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Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|5320|67.222.138.85
Despite its shortcomings, I've had a lot of fun on BF2. You guys have too, or you wouldn't be here in the first place. But man what a clusterfuck of a game it has been. The lack of testing, balance, and polish was really horrendous by just about any standard, yet we kept coming back. Why? Because the underlying idea of a game with a vast, open battlefield with a slew of vehicles and weapons to choose from, plus a persistent statistics system is incredibly inviting.

Why no developer has figured this out I don't understand. The core gameplay elements of BF2 are as solid as they get, but the execution was really terrible. Someone could go at a game with the exact same angle, and if they could actually pull it off the game would be a smash hit. Sure some games have seemingly gone after this kind of idea, of recent note OFP2, but they don't see that there is a difference between a modern battlefield and a realistic battlefield. Yes some people want to play Project Reality but some (an awful big chunk of the market) don't. People want a large gameplay experience that they can hop right in to and then back out of when they need to go somewhere in half an hour. While playing with modern day weapons and vehicles is obviously really cool, we understand that this is a video game and generally the need for straightforward and fast-paced gameplay trump the desire for absolute realism.

That's what BF2 did right. That's where the game shines, and that's what kept people coming back. It's big, it's easy enough to get into, and there's nothing quite like that drum roll we all know so well. What kept it from being a truly great game?

1. Utter lack of sufficient development game testing and gameplay decisions.

It is not hard at all to both a) find out that people can dolphin dive in your game and b) decide whether you want this to be a valid tactic in your game. People that complain about them removing things like this wouldn't have had a problem with it if it was never in the game in the first place. It's not like anyone went out and bought the game because they could go prone while five feet in the air. The issue people have is you go out and buy the game, you play the game, you get good at the game, then the idiot devs go and completely change the stupid thing. It's not minor changes or bug fixes, they have completely changed the way the game is played (on all fronts except for maybe armor) multiple times. Not just dolphin diving, but choppers (black hawk and attack), jets, AA, anti-personnel and anti-tank mines, even C4. Every game is going to have cheap tactics, but if you want to eliminate most of them you're going to have to put some work in before you release it. Nobody likes having to learn how to ride a bike again and again and again and again.

2. Map design

I have to preface this by saying as a whole BF2 doesn't have a bad set of maps per se. It's certainly nothing like CoD4. After playing DoD:S for a while though I must say it feels good to play truly good maps again. Valve seems to get maps right. Balanced, fairly complex and how spawns work is always solid. You just can't say the same thing for BF2. The asymmetrical maps are usually violently slanted towards one side...64 Kark with vehicles anyone? Who had the brilliant idea of putting ALL of MEC's armor at one point in the back? Any US team with an IQ over 60 demolishes MEC. Who had the brilliant idea of spawning all of USMC on top of a fairly small and open carrier with poor air defenses, usually without a single ground flag? Ohhhh 30 extra tickets, awesome. Yes I know there are tactics around all of this stuff, but why do those tactics have to exist at all? Was DICE really expecting these maps to play out as they have? Did they ever play their own maps?

3. Net code

You have to shoot behind someone to kill them. you have to shoot choppers 1-2 lengths behind them to kill them. It's a shooting game where you have to miss to hit. Need I say more?

4. Patches

'Cause not only did they keep drastically changing how to play the game, they screwed up the game too. Patch 1.3, what the HELL. How could they have put that patch through any sort of rigor and come out the other side saying this is even a patch that will allow you to load the game? Patch 1.5, how long did it take them to moderate the J-10/F-35b match up?

5. Broken Promises

It's not just Valve. We were promised more gameplay modes for BF2, specifically where you had to take the control points in order. I was really, really looking forward to that, a mode where you have to actually flank a single point instead of flanking by going halfway across the map to take a flag over there. You don't put Blackhawks with rocket pods on the back of the box and not give them to us.

6. Stats glitches/vulnerabilities

Made stats worthless after what, 18 months? Yeah I know, lol dumfuk, stats r lif, but it was fun working for medals and watching my improvement. It was fun working my K/D up from a .8, hundredth by hundredth. I would say that maybe this had more to do with the number of people trying to mess up the system than the lack of security/debugging on the system in the first place, but looking at the rest of the game how can you say that? They put all their effort into securing the stats system and abandoned the game itself? Either way, do they know what a backup is?

They got the idea right, and they made it as difficult as possible to experience that idea at every turn. Please, please EA, keep the idea of BF2 alive in BF3. Please, please EA, look at how hard you tried to kill BF2 and don't make the same mistakes again. For your sake and for mine, make the game of the decade and not the pain in the ass of the decade.
Finray
Hup! Dos, Tres, Cuatro
+2,623|4401|Catherine Black
CoD4 has bad maps? Apart from the size, I have to say, WHAT?
https://i.imgur.com/qwWEP9F.png
I'm Jamesey
Do a Research Noob
+506|4745|Scotland!
Well written, everything is true and I agree with it all.
Monkey Spanker
Show it to the nice monkey.
+284|4865|England

I'm Jamesey wrote:

Well written, everything is true and I agree with it all.
this
Quote of the year so far "Fifa 11 on the other hand... shiny things for mongos "-mtb0minime
https://bf3s.com/sigs/f30415b2d1cff840176cce816dc76d89a7929bb0.png
Microwave
_
+515|5268|Loughborough Uni / Leeds, UK
Postt


EMAIL!
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Da Blooze
+111|5267
You should send this as a typed letter to DICE.  You pretty much hit the nail on the head in all aspects.  To me, post-BF2 shooters will never achieve true awesome-ness unless they have at least some of the epic scope of BF2, as well as the arcade-ish playability of it.  Bad Company 2 looks like it holds more promise than the current CoD games, but even its scope is dumbed down compared to BF2.

Here's hoping BF3 will happen, and will be executed right.
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/12516/Bitch%20Hunter%20Sig.jpg
seymorebutts443
Ready for combat
+211|5208|Belchertown Massachusetts, USA
I feel like valve should just take over the battlefield series. They do a lot of things right.
woodrot
I Need A Dump
+25|5343|sunderland england

I'm Jamesey wrote:

Well written, everything is true and I agree with it all.
this
Doctor Strangelove
Real Battlefield Veterinarian.
+1,758|5081
Welcome to 2006.
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,760|4766|what

seymorebutts443 wrote:

I feel like valve should just take over the battlefield series. They do a lot of things right.
They do a shit ton wrong, too.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png

"coz you a far cry from acclaim nigga ubisoft"
Doctor Strangelove
Real Battlefield Veterinarian.
+1,758|5081
thread sucks
Zukabazuka
Member
+23|5299
About dolphin diving, mix it with netcode and you see the problem. Then another thing with the netcode, you need to shoot infront of the chopper not behind what I know.

Think Jets was the main reason the game went downhill, Super vehicles with very little chance to be shot down and refill by just flying past the base make it not so fun for the other where you could bomb an area every 15 second or so.

Any company that does seems to make a lot of testing is Blizzard.
ruisleipa
Member
+149|4835|teh FIN-land
You make a couplea good points but on the other hand...the game is years old and STILL thousands of people play it daily. How many games can you say that about? Although it could (have) been improved, it's finished now regarding updates etc, surely, so when you consider how popular it still is I think it's fair to say it's easily one of the top ten (five?) PC games ever.

re map design. True some maps are much better than others. Play the ones you like. Simple.

re net code. to hit you have to shoot to miss? errr....yeah ok. maybe it's lag or you have a shitty computer?

re stats glitches. If you play for stats for YOURSELF why do you give a rats ass about anyone ELSE's stats? I don't get it. What makes them worthless? They're worthless anyway! It's just numbers on a computer game!
Laika
Member
+75|4557

ruisleipa wrote:

You make a couplea good points but on the other hand...the game is years old and STILL thousands of people play it daily. How many games can you say that about? Although it could (have) been improved, it's finished now regarding updates etc, surely, so when you consider how popular it still is I think it's fair to say it's easily one of the top ten (five?) PC games ever.
He's not saying it's a bad game. He's saying it's a good game based on a great concept, but could have used better execution.

re map design. True some maps are much better than others. Play the ones you like. Simple.
It's fair to argue that all of the maps BF2 came with should have had good balance.

re net code. to hit you have to shoot to miss? errr....yeah ok. maybe it's lag or you have a shitty computer?
Have you ever even played BF2?

re stats glitches. If you play for stats for YOURSELF why do you give a rats ass about anyone ELSE's stats? I don't get it. What makes them worthless? They're worthless anyway! It's just numbers on a computer game!
If you play for yourself, why do care that someone else cares about other people's stats?
ruisleipa
Member
+149|4835|teh FIN-land

Laika wrote:

ruisleipa wrote:

You make a couplea good points but on the other hand...the game is years old and STILL thousands of people play it daily. How many games can you say that about? Although it could (have) been improved, it's finished now regarding updates etc, surely, so when you consider how popular it still is I think it's fair to say it's easily one of the top ten (five?) PC games ever.
He's not saying it's a bad game. He's saying it's a good game based on a great concept, but could have used better execution.

re map design. True some maps are much better than others. Play the ones you like. Simple.
It's fair to argue that all of the maps BF2 came with should have had good balance.

re net code. to hit you have to shoot to miss? errr....yeah ok. maybe it's lag or you have a shitty computer?
Have you ever even played BF2?

re stats glitches. If you play for stats for YOURSELF why do you give a rats ass about anyone ELSE's stats? I don't get it. What makes them worthless? They're worthless anyway! It's just numbers on a computer game!
If you play for yourself, why do care that someone else cares about other people's stats?
a) OK fair enough, but I'm saying that it clearly isn't as bad as he makes out, since it's still so popular. If it was as shit as the OP and all the other moaning minnies often claim then surely it would've sunk without a trace. And to quote the OP he said 'the execution was terrible'. Well, I don't think it was/is terrible. In fact I think it's excellent, a point of view borne out by the fact thousands are still playing it.

b) Well, it's not the only online game with dodgily balanced maps. But presumably there're some people who like each map, so what's the problem? If you don't like jets don't play jet maps. but those maps are there for people who DO like to fly jets - which is fair enough. Also, if you've played IO you might think that maps like Karkand are more balanced without vehciles, in which case cool - now you can play those. There're also maps with only tanks, helis and tanks, boats, aircraft carriers. something for everyone in other words. PLUS, there is NO map which cannot be won by either side, although admittedly some are more of a challenge than others - but so what? It makes it satisfying if you win, right?

c) errr...yes, I have played BF2.What kind of a dumb ass question is that? Have YOU ever heard of lag? I find that if I shoot an anti-tank rocket at 20 metres behind a tank I actually MISS the tank...gee whiz whoulda thunk it?? where as if I shoot my rocket AT the tank/helo/jeep/soldier then I actually HIT it. What happens when you do that? Hmmmm....

d) well excuse me, I thought we were discussing the OP's comments, and I was offering my opinion. Why do you care what I care about other people caring about their stats? lol

Last edited by ruisleipa (2010-01-03 06:38:22)

Laika
Member
+75|4557

ruisleipa wrote:

d) well excuse me, I thought we were discussing the OP's comments, and I was offering my opinion. Why do you care what I care about other people caring about their stats? lol
Why do you care that I care that you care about him caring about other people's stats?
ruisleipa
Member
+149|4835|teh FIN-land

Laika wrote:

ruisleipa wrote:

d) well excuse me, I thought we were discussing the OP's comments, and I was offering my opinion. Why do you care what I care about other people caring about their stats? lol
Why do you care that I care that you care about him caring about other people's stats?
ooooh---i see what ya did thar
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|5320|67.222.138.85

ruisleipa wrote:

You make a couplea good points but on the other hand...the game is years old and STILL thousands of people play it daily. How many games can you say that about? Although it could (have) been improved, it's finished now regarding updates etc, surely, so when you consider how popular it still is I think it's fair to say it's easily one of the top ten (five?) PC games ever.
I would say it has a shot at the top ten. Probably not the top five. People play lots of games for a really long time, it has to contend with games like Starcraft, Warcraft, CoD2, CS 1.6, etc. People have historically played those games even more than BF2, and they have certainly had a longer lifespan. BF2 is still alive to be sure, but the number of servers are already waning noticeably.

It is a good game, I said that, but it could have been a really great game. The flaws I outlined above drove a lot of people away from the game, including myself and my friends from playing it as much as we may have otherwise. If even just the maps and the netcode were fixed of the above I would probably still be playing it, but it makes the game too frustrating at times.

ruisleipa wrote:

re map design. True some maps are much better than others. Play the ones you like. Simple.
Except that the ones I like aren't played very much. Fairly symmetrical maps like Daqing or Mash. People apparently like maps that turn into stomps at least half the time, maps like Kark, Dalian, Wake. Presumably because they like to shift themselves on to the stomping end.

ruisleipa wrote:

re net code. to hit you have to shoot to miss? errr....yeah ok. maybe it's lag or you have a shitty computer?
This makes me question how much experience you actually have on BF2. This is not a matter of "lol u suk", it's a documented fact. Maybe if your aim isn't the best you can't notice on infantry. If you don't take it into account for moving air vehicles though you might have a 30% hit ratio at best.



Watch this from 5:48
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid … 651613512#

Watch any chopper video and look how far they aim behind to hit as well.

ruisleipa wrote:

re stats glitches. If you play for stats for YOURSELF why do you give a rats ass about anyone ELSE's stats? I don't get it. What makes them worthless? They're worthless anyway! It's just numbers on a computer game!
As I already said, I liked looking at MY stats. I didn't and don't care about anyone else's stats. It's gay because I had 165k on a Colonel account that I enjoyed playing on, working my .8 nub kdr up to a 1.7x. Then some dickholes got it reset, so then I was thinking ah well, at least I can start out fresh and work towards a really leget kdr. Then that account got reset around 10k points, and I was thinking ah well I can get the unlocks I use pretty fast here, not a big deal. Then it got fucking reset again at around 5k points, and now I'm thinking okay goddamn this is getting old.

It's not an unreasonable request to ask that I be able to watch my progress and work towards medals on a game that advertises a persistent ranking system. Being reset 3 times is ridiculous.
ruisleipa
Member
+149|4835|teh FIN-land

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

I would say it has a shot at the top ten. Probably not the top five. People play lots of games for a really long time, it has to contend with games like Starcraft, Warcraft, CoD2, CS 1.6, etc. People have historically played those games even more than BF2, and they have certainly had a longer lifespan. BF2 is still alive to be sure, but the number of servers are already waning noticeably.
Fair enough. In my opinion it's better than Starcraft, CS, other games you mentioned. but that's just my opinion and I can't be arsed explaining why I think so...it's just like that!

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

It is a good game, I said that, but it could have been a really great game. The flaws I outlined above drove a lot of people away from the game, including myself and my friends from playing it as much as we may have otherwise. If even just the maps and the netcode were fixed of the above I would probably still be playing it, but it makes the game too frustrating at times.
Fair enough also. Mind you, about the maps again, you can't deny there ARE great maps available and you can still play those? Don't forget the smaller versions might be better than bigger ones too. I recently played for the first time (!) Dalian plant on 16 player and it was hella fun, much better than 64-player (I/O).

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Except that the ones I like aren't played very much. Fairly symmetrical maps like Daqing or Mash. People apparently like maps that turn into stomps at least half the time, maps like Kark, Dalian, Wake. Presumably because they like to shift themselves on to the stomping end.
well that's just bad luck innit, if you can't find the maps you like? I mean, you can't force other people to play certain maps. For myself, I think that Night Flight is a kick-ass map but good luck finding any servers with it on. I might find one a week, if that. Yeah it's annoying but what ya gonna do except start a server with only maps I like on it, and then sit there on my own! For the record Wake was a shitty map in BF42 and it's still shitty in BF2

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

This makes me question how much experience you actually have on BF2. This is not a matter of "lol u suk", it's a documented fact. Maybe if your aim isn't the best you can't notice on infantry. If you don't take it into account for moving air vehicles though you might have a 30% hit ratio at best.
Dude, I never said you suck. true the hit detection is all over the place often - but I stand my example of AT rockets! As for those vids I've seen em all before. I also remember seeing some done by one guy who played as a sniper and didn't lead or aim behind any of his targets, just aimed dead on and got a head shot all the time (no he wasn't hacking). I'm just saying, it's not only the code that affects it, there're other factors in play, like lag for example. I'd have to know a lot more about the factors involved in maing those youtube vids before I assume they're 100% accurate depictions of gameplay, cos tbh if I have a low ping it needs different aiming than if I have a high ping - you must see that right?? FYI I've played a depressing 1,319 hours on BF2 so you don't need to question how much experience I have, k?

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

As I already said, I liked looking at MY stats. I didn't and don't care about anyone else's stats. It's gay because I had 165k on a Colonel account that I enjoyed playing on, working my .8 nub kdr up to a 1.7x. Then some dickholes got it reset, so then I was thinking ah well, at least I can start out fresh and work towards a really leget kdr. Then that account got reset around 10k points, and I was thinking ah well I can get the unlocks I use pretty fast here, not a big deal. Then it got fucking reset again at around 5k points, and now I'm thinking okay goddamn this is getting old.

It's not an unreasonable request to ask that I be able to watch my progress and work towards medals on a game that advertises a persistent ranking system. Being reset 3 times is ridiculous.
That is true, and sorry I didn't get your point earlier. That would annoy the fuck outta me as well. Why did they do it? Most people I have heard of who've had stats reset have been accused of statspadding or whatever (definitely not accusing you of that don't worry), so why was yours reset then? Not wanting to take EAs side cos it DOES suck but they only started resetting points when people really started bitching about padders and hackers or whatever, so they were trying to do right by the players, but of course some people got fucked over...
ROGUEDD
BF2s. A Liberal Gang of Faggots.
+452|4002|Fuck this.
On point 2: This is one of the things I've discovered about 1943. Wake island is a helluva lot more balanced, without sacrificing size or detail. In fact, it seems to be more detailed now. But yeah, you need to send this to EA/DICE.
Make X-meds a full member, for the sake of 15 year old anal gangbang porn watchers everywhere!
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|5320|67.222.138.85

ruisleipa wrote:

Dude, I never said you suck. true the hit detection is all over the place often - but I stand my example of AT rockets! As for those vids I've seen em all before. I also remember seeing some done by one guy who played as a sniper and didn't lead or aim behind any of his targets, just aimed dead on and got a head shot all the time (no he wasn't hacking). I'm just saying, it's not only the code that affects it, there're other factors in play, like lag for example. I'd have to know a lot more about the factors involved in maing those youtube vids before I assume they're 100% accurate depictions of gameplay, cos tbh if I have a low ping it needs different aiming than if I have a high ping - you must see that right?? FYI I've played a depressing 1,319 hours on BF2 so you don't need to question how much experience I have, k? wink
AT rockets aren't a big deal because usually the target is moving slowly. To hit a chopper you still need to hit a ways behind them, and a jet...forget about aiming straight for it. You get the kill when you are 2-4 lengths behind the jet.

The second video I showed you was one I made with my friend a couple years ago now. We were both on 15MB down/2 up FIOS lines, less than 70 ping across the board, usually under 40. Relative to BF2 I am on a hot rig now, and still there are a lot of shots on infantry that I know (after 1500+ hours, you know) hit...nothing but dust. I'm not raging about my shitty scores or whatever, I'm still usually getting gold with kdrs I am fine with and on the whole enjoying myself. It's just a severe annoyance that should have been priority 1 in building the foundation for an FPS.

ruisleipa wrote:

That is true, and sorry I didn't get your point earlier. That would annoy the fuck outta me as well. Why did they do it? Most people I have heard of who've had stats reset have been accused of statspadding or whatever (definitely not accusing you of that don't worry), so why was yours reset then? Not wanting to take EAs side cos it DOES suck but they only started resetting points when people really started bitching about padders and hackers or whatever, so they were trying to do right by the players, but of course some people got fucked over...
lol I have a screenshot somewhere of myself being #2 on the scoreboard with 11 million points, can't find it right now.

The hackers were able to get in and mimic someone's account (without getting the password) and then hack/glitch/pad with it to give it some absurd amount of points, and then EA would reset it. I didn't do it, but because they could get into my account due to vulnerabilities in the game EA had no choice to reset the account. Of course they don't keep any backups, that would be crazy.
Narupug
Fodder Mostly
+150|4210|Vacationland
Yeah the armor in the game is some what over powered.  The only way to take down jets is with a jet or a AA of some sort if you get lucky.  Helis a pretty much the same.  Their are only 3 out of the 6 classes which can do significant damage to them and one of those classes has to run right up to the armor to take it out and another has to get them to drive over a big black visable mine.  When you play a team with excessively dominant air support which won't allow any tanks, APCs, Jeeps, cars, helis or other Jets to live very long taking out enemy armor let alone that jet is often a difficult task.  It's not that bad and I admit that way the classes are set up forces people to think about other things then who has the best gun when picking a class, but it would be nice if planes had to actually land to reload on weapons.   I play I/O sometimes, but that lacks any armor or anything so the game looses a big strategic component and people just whore out Support, Medic, and Sniper.  A balance would be nice, and maybe a tank a little closer to hotel on Karkand
ruisleipa
Member
+149|4835|teh FIN-land

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

I would say it has a shot at the top ten. Probably not the top five.
Just for fun, see how many have it their top ten/five here: http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=133937

thepilot91
Member
+64|4849|Åland!
I've read the whole page now agree at most points about the game especially the bit that says its a good game on a great concept , oh yes and the point hitting when missing in fps games ... BUT when I and my bf2 pal since release (Freezer) play bf2 nowdays It's more often that we laugh our asses of for some stupid fucking arsed bug that makes a silly death / no kill than raging over it , I've raged so many times on bf2 and it's bus , but nowdays after all these years , I gotta edmitt I kinda like it , I myself belive it's charming the whole game is despite it's bugs and shit

<3 bf2 4 ever
Cheez
Herman is a warmaphrodite
+1,027|5052|King Of The Islands

ruisleipa wrote:

I find that if I shoot an anti-tank rocket at 20 metres behind a tank I actually MISS the tank...gee whiz whoulda thunk it?? where as if I shoot my rocket AT the tank/helo/jeep/soldier then I actually HIT it. What happens when you do that? Hmmmm....
I don't think we've played the same game here.
My state was founded by Batman. Your opinion is invalid.

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