Poll

Should "Under God" be taken out of the USA's pledge of allegiance?

Yes56%56% - 58
No43%43% - 44
Total: 102
T1g3r217
Perpetual
+124|6393|My room
I've heard a lot of debate about this elsewhere and thought I'd get the question over here.

I say yes, simply because the US has grown too diverse to essentially assume that everyone believes in only one God, or, indeed, believes in God at all.
DUnlimited
got any popo lolo intersting?
+1,160|6434|cuntshitlake

Have fun trying to get that through though.
main battle tank karthus medikopter 117 megamegapowershot gg
T1g3r217
Perpetual
+124|6393|My room
Rational behind the vote would be appreciated so that we could get a decent debate going.
El Beardo
steel woolly mammoth
+150|5691|Gulf Coast

I voted yes but I don't really care much tbh. God's name is on our money, behind the bench in our courthouses etc. etc. Are we going to remove all that stuff too?

I don't believe in God personally, I think if there was an attempt to remove God's name from the pledge most Christians would see it as an Anti-Christ type motive instead of it being about adapting to the increasingly diverse population of the U.S.

Last edited by El Beardo (2009-08-25 08:48:31)

T1g3r217
Perpetual
+124|6393|My room
The pledge is recited by schoolchildren everyday; those of them who do not believe in only one God are essentially being told that they do not fit in with the rest of America.
El Beardo
steel woolly mammoth
+150|5691|Gulf Coast

T1g3r217 wrote:

The pledge is recited by schoolchildren everyday; those of them who do not believe in only one God are essentially being told that they do not fit in with the rest of America.
Yeah, I know....that was me.
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5556

Never thought God existed, went through CCD and am confirmed in the Catholic Church but still don't believe in all that bullshit and I have to say that having the word god in the pledge doesn't bother or affect me at all. To me god is a word and nothing more, couldn't care any less where it is.
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6441
I think that ideologically America will always be a Christian-nation but I do think that yes, for the sake of modernity and assuming a face that is more-suited to a 21st century super-power, America should completely drop all influences of the Church from the State and its representation/image. When you are so associated with Christianity and being a religious-nation, certain acts of state e.g. the Middle-Eastern conflicts, come across as more of a theological crusade than a political move. Especially doesn't help when you vote in Neo-Con Bible-bashing rednecks to front this... but hey, that's history. I think now you have Obama-mania it's a particularly good time to branch out and show that you're more than a nation of Puritan and denominational outcasts.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|6707|Salt Lake City

It should be removed.  The original pledge was written by a monk, and he didn't see fit to have it there.  It was added in the 1950s during the McCarthy era "Red Scare", by the Knights of Columbus.
Wreckognize
Member
+294|6456
Take it out.  The United States is not and never was a Christian nation.


Treaty of Tripoli wrote:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6603|949

It was forced through in the '50's by Christian lobbyists, don't see why it couldn't be taken out.  I think it's stupid, same with the Pledge.  It felt rather fascistic and decidedly un-American to stand every day and put my hand over my heart as I pledged my unwavering loyalty to a piece of cloth and country.

I mean, I love living in the US and know exactly how lucky I am/was to be born here, I don't need to recite some stupid words thought up by some overly patriotic fat dudes who probably had nothing better to do.  To me the flag doesn't mean anything either, and I really don't care if some people hold it as some sacred symbol.  Reciting some mindless oath and saluting a flag don't make you more of a patriot than the homeless Veteran begging for change on the corner.
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+794|6655|United States of America
Do it or don't, it's not a big deal. Most normal folk don't get their panties in a bunch over the "In God We Trust" on cash and coin, so ceremonial deism in this instance isn't that out of the ordinary. However, as was pointed out, it was added during the '50s so you can argue that it's more traditional with the words removed.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6603|949

How about this - keep the words the same, just remove its use from any government event- schools, Congress, whatever.  It can be a chant drunk fratboys sing as the beat the shit out of some harmless minority.
LividBovine
The Year of the Cow!
+175|6351|MN
Coming from the Christian point of view, I agree that it is not representative of the current make-up of the US.  Although I believe in strong Christian values and what a true follower of Jesus stands for, I cannot tell the populace of the US to pledge to something they do not believe in.
"The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation" - Barack Obama (a freshman senator from Illinios)
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6513|Texas - Bigger than France
You are not required to say the pledge anyway

btw in Texas:
"Honor the Texas flag; I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one state under God, one and indivisible."
jsnipy
...
+3,276|6493|...

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

It was forced through in the '50's by Christian lobbyists, don't see why it couldn't be taken out.
Never knew that +1 and I agree.

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

It felt rather fascistic and decidedly un-American to stand every day and put my hand over my heart as I pledged my unwavering loyalty to a piece of cloth and country.
My parents never allowed me to say the pledge in school.
T1g3r217
Perpetual
+124|6393|My room
Our school's mostly Indian/Chinese/Japanese/Korean/what-have-you, so most people just stand up and stay silent when the pledge is being said.

My only problem is its limitations, as it implies that to be American you must be monotheist.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6526
Every morning before class started I had to recite 'Sé do bheatha a Mhuire' (Hail Mary) and Ár nAthair (Our Father). Count yourselves lucky it's only two bullshit words of brainrot you have to recite.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2009-08-25 13:04:17)

m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|6642|UK
I had to sing a christian hymn every day in morning assembly.

lets see them try that today lol
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
Diesel_dyk
Object in mirror will feel larger than it appears
+178|5965|Truthistan
For it or against it is not that big a deal but it is symbolic, especially since the pledge was written by a christian socialist.
The pledge is recent, being adopted in 1942 and it has been changed a couple of times already so deleting the word god to make it more inclusive is probably a good idea.

wiki had some interesting stuff on the pledge

"The U.S. Congress officially recognized the Pledge as the official national pledge on June 22, 1942.

Students pledging to the flag in with the Bellamy salute.In 1940 the Supreme Court, in deciding the case of Minersville School District v. Gobitis, ruled that students in public schools could be compelled to swear the Pledge, even Jehovah's Witnesses like the Gobitases, who considered the flag salute to be idolatry. In the wake of this ruling, there was a rash of mob violence and intimidation against Jehovah's Witnesses. In 1943 the Supreme Court reversed its decision, ruling in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette that "compulsory unification of opinion" violated the First Amendment.

Swearing of the pledge is accompanied by a salute. An early version of the salute, adopted in 1892, was known as the Bellamy salute. It ended with the arm outstretched and the palm upwards. It eventually evolved to palm downward. Because of the similarity between the Bellamy salute and the Nazi salute, President Franklin D. Roosevelt instituted the hand-over-the-heart gesture as the salute to be rendered by civilians during the Pledge of Allegiance and the national anthem in the United States, instead of the Bellamy salute. This was done when Congress officially adopted the Flag Code on June 22, 1942." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Pledge_salue.jpg
When I saw the picture I thought it was the hitler youth.... not that far off I guess considering that those who oppose the language in it are demonized by social conservative-socialists.
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6620

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

It felt rather fascistic and decidedly un-American to stand every day and put my hand over my heart as I pledged my unwavering loyalty to a piece of cloth and country.
Not that I've ever had to do it, but I've always though the same thing about it.
Lai
Member
+186|6122
I was raised atheist with an atheist mother and semi-budhist father. However I went to a Jesuit high school; we had a chapel in our school courtyard and a priesthouse. The priests lived at school and teached "religion" (which was not limited to Catholisism, but also discussed Judaism, Islam etc.), but also classes like Biology and one of them even used to swear like hell in front of the class. They were very very open minded, though I know they weren't some 50 years back. One of my teachers told me that in his youth they had to write "deo volente" above their exams or get beaten and recieve an 1 (on a scale of 10).

It's funny; I'm still a convinced atheist, always will be. I for sure would never say any pledge that includes a recognition of God. At the same time I have particular strong Christian "cultural ties", perhaps even more so than most people that are Christian (in a religious sense). E.g. I went to mass in Greece on Mt. Parnassos, frequently visit a friend's concerts who sings Russian orthodox liturgical chants, most of my friends are religious (though maybe not always practicizing).
nickb64
formerly from OC (it's EXACTLY like on tv)[truth]
+77|5582|Greatest Nation on Earth(USA)

T1g3r217 wrote:

The pledge is recited by schoolchildren everyday; those of them who do not believe in only one God are essentially being told that they do not fit in with the rest of America.
Really, I have never seen/heard it recited in any classroom other than my 10th grade science class...

Maybe that's just a California thing.



On topic: I think we might as well leave it, but I don't care if they take it out, as it wasn't originally there.
S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6418|Chicago, IL
No, it's a pointless argument, only the "raging" atheists give a damn.  I said the pledge every morning for a decade or so, and never gave it a second thought.

The whole idea of the pledge is somewhat outdated in itself, but changing it is stupid
PureFodder
Member
+225|6256
I think the US is probably doing a lot beter than most in seperating church and state, so it's probably not too important

In England there appears to be a lot more religion pervasive in government and schools, but is more apathetic. I guess as the bulk of the religious popualtion of the country aren't particualrly motivated in the political sphere by religion (only 20% of Brits say they wouldn't vote for an athiest) then it's not widely seen as a problem that needs to be sorted. No-one cares enough to do anything about it either way.

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