BF2S Forums Religious or Agnostic/Atheist People?

CameronPoe wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Here there are some fine examples of Religion & Love:

The Crusades

The Inquisition

Armenian Genocide

Middle East Conflict

The Troubles

I won't include the Holocaust to be fair because many Nazis were atheists.

Small point: 'The Troubles' although most usually identified as a religious conflict is actually a national/territorial conflict.

CameronPoe wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Small point: 'The Troubles' although most usually identified as a religious conflict is actually a national/territorial conflict.

You are obviously more qualified than me to talk about Irish affairs, but isn't religion involved anyway?

It just so happens that the ethnically Irish are predominantly catholic and the ethnically British are predominantly protestant or presbyterian. It's kind of like a badge to tell what 'side of the fence' someone is on.

Vilham wrote:

"Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!"

sergeriver wrote:

Here there are some fine examples of Religion & Love:

The Crusades

The Inquisition

Armenian Genocide

Middle East Conflict

The Troubles

I won't include the Holocaust to be fair because many Nazis were atheists.

Last edited by doctastrangelove1964 (2006-11-15 18:27:49)

sergeriver wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Well, but there is a matter of faith involved.

No the conflict is about Nationalists/Republicans in the North (mostly catholics) wanting to have the six counties officially separate from UK and then merge into the Republic of Ireland and Loyalists/Unionists (mostly protestant) who wish to have the six counties remain as part of the UK indefinitely. Northern Ireland is an artificial state designed in the 20s to try an ensure a British majority on part of the island of Ireland so that the Brits could keep it when we drove them out during our war of independence (one of many wars/battles for independence). That artifical 'majority' is only 55% to 45% now (i.e. 10% and falling). Republicans engaged in guerrilla warfare/terrorism to try and end British governmental control over the six counties while Loyalists engaged in burning catholics out of their homes and engaging in other forms of terrorism. The religion thing is incidental. This is a territorial dispute.

Thanks for the History lesson, really.  I thought religion was a factor in the Troubles.  My mistake.

CameronPoe wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

It just so happens that the ethnically Irish are predominantly catholic and the ethnically British are predominantly protestant or presbyterian. It's kind of like a badge to tell what 'side of the fence' someone is on.

Well, but there is a matter of faith involved.

No the conflict is about Nationalists/Republicans in the North (mostly catholics) wanting to have the six counties officially separate from UK and then merge into the Republic of Ireland and Loyalists/Unionists (mostly protestant) who wish to have the six counties remain as part of the UK indefinitely. Northern Ireland is an artificial state designed in the 20s to try an ensure a British majority on part of the island of Ireland so that the Brits could keep it when we drove them out during our war of independence (one of many wars/battles for independence). That artifical 'majority' is only 55% to 45% now (i.e. 10% and falling). Republicans engaged in guerrilla warfare/terrorism to try and end British governmental control over the six counties while Loyalists engaged in burning catholics out of their homes and engaging in other forms of terrorism. The religion thing is incidental. This is a territorial dispute.

Last edited by IG-Calibre (2006-11-16 04:35:58)

B.Schuss wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

doctastrangelove1964 wrote:

Mid east conflict is more political and economic than religous. The Muslims where getting along fine with the Jews living in Palistine pre-israel but when Israel came in they got pissed off as they took their land and now continue to do so despite treaties and stuff.

The poll isn't about motivations, it's about the people involved in the crimes, wars, or whatever.  The Middle East countries are all religious, and I think there are religious motivations involved.

with all due respect, sir, but if this poll isn't about people's motivation for mass murder or genocide, then I propose to close it down immediately. Obviously, the way this poll is formulated and from the posts you have made so far, you are indeed implying that Religion may have been the primary cause for the majority of the atrocities committed by mankind.

And now you won't discuss that ?

If you are really only concerned with demographics ( i.e. statistics ), I am afraid you won't have much success here. Stats of the sort you'd be needing are hard to come by.

Personally, I'd say that religion indeed has played a role in the crimes against humanity and other atrocities you mentioned, but mostly during earlier times, for example the middle ages. In modern times, mass murder and genocide mostly had ethnical, political or territorial backgrounds, not religious.
Hitler, Stalin, Mao, the Balcans, Africa. Not about religion.

And if you get to the bottom of it, even the Middle East conflict is about territory.
Let me ask you a question: if the Jews were to leave Palestine and hand it back to the arabs, wouldn't you agree that the conflict between the two ethnic/religious groups would most likely end ?

Modern day conflicts are largely based on a multitude of factors and hardly ever one-dimensional.

And if I had to come up with an estimate, I'd say it's 50:50, maybe even 60:40 in "favor" of the agnostics/atheists.

CameronPoe wrote:

IG-Calibre wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

No the conflict is about Nationalists/Republicans in the North (mostly catholics) wanting to have the six counties officially separate from UK and then merge into the Republic of Ireland and Loyalists/Unionists (mostly protestant) who wish to have the six counties remain as part of the UK indefinitely. Northern Ireland is an artificial state designed in the 20s to try an ensure a British majority on part of the island of Ireland so that the Brits could keep it when we drove them out during our war of independence (one of many wars/battles for independence). That artifical 'majority' is only 55% to 45% now (i.e. 10% and falling). Republicans engaged in guerrilla warfare/terrorism to try and end British governmental control over the six counties while Loyalists engaged in burning catholics out of their homes and engaging in other forms of terrorism. The religion thing is incidental. This is a territorial dispute.

That's Balls CP. While the above is true. There is no denying Sectarian murder was rife in N.Ireland, and that  was simply down to religion. To say it wasn't a factor is simply naive, people were murdered because of their religion, if they were Catholic that was justification enough. While random sectarian murder was never the agenda of the IRA, it certainly was of loyalist/British forces,  An  examples of this would be the Shankill Butchers ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shankill_Butchers ), or any of the thousands of murders that are now being independently investigated uncovering collusion between the Crown forces & Loyalist paramilitaries in the murder of innocent Catholics.

Yes but the reason for that being that there was a high likelihood that said catholics were of Irish ethnicity, likely to vote for parties that desire the reunification of Northern Ireland and the Republic. It wasn't for any religious ideological dispute (for instance regarding whether the 'virgin birth' really was a 'virgin birth', etc.).

Although I do suppose Paisley always used to rant about how the North would be governed from the Vatican if it ever fell into Republican hands so there is some element of religious fervour about it.

Last edited by IG-Calibre (2006-11-16 05:57:01)

.:XDR:.PureFodder wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

No the conflict is about Nationalists/Republicans in the North (mostly catholics) wanting to have the six counties officially separate from UK and then merge into the Republic of Ireland and Loyalists/Unionists (mostly protestant) who wish to have the six counties remain as part of the UK indefinitely. Northern Ireland is an artificial state designed in the 20s to try an ensure a British majority on part of the island of Ireland so that the Brits could keep it when we drove them out during our war of independence (one of many wars/battles for independence). That artifical 'majority' is only 55% to 45% now (i.e. 10% and falling). Republicans engaged in guerrilla warfare/terrorism to try and end British governmental control over the six counties while Loyalists engaged in burning catholics out of their homes and engaging in other forms of terrorism. The religion thing is incidental. This is a territorial dispute.

Thanks for the History lesson, really.  I thought religion was a factor in the Troubles.  My mistake.

It's not like the catholics and protestants started killing each other over whether or not that wafer thing they eat is literally the body of christ or not.

IG-Calibre wrote:

You do suppose do you? well let me tell you, first and foremost the Protestant extremists are Anti Catholic not Anti Irish, "No pope here" being their mantra, no interference from Rome in the governance of N.Ireland. "No surrender"

Edit: this is why the N.Ireland situation is so complicated. Look back at the United Irishmen some of who were Protestant,  they fall into the category of those who wish to live in a Republic. Then the conflict divides along sectarian lines - Protestant against the Catholic church (national identity is not of concern only religion).  If you understand this you will greatly enrich your understanding of your History Cameron..

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-11-16 06:01:19)

Vilham wrote:

EVieira wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

The poll isn't about motivations, it's about the people involved in the crimes, wars, or whatever.  The Middle East countries are all religious, and I think there are religious motivations involved.

Your poll then is completely useless. Religious people are the vast majority, so it is OBVIOUS most will be religious. What point are you trying to make?

Your poll is like asking: Who is responsible for most war crimes in Africa:
                                      a) White people
                                      b) non-white people

White people. Through a very long strained list of actions.

CameronPoe wrote:

IG-Calibre wrote:

You do suppose do you? well let me tell you, first and foremost the Protestant extremists are Anti Catholic not Anti Irish, "No pope here" being their mantra, no interference from Rome in the governance of N.Ireland. "No surrender"

Edit: this is why the N.Ireland situation is so complicated. Look back at the United Irishmen some of who were Protestant,  they fall into the category of those who wish to live in a Republic. Then the conflict divides along sectarian lines - Protestant against the Catholic church (national identity is not of concern only religion).  If you understand this you will greatly enrich your understanding of your History Cameron..

By that rationale the Brits in teh north would be quite happy to live within the Republic if we set up a 'catholic-free' zone up there. I'm an atheist and stanuch Republican. For me religion has nothing to do with it. Maybe the Irish side are more nationalism-based whereas the Brits are more motivated along religious lines but what it boils down to in the end is the question of sovereignty.