the libs would have us believe, Pelosi is not above the law. She should immediately be removed from her position as Speaker of the House and brought up on charges for violation of the Logan Act.

But the Dems will not even think of doing so. For them, the culture of corruption is only within the Republican ranks, not within their own party, even when one of their own is caught hiding bribe money in a freezer.
2007-04-06 13:45:28
fadedsteve
GOP Sympathizer
+266|6938|Menlo Park, CA
ATG you are just aching for a +1!! So I gave you one!! Nice work on bringing the FACTS to the table

Pelosi is a fucking C ee   U    N ext  T hursday!!!!
2007-04-06 13:48:16
Hunter/Jumper
Member
+117|6802
you need more than the MTV 4 minute attention span to take it all in, so its a major victory for democrats with lots of sound bytes. Did they give them a Signed Michale Jordan basketball, Like clinton gave North Korea? Worked so well.
2007-04-06 13:50:21
(T)eflon(S)hadow
R.I.P. Neda
+456|7277|Grapevine, TX
you guys are great... + 1 for all and all I pray will see the truth [soon!]
2007-04-06 14:11:36
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6821|Kyiv, Ukraine
Is it just me, or are more and more editorials being posted as news these days?
2007-04-06 14:16:04
(T)eflon(S)hadow
R.I.P. Neda
+456|7277|Grapevine, TX

GorillaTicTacs wrote:

Is it just me, or are more and more editorials being posted as news these days?
I agree, news isn't news its sensationalism. Entertainment, opinions, etc.
2007-04-06 14:42:31
fadedsteve
GOP Sympathizer
+266|6938|Menlo Park, CA

GorillaTicTacs wrote:

Is it just me, or are more and more editorials being posted as news these days?
Your right!! The LA times, and The New York Times (two of the most read newspapers in the country) constantly are taking editorals as facts these days. . . .

I wonder which way they're slant lies. . . .
2007-04-06 17:27:27
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6977|Global Command

fadedsteve wrote:

Your right!! The LA times, and The New York Times (two of the most read newspapers in the country) constantly are taking editorals as facts these days. . . .
QFE X3
2007-04-06 17:38:01
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7049|132 and Bush

Here is a fact. The role of Congress per the Constitution of the United States is domestic. Period.. end of story. If this had been an employee of any other job a screw up like that would have cost them their position.

Diplomacy FTL... lol

Last edited by Kmarion (2007-04-06 17:38:42)

Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-04-06 18:34:47
Masques
Black Panzer Party
+184|7170|Eastern PA
It would seem that Darrell Issa (R-CA) and Joe Pitts (R-CA) have also gone to Syria to meet Pres. Assad.

Arlen Specter (R-PA) visited Syria back in December 06 and met with Assad.

This all seems to be somewhat of a manufactured issue given that Syria isn't at war with the US and there has been cooperation by them with western nations (including the US) against terror.

EDIT: Add to the list Frank Wolf (R-VA) and Robert Aderholt (R-AL)

Last edited by Masques (2007-04-06 18:41:47)

2007-04-06 19:28:10
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6977|Global Command

Masques wrote:

It would seem that Darrell Issa (R-CA) and Joe Pitts (R-CA) have also gone to Syria to meet Pres. Assad.

Arlen Specter (R-PA) visited Syria back in December 06 and met with Assad.

This all seems to be somewhat of a manufactured issue given that Syria isn't at war with the US and there has been cooperation by them with western nations (including the US) against terror.

EDIT: Add to the list Frank Wolf (R-VA) and Robert Aderholt (R-AL)
The difference is they didn't claim to be carrying a diplomatic message, which is against the law if not authorized.
2007-04-06 19:43:47
Canin
Conservative Roman Catholic
+280|6923|Foothills of S. Carolina

Come on now ATG, you know that they will leave that fact out when trying to defend what Pelosi did. You know its all about weaving the truth and lies together to get your views across. Both sides do it.
2007-04-06 19:44:32
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7049|132 and Bush

Masques wrote:

It would seem that Darrell Issa (R-CA) and Joe Pitts (R-CA) have also gone to Syria to meet Pres. Assad.

Arlen Specter (R-PA) visited Syria back in December 06 and met with Assad.

This all seems to be somewhat of a manufactured issue given that Syria isn't at war with the US and there has been cooperation by them with western nations (including the US) against terror.

EDIT: Add to the list Frank Wolf (R-VA) and Robert Aderholt (R-AL)
you doubt what I say? Or perhaps you are just pointing out others who do not understand our Constitution. That is a weak way of justifying what she did. Aside from being out of line in her role she carried an incorrect message from one foreign state to another. There are specific reasons we have qualified people in those positions. Pelosi just emphasized that while she was out embarrassing America.

Last edited by Kmarion (2007-04-06 19:51:31)

Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-04-06 20:59:22
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6977|Global Command
Felony.


http://opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110009908
2007-04-06 21:20:51
Masques
Black Panzer Party
+184|7170|Eastern PA

ATG wrote:

The difference is they didn't claim to be carrying a diplomatic message, which is against the law if not authorized.
They did, particularly Issa and Specter. Personally I have no problems with any of them doing such things.

Where your (and the Wall Street Journal editorial) run into problems is with the definition of "United States" in the Logan Act. Presumably that term refers to the United States Government and policy matters enacted by such an entity, which is comprised of the 3 co-equal branches. "United States" refers to more than just the President and his inner circle.

Congresspersons and Senators are just as much agents of the government as executive branch personnel. Unless you want to make the argument that the Legislative and Judicial branches are not "the United States".

EDIT: I would also add if indeed Pelosi served as an intermediary between Israel and Syria then no laws were broken as she would be acting on behalf of the Israelis.

Last edited by Masques (2007-04-06 21:25:02)

2007-04-06 21:22:11
acEofspadEs6313
Shiny! Let's be bad guys.
+102|7140|NAS Jacksonville, Florida

Masques wrote:

ATG wrote:

The difference is they didn't claim to be carrying a diplomatic message, which is against the law if not authorized.
They did, particularly Issa and Specter. Personally I have no problems with any of them doing such things.

Where your (and the Wall Street Journal editorial) run into problems is with the definition of "United States" in the Logan Act. Presumably that term refers to the United States Government and policy matters enacted by such an entity, which is comprised of the 3 co-equal branches. "United States" refers to more than just the President and his inner circle.

Congresspersons and Senators are just as much agents of the government as executive branch personnel. Unless you want to make the argument that the Legislative and Judicial branches are not "the United States".

Kmarion wrote:

Here is a fact. The role of Congress per the Constitution of the United States is domestic. Period.. end of story. If this had been an employee of any other job a screw up like that would have cost them their position.

Diplomacy FTL... lol
2007-04-06 21:26:43
Masques
Black Panzer Party
+184|7170|Eastern PA

acEofspadEs6313 wrote:

Masques wrote:

ATG wrote:

The difference is they didn't claim to be carrying a diplomatic message, which is against the law if not authorized.
They did, particularly Issa and Specter. Personally I have no problems with any of them doing such things.

Where your (and the Wall Street Journal editorial) run into problems is with the definition of "United States" in the Logan Act. Presumably that term refers to the United States Government and policy matters enacted by such an entity, which is comprised of the 3 co-equal branches. "United States" refers to more than just the President and his inner circle.

Congresspersons and Senators are just as much agents of the government as executive branch personnel. Unless you want to make the argument that the Legislative and Judicial branches are not "the United States".

Kmarion wrote:

Here is a fact. The role of Congress per the Constitution of the United States is domestic. Period.. end of story. If this had been an employee of any other job a screw up like that would have cost them their position.

Diplomacy FTL... lol
See Edit.
2007-04-06 21:27:04
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6977|Global Command
If she wants to make speaches in front of the House and on Cspan, fine, that is her perogative. She has been rebuked by the Israelis she claimed to speak for and we can all read the text of the Logan act; how in Gods name can you defend that cunt?

She is in effect trying to establish a shadow presidency. " Don't worry, we can do business. Soon we'll be rid of that bastard Bush. "

She is also desperate to be THE female player. She is trying to upstage Hillary. Don't you think she'd like to be president too?

Hopefully, democrats will only succeed in showing they are utterly incapable of running our government. Republicans have already show that, maybe we can get a third party finally.

I gotta give her this much: I actually hate Pelosi more than Clinton at this point.
2007-04-06 21:28:31
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7049|132 and Bush

Masques wrote:

ATG wrote:

The difference is they didn't claim to be carrying a diplomatic message, which is against the law if not authorized.
They did, particularly Issa and Specter. Personally I have no problems with any of them doing such things.

Where your (and the Wall Street Journal editorial) run into problems is with the definition of "United States" in the Logan Act. Presumably that term refers to the United States Government and policy matters enacted by such an entity, which is comprised of the 3 co-equal branches. "United States" refers to more than just the President and his inner circle.

Congresspersons and Senators are just as much agents of the government as executive branch personnel. Unless you want to make the argument that the Legislative and Judicial branches are not "the United States".

EDIT: I would also add if indeed Pelosi served as an intermediary between Israel and Syria then no laws were broken as she would be acting on behalf of the Israelis.
The only way Congress can impact foreign affairs is with the checkbook (Aid and trade).

In the area of domestic legislation, the Constitution creates a detailed, finely wrought procedure in which Congress plays the central role. In foreign affairs, however, the Constitution does not establish a mandatory, detailed, Congress-driven procedure for taking action.

Congress passes laws and determines how money is spent.

Last edited by Kmarion (2007-04-06 21:32:19)

Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-04-06 21:29:01
acEofspadEs6313
Shiny! Let's be bad guys.
+102|7140|NAS Jacksonville, Florida

Masques wrote:

acEofspadEs6313 wrote:

Masques wrote:

They did, particularly Issa and Specter. Personally I have no problems with any of them doing such things.

Where your (and the Wall Street Journal editorial) run into problems is with the definition of "United States" in the Logan Act. Presumably that term refers to the United States Government and policy matters enacted by such an entity, which is comprised of the 3 co-equal branches. "United States" refers to more than just the President and his inner circle.

Congresspersons and Senators are just as much agents of the government as executive branch personnel. Unless you want to make the argument that the Legislative and Judicial branches are not "the United States".

Kmarion wrote:

Here is a fact. The role of Congress per the Constitution of the United States is domestic. Period.. end of story. If this had been an employee of any other job a screw up like that would have cost them their position.

Diplomacy FTL... lol
See Edit.
My bad.
2007-04-06 21:39:01
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7049|132 and Bush

Masques wrote:

EDIT: I would also add if indeed Pelosi served as an intermediary between Israel and Syria then no laws were broken as she would be acting on behalf of the Israelis.
Obviously she is using her position to bring about these talks. Do you think the average elderly woman could initiate such a dialog between these two? When she does that she is exploiting the office she serves.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-04-06 21:41:25
Masques
Black Panzer Party
+184|7170|Eastern PA

Kmarion wrote:

The only way Congress can impact foreign affairs is with the checkbook.

In the area of domestic legislation, the Constitution creates a detailed, finely wrought procedure in which Congress plays the central role. In foreign affairs, however, the Constitution does not establish a mandatory, detailed, Congress-driven procedure for taking action.
Congress in the aggregate yes. However, individuals are still agents of the government and as such still act in a kind of official capacity as members of the Federal Government. The Logan Act as written is incredibly vague and if taken literally would likely condemn more than a few corporate heads. A law that is enforced selectively is really of no use and is really rendered moot.

In theory that's how government is supposed to work, but most of us live in the real world.
2007-04-06 21:43:15
acEofspadEs6313
Shiny! Let's be bad guys.
+102|7140|NAS Jacksonville, Florida

Masques wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

The only way Congress can impact foreign affairs is with the checkbook.

In the area of domestic legislation, the Constitution creates a detailed, finely wrought procedure in which Congress plays the central role. In foreign affairs, however, the Constitution does not establish a mandatory, detailed, Congress-driven procedure for taking action.
Congress in the aggregate yes. However, individuals are still agents of the government and as such still act in a kind of official capacity as members of the Federal Government. The Logan Act as written is incredibly vague and if taken literally would likely condemn more than a few corporate heads. A law that is enforced selectively is really of no use and is really rendered moot.

In theory that's how government is supposed to work, but most of us live in the real world.
So does that mean members of the US military can go around and spew out things about foreign affaris as well?
2007-04-06 21:47:44
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7049|132 and Bush

Masques wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

The only way Congress can impact foreign affairs is with the checkbook.

In the area of domestic legislation, the Constitution creates a detailed, finely wrought procedure in which Congress plays the central role. In foreign affairs, however, the Constitution does not establish a mandatory, detailed, Congress-driven procedure for taking action.
Congress in the aggregate yes. However, individuals are still agents of the government and as such still act in a kind of official capacity as members of the Federal Government. The Logan Act as written is incredibly vague and if taken literally would likely condemn more than a few corporate heads. A law that is enforced selectively is really of no use and is really rendered moot.

In theory that's how government is supposed to work, but most of us live in the real world.
You think because you work for the government that gives you an all access pass to go globe trotting around the world fucking up an already shitting situation?

Last edited by Kmarion (2007-04-06 21:51:17)

Xbone Stormsurgezz

 

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