Braddock
Agitator
+916|6300|Éire

UGADawgs wrote:

I admit, I don't have experience living on so little that I qualify for welfare, but all the Europeans here have described it as "basic, average," etc. It seems like your welfare is enough to live on a small budget, so I don't see why lazy people wouldn't see your program as a free meal for the rest of their lives.
Well I cant think of one person I know who is happy to sit back and live a less than satisfying life on welfare, Ireland's unemployment rate for the last few years has been around 4-6%; not a level that would suggest everyone is clambering to get that welfare cheque. Even the estimated unemployment level for foreign nationals in this country is only 6.8% (a demographic that are often demonized as 'spongers', coming over from poorer EU nations to bleed our welfare system). I've never been on welfare myself and hopefully will never have to but I pay my taxes and if I ever find myself needing to avail of welfare I'll be comfortable in the knowledge that I've earned it (and I wouldn't begrudge it to my fellow european in their hour of need).

We also have a system in this country where you have to be seen to be actively seeking employment in order to continue to avail of welfare, organisations such as FÁS are very proactive in this area, providing training and assisting and such.

Last edited by Braddock (2007-02-27 14:55:57)

UGADawgs
Member
+13|6331|South Carolina, US

Braddock wrote:

UGADawgs wrote:

I admit, I don't have experience living on so little that I qualify for welfare, but all the Europeans here have described it as "basic, average," etc. It seems like your welfare is enough to live on a small budget, so I don't see why lazy people wouldn't see your program as a free meal for the rest of their lives.
Well I cant think of one person I know who is happy to sit back and live a less than satisfying life on welfare, Ireland's unemployment rate for the last few years has been around 4-6%; not a level that would suggest everyone is clambering to get that welfare cheque. Even the estimated unemployment level for foreign nationals in this country is only 6.8% (a demographic that are often demonized as 'spongers', coming over from poorer EU nations to bleed our welfare system). I've never been on welfare myself and hopefully will never have to but I pay my taxes and if I ever find myself needing to avail of welfare I'll be comfortable in the knowledge that I've earned it (and I wouldn't begrudge it to my fellow european in their hour of need).

We also have a system in this country where you have to be seen to be actively seeking employment in order to continue to avail of welfare, organisations such as FÁS are very proactive in this area, providing training and assisting and such.
The unemployment rates in France and Germany are around 9 percent, and while I can't directly attribute that to large social programs (oddly enough, Norway has a lower unemployment rate than the US), the way that you describe welfare in European nations makes it look like a pretty viable lifestyle for a person who hasn't succeeded in society. I'll admit, though, that I'm basically running off of the descriptions I've gotten from the forum when I'm talking about the welfare systems.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6565

superfly_cox wrote:

100% corrent and i'm dissappointed I didn't bring this up.  The US system is rough because it forces people to work hard and work until older ages to ensure their financial viability upon retirement.  In Europe there are big social problems coming because the social system is not prepared for the rapidly growing aging population.  Those working in europe today are not only paying for those unemployed and unmotived workers in their society but also those who are retiring at 55-60 and will live another 25-30 years. 

Eventually socialism will catch up to you.  Worker productivity decrease while workers/retirees expect social benefits to continue.  My question is, where's the money coming from?

And don't even get me started on the dangers that China and India will pose economically to euro-atlantic ways of life.  Pretty soon there is going to be someone out there who is going to be some white collar worker able to work as well as you, but longer than you, with less social demands and at 1/3 the cost.  Corporations and stock-holders don't discriminate in this regard...
These are big worries for sure but fiscal policy is changing RIGHT NOW to address issues regarding a pension catastrophe in the future. The money will come from setting aside extra funds right now and from an increasing number of legal skilled and non-skilled immigrants brought in to the country to provide for our aging and to ensure that Europe maintains some level of competitiveness with respect to the rest of the world. Economies always find a way of adjusting: it's like nature almost. I was spending $15 per pint when I went to Oslo in Norway recently and was thinking to myself - 'How does this economy sustain itself? Exports must be nil.' - but somehow it does.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-02-27 15:20:55)

CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6565
@ UGADawgs

An unemployed person here in the Republic gets €185 a week (circa $230). That has to cover accommodation (although rent relief is also available), food, clothes, bills, entertainment (if any), sundries (furniture, transport, insurance, etc.).

Not a luxurious lifestyle.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-02-27 15:20:11)

Rellim83
Member
+7|6692|PA
Me thinking somebody is forgetting about the massive riots in France last year, that caused martial law to take place nationwide.. oh ya and the rising unemployment rate throughout western europe. And lets not forget that the population in most european countries is actually decreasing because nobody is having kids. yep europes sounds great.

Edit. Oh ya that thing they call universal healthcare...IT SUCKS why do u think all the rich europeans come to USA for medical treatment.

Last edited by Rellim83 (2007-02-27 15:23:40)

CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6565

Rellim83 wrote:

Me thinking somebody is forgetting about the massive riots in France last year, that caused martial law to take place nationwide.. oh ya and the rising unemployment rate throughout western europe. And lets not forget that the population in most european countries is actually decreasing because nobody is having kids. yep europes sounds great.

Edit. Oh ya that thing they call universal healthcare...IT SUCKS why do u think all the rich europeans come to USA for medical treatment.
Free healthcare is guaranteed to all, private healthcare is available to all. We have both.
UGADawgs
Member
+13|6331|South Carolina, US

CameronPoe wrote:

Rellim83 wrote:

Me thinking somebody is forgetting about the massive riots in France last year, that caused martial law to take place nationwide.. oh ya and the rising unemployment rate throughout western europe. And lets not forget that the population in most european countries is actually decreasing because nobody is having kids. yep europes sounds great.

Edit. Oh ya that thing they call universal healthcare...IT SUCKS why do u think all the rich europeans come to USA for medical treatment.
Free healthcare is guaranteed to all, private healthcare is available to all. We have both.
The thing about universal health care is that while I don't mind the government helping out poor people in a bind over injury, there's no reason for the government to pay for minor checkups and health bills for middle and upper class people who are too cheap to buy it themselves. If the government is going to set up a nationalized health program, only those who need it should use it.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6565

UGADawgs wrote:

The thing about universal health care is that while I don't mind the government helping out poor people in a bind over injury, there's no reason for the government to pay for minor checkups and health bills for middle and upper class people who are too cheap to buy it themselves. If the government is going to set up a nationalized health program, only those who need it should use it.
That's exactly how it operates. I have to pay for all my dental and medical check-ups (although I can claim a proportion of the costs back in tax).
UGADawgs
Member
+13|6331|South Carolina, US

CameronPoe wrote:

UGADawgs wrote:

The thing about universal health care is that while I don't mind the government helping out poor people in a bind over injury, there's no reason for the government to pay for minor checkups and health bills for middle and upper class people who are too cheap to buy it themselves. If the government is going to set up a nationalized health program, only those who need it should use it.
That's exactly how it operates. I have to pay for all my dental and medical check-ups (although I can claim a proportion of the costs back in tax).
That's quite interesting, and I must have been thinking of other systems where most health coverage is paid for. Ireland's system looks like a very appealing program, and it'd be interesting to see a state in the US adopt a similar system.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6300|Éire

UGADawgs wrote:

That's quite interesting, and I must have been thinking of other systems where most health coverage is paid for. Ireland's system looks like a very appealing program, and it'd be interesting to see a state in the US adopt a similar system.
I think there is a lot of assumption by both Europeans and Americans when looking at each others welfare/healthcare systems. A lot of people in Europe when they picture the US health system think of the emergency victim being turned away at the hospital door or the terminally ill, half conscious patient being asked for a signature before an operation or left out on the sidewalk if he/she fails a payment. Likewise I'd say a lot of Americans think of our healthcare system as a pseudo-communist system that swallows up tax payers money to cover the costs of middle class people's ailments. Both views are exaggerated and do not really allude to the actual truth. I am a student with a part time job and qualify for free college fees but I do not get free healthcare or dental care (which sucks as I'm getting all my fillings re-done at the moment!).
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6610|132 and Bush

Braddock wrote:

We also have a system in this country where you have to be seen to be actively seeking employment in order to continue to avail of welfare, organisations such as FÁS are very proactive in this area, providing training and assisting and such.
This looks very similar to the US welfare system.

Require most recipients to work within two years of receiving assistance,
Limit most assistance to five years total, and
Let states establish "family caps" to deny additional benefits to mothers for children born while the mothers are already on public assistance...me thinks

Last edited by Kmarion (2007-02-27 15:59:25)

Xbone Stormsurgezz
IG-Calibre
comhalta
+226|6752|Tír Eoghan, Tuaisceart Éireann

CameronPoe wrote:

Rellim83 wrote:

Me thinking somebody is forgetting about the massive riots in France last year, that caused martial law to take place nationwide.. oh ya and the rising unemployment rate throughout western europe. And lets not forget that the population in most european countries is actually decreasing because nobody is having kids. yep europes sounds great.

Edit. Oh ya that thing they call universal healthcare...IT SUCKS why do u think all the rich europeans come to USA for medical treatment.
Free healthcare is guaranteed to all, private healthcare is available to all. We have both.
Not to mention all Over 65's can travel anywhere now North/South of the boarder on all public transport for free, not to mention Fuel/Electricity rebates - God damn it they are in the twilight years of their lives and we have a duty to take care of them and make thier lives as comfortable for them as possible, they probably worked their fingers to the bone all their lives! and we sure as hell will, it's the Irish way..

Last edited by IG-Calibre (2007-02-27 17:02:47)

Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6610|132 and Bush

Rellim83 wrote:

Me thinking somebody is forgetting about the massive riots in France last year, that caused martial law to take place nationwide.. oh ya and the rising unemployment rate throughout western europe. And lets not forget that the population in most european countries is actually decreasing because nobody is having kids. yep europes sounds great.

Edit. Oh ya that thing they call universal healthcare...IT SUCKS why do u think all the rich europeans come to USA for medical treatment.
It is incorrect to say the quality of their health care sucks. However, competition has been bred out of the system and in general the best doctors follow the money trail to exploit our system. We get many great doctors from all over the world, but we pay for it intensely.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
stryyker
bad touch
+1,682|6730|California

Peace? Whats that?
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|6820|Nårvei

stryyker wrote:

Peace? Whats that?
Europe

Come over and have a look, you can actually greet an arab on the street without being towed away by men in black suites and sunglasses !
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6684|Canberra, AUS

ATG wrote:

I listen to what the extremist Muslims say, and the lack of concern of the general population and I am afraid.

I observe how governments respond to natural disasters and gage that as to what it would be like with a mushroom cloud in my rearview mirror, and I'm fucking terrified.

I sincerely wish for nothing but world peace and prosperity. I have said before Iran should have nuclear power if they want it, but WMD's in the hands of religious fanatics will be the death of our civilizations.
But maybe Europe is going strong is that they aren't fazed by what you just wrote.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6415|North Carolina

CameronPoe wrote:

It appears to me that Europe, with its bloody chequered history, has finally come to a mature and peaceful rest. Where once war was a core part of the European diet there now exists peace, co-operation, security, prosperity and progress. The last few hotspots - Northern Ireland and the former Yugoslavia - seem to be nearing resolution. Europe strikes a healthy balance between nationalism and international co-operation between member countries. Europe has developed a socialist form of capitalism providing the best of both worlds, economically speaking, - steady rates of economic growth coupled with generous social welfare (helping to keep income gaps, for the most part, relatively small and ensuring that pretty much no-one gets 'left behind'). Europe is the most environmentally aware region on earth and is taking measures to address environmental issues, even if other countries won't. Europe is viewed by many as an almost impartial arbiter in international matters - the Palestine situation being a case in point. The majority of Europe refused to endorse or engage in the Iraq war, a brave and correct decision in the face of extreme pressure from a powerful ally, with many of those that did engage in it finally coming to their senses through the pressure exerted on their governments by the people: true democracy.

Europe has many flaws but humans are flawed and nothing can be absolutely perfect. Having said that, has Europe finally reached the zenith of political and economic development?
Politically, perhaps....

I think Europe still has more advances ahead in an economic sense.

Overall though...  It would seem that this continent's familiarity with war has led it to distrust the act itself.  Yet...  there is another explanation for this though....

Some have argued that America has served as Europe's military in many respects ever since the end of WW2.  We were really the only power capable of taking on the Soviets head on.  Unfortunately, it seems that our constant vigilance against the Soviets made us lose sight of enlisting our allies to a greater extent.  If we had encouraged Europe to build up its militaries more over the last several decades, we'd probably see a more balanced approach to foreign policy -- and America wouldn't be spending so much on its own military.

The only way we can return the world back to a healthy multilateral status is to encourage Canada and Europe to increase their military spending.  The U.K. already has a powerful military, but France and Germany need to step their forces up some.  Canada and Australia seriously need to do the same.

During a few decades of this shifting of military significance, America can slowly shrink its military, so that it can spend more money on things it is in dire need of improving, like education and alternative energy research.

Of course, it's difficult to get nations that have the freedom to spend their funds on non-military items to shift them back toward defense.  Look at all the societal and infrastructural advancements that much of Europe has been able to implement as a result of not having to worry much about military forces.  If America could have exploited these same luxuries, we'd be a more prosperous and healthy country.

Simply put, Europe's reluctance to enter war is a positive cultural mindset, but its lack of emphasis on defense is a burden America has had to bear.  From this point onward, we need to even things up more.

Last edited by Turquoise (2007-02-28 18:24:31)

smtt686
this is the best we can do?
+95|6641|USA
Peace and tranquility were at hand until this!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/airlines/stor … 77,00.html

I look forward to rioting in your streets


(I really don't like rioting, even in your streets)

Last edited by smtt686 (2007-02-28 18:43:16)

Skorpy-chan
Member
+127|6355|Twyford, UK

Braddock wrote:

Skorpy-chan wrote:

They are jealous of the British empire
Britain doesn't really have much of an empire anymore, Britain has lost India, conceded 26 counties (and counting) back to Ireland, Hong Kong has been handed back to the Chinese, the United States have their independence (they're doing quite well I hear too) and power has been devolved to Scotland and Wales.
Devolved? They're still part of the UK.

Also, India, Pakistan, and the other places given independence are still under the Commonwealth. THAT is mainly what Europe is jealous of, but Empire is easier to spell.
And, frankly, the US is making a huge pig's ear of independence.

The world would be better off under a benevolent dictator.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6300|Éire

Skorpy-chan wrote:

Also, India, Pakistan, and the other places given independence are still under the Commonwealth. THAT is mainly what Europe is jealous of, but Empire is easier to spell.
We're jealous of India and Pakistan? ...mmmm not sure about that. These other countries that have independence but are still in the commonwealth are part of the 'empire' in name only, there is no tangible connection with the British empire in the every day life of these countries. Britain was once a vast and powerful empire but those days are gone. I mean you say Pakistan is still part of your empire and yet it is one of the main countries in the world responsible for terrorist training (on the Afghanistan border in particular) and it is seen by many as one of the 'rogue' nuclear states, do you really claim Britain has any real influence over a country like Pakistan?

However I was chatting to an Indian guy I know the other day who said he thought India should have stayed under British rule. Each to their own I guess, I myself am glad my nation has managed to partly break away from British rule and gain independence, especially seeing as how successful we are doing outside of the 'empire'.

Last edited by Braddock (2007-03-02 19:08:53)

Krysiss
Member
+15|6484|NL

UGADawgs wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

superfly_cox wrote:

Let me preface this by saying that I am a European/American hibrid.  I was born in Europe, grew up in the US and have been back in europe the past 5 years.  I actually like both places very much and feel i understand them both very well: good and bad alike.

Regarding the post, I must say that I've got big issues with Europe as a model of peace and stability:

Seems to me that the US reached this level of maturity and peace on its continent in 1900.  The US had wars between their states and with neighbors but all has been peaceful and stable for a really long time. Nothing really special about europe getting close to this 100 years later.

Uhm, europe is facing economic difficulties.  Unemployement is huge problem.  Growth in the EU15 is poor.  Worker productivity is lagging way behind targets .  The Lisbon Strategy has become a joke in the EU.  We can debate why this is so but how productive is your working population going to be when you're paying around 50% of your salary to the state?  In any case the numbers don't make a case for Europe as an economic model of success.  Btw:


I agree with this.  EU environment regulations are very strict and will become even stricter.

The EU's common security and defense policy exists only in theory.  The Bosnian/Kosovo conflict will forever be a black eye for Europe's security policy.  I won't get into the iraq debate except to say that if europe thinks that the US is the real enemy, then they have a very short memory and are bound to see history repeat itself...in their disfavor.

conclusion: if you want to make a case for europe as a model for the world, aside from the environmental arguement, I think you've picked the worst possible areas for your arguement.  Europe, for all its wonderful virtues, is from a global perspective in a period of decadence: they are complacent, indifferent, have weak leadership, and just don't have the competitive drive of a world power anymore.  After many hundreds of years of being the center of global power, europe is content to take it easy.  Unfortunately history tells us this is not a good thing: China, India and Russia are rising.  Islam is the world's largest relgion (and we know the problems there).  We are far from becoming a planet that is governed by Utopian principles as some europeans would see.  We live in a world with conflicts, wars, dangerous ideologies, unscrupulous government, fierce competition from economic globalization, mass migrations and most dangerously the technologies so advanced that it can be used to kill millions at time, possibly even destroy the planet.  Seems to me that europe is ignoring human history by minimilizing these issues.
Some of the points you raise as being bad points are exactly what I believe to be Europe's strong points. By choosing the socialist path Europe has automatically ceded the competitive edge and lives with that in the knowledge that the chosen path leads to a higher standard of living and quality of life albeit lower levels of growth. As a consequence unemployment is higher - but unemployment in Europe is not quite the struggle it is in USA: free healthcare, dental care, welfare payments, subsidised housing, etc. - no real cause for complaint: a basic guaranteed quality of life, which is comfortable but not luxurious thus encouraging the unemployed to seek gainful employment and to better themselves, secure in the knowledge that if they fail they will always be able to bounce back given the safety net underneath them.

You speak of weak leadership. I do not want Europe going down the path of centralisation of power, one of the major flaws in the American political system. Devolution of power provides true democracy - centralisation of it breeds corruption and silences the voice of the little man. The sovereignty each of our constituent governments still retain means that we get truly representative government and that our leaders remain answerable to the people for their actions.

I don't measure the success of a society in terms of GDP or stock market indices. People matter, not money. The system we have in place today here in Europe provides most Europeans with an average standard of living and quality of life over and above the average standard in the rest of the world. You're right - Europe is content to take it easy and that's exactly what I hold up as the way forward. We have chosen slow and steady growth as opposed to rampant cut-throat growth (regardless of who loses out and by how much given the unavoidable winner-loser nature of pure capitalism). Norway, with one of the highest standards of living in the world and one of the best economies, has taxation rates of circa 80% and yet you offer up high taxes as an example of an economic flaw?

We have the military resources to defend ourselves as well - something you seem to allude to us not having. We will defend ourselves when necessary, when provoked - we have the means and we have the deterrents to prevent others from attacking us.

So if I have no real reason to complain about living off of welfare (since it's not that bad of a life), what incentive do I really have to work hard for a good job? You can talk about trying to get a better life, but if the unemployment benefits give a "basic" living standard, a lot of people will be perfectly happy in mediocrity. Unemployment should be something that people want to get out of as quickly as possible, not some phase that they can pass through with ease. I'm not saying that we should cut all welfare, but I'm saying that welfare should only be the minimum amount necessary to keep a person afloat while he finds a job.


The US government has gotten stronger in the last century, but a lot of stuff here is still decided by the states or local governments. We've got a large federal government, but there's still the 10th amendment that guarantees the states considerable leeway in many issues.

I think someone else hit the nail on the head when they said that Europe wants to have a strong economy but doesn't want to work for it. You even admit that Europe tries to take the "easy" way. I was shocked when I found out that most Europeans have such a low GDP; I knew that countries like Greece and Portugal were somewhat poorer, but I was very surprised to find France lagging behind states like Mississippi and Georgia.

The biggest problem that Europe will face due to its social programs, though, will be an aging population that will eventually put too great a strain on the social services. That and the fact that China will only pump out even more cheap goods mean that Europe will find it harder to stay competitive when they have to not only give benefits to current workers but to a large and growing elder population that will not be able to replenish government funds.
Not everyone is blessed to born in the same environment and also if there are no jobs it's hard to get to work.
american standards are far more based for the rich people who already have big $$$

people from lower class could never climp up as easy because studying is quit expensive instead of europa,.
Pernicious544
Zee Tank Skank
+80|6710|MoVal So-Cal

CameronPoe wrote:

It appears to me that Europe, with its bloody chequered history, has finally come to a mature and peaceful rest. Where once war was a core part of the European diet there now exists peace, co-operation, security, prosperity and progress. The last few hotspots - Northern Ireland and the former Yugoslavia - seem to be nearing resolution. Europe strikes a healthy balance between nationalism and international co-operation between member countries. Europe has developed a socialist form of capitalism providing the best of both worlds, economically speaking, - steady rates of economic growth coupled with generous social welfare (helping to keep income gaps, for the most part, relatively small and ensuring that pretty much no-one gets 'left behind'). Europe is the most environmentally aware region on earth and is taking measures to address environmental issues, even if other countries won't. Europe is viewed by many as an almost impartial arbiter in international matters - the Palestine situation being a case in point. The majority of Europe refused to endorse or engage in the Iraq war, a brave and correct decision in the face of extreme pressure from a powerful ally, with many of those that did engage in it finally coming to their senses through the pressure exerted on their governments by the people: true democracy.

Europe has many flaws but humans are flawed and nothing can be absolutely perfect. Having said that, has Europe finally reached the zenith of political and economic development?
Good job...it only took you several thousand years.....
Rosse_modest
Member
+76|6786|Antwerp, Flanders

Skorpy-chan wrote:

Also, India, Pakistan, and the other places given independence are still under the Commonwealth. THAT is mainly what Europe is jealous of, but Empire is easier to spell.
I have yet to meet anyone that's jealous of the UK for that, or jealous of the UK at all.
PureFodder
Member
+225|6295

Pernicious544 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

It appears to me that Europe, with its bloody chequered history, has finally come to a mature and peaceful rest. Where once war was a core part of the European diet there now exists peace, co-operation, security, prosperity and progress. The last few hotspots - Northern Ireland and the former Yugoslavia - seem to be nearing resolution. Europe strikes a healthy balance between nationalism and international co-operation between member countries. Europe has developed a socialist form of capitalism providing the best of both worlds, economically speaking, - steady rates of economic growth coupled with generous social welfare (helping to keep income gaps, for the most part, relatively small and ensuring that pretty much no-one gets 'left behind'). Europe is the most environmentally aware region on earth and is taking measures to address environmental issues, even if other countries won't. Europe is viewed by many as an almost impartial arbiter in international matters - the Palestine situation being a case in point. The majority of Europe refused to endorse or engage in the Iraq war, a brave and correct decision in the face of extreme pressure from a powerful ally, with many of those that did engage in it finally coming to their senses through the pressure exerted on their governments by the people: true democracy.

Europe has many flaws but humans are flawed and nothing can be absolutely perfect. Having said that, has Europe finally reached the zenith of political and economic development?
Good job...it only took you several thousand years.....
Still beat you though.
Pernicious544
Zee Tank Skank
+80|6710|MoVal So-Cal

PureFodder wrote:

Pernicious544 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

It appears to me that Europe, with its bloody chequered history, has finally come to a mature and peaceful rest. Where once war was a core part of the European diet there now exists peace, co-operation, security, prosperity and progress. The last few hotspots - Northern Ireland and the former Yugoslavia - seem to be nearing resolution. Europe strikes a healthy balance between nationalism and international co-operation between member countries. Europe has developed a socialist form of capitalism providing the best of both worlds, economically speaking, - steady rates of economic growth coupled with generous social welfare (helping to keep income gaps, for the most part, relatively small and ensuring that pretty much no-one gets 'left behind'). Europe is the most environmentally aware region on earth and is taking measures to address environmental issues, even if other countries won't. Europe is viewed by many as an almost impartial arbiter in international matters - the Palestine situation being a case in point. The majority of Europe refused to endorse or engage in the Iraq war, a brave and correct decision in the face of extreme pressure from a powerful ally, with many of those that did engage in it finally coming to their senses through the pressure exerted on their governments by the people: true democracy.

Europe has many flaws but humans are flawed and nothing can be absolutely perfect. Having said that, has Europe finally reached the zenith of political and economic development?
Good job...it only took you several thousand years.....
Still beat you though.
Uh, dummy, we've only been around for 250 or so years. Our continent is peaceful with itself (mostly), maybe not with other but we are friends with everyone on our continent (mostly)

Board footer

Privacy Policy - © 2024 Jeff Minard