BF2S Forums just a reminder as to who the bad guys are in Iraq.

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

??? well???

I can't understand or empathise with someone who purposely murders an innocent person or in the case of war, a civilian non-combatant. I can see maybe why someone might do it when driven by revenge but it's not condonable.

oh ok, cuz I though you had suggested the we try and understand the terrorists and their cause then try and appease them so they stop killing.

Understand the overall cause of the group given that that's what's driving them. Know your enemy. Understanding individual terrorists, their personal drivers and why they would resort to killing innocents is a futile exercise however. Those activities are completely abhorrent and reprehensible. Knowing the overall cause you can then establish whether their cause is unjust/unreasonable, e.g. that of Al Qaeda, or whether it is just/reasonable, e.g. that of the Palestinians. Obviously this is all opinion-based and your view of what is or isn't just may (lol!) differ radically.

I don't like the word appease, I don't appease true terrorists. Let's use reason/compromise for those people you regard as terrorists (Palestinians in general) and I regard as those that have been done an injustice...

Reasoning/compromising with Al Qaeda is futile and frankly retarded because they are very 'black and white' on their desire to destroy the west. A preposterous notion that must be contained. One cannot attempt to understand them or reason with them. That is blatantly obvious. Their cause is pure evil.

Reasoning/compromising with the Palestinians? By all means. The Oslo Accords and the subsequent Camp David talks between Yasser Arafat and Ehud Barak brought Palestine/Israel to the brink of a settled two-state peace. It seems that the current government of Palestine cannot be compromised with however. We will have to wait for another opportunity for peace at some point in the future, although pre-emptive unilateral steps towards peace can be taken in the meantime. It is unlikely that the likes of Hamas can be reasoned with or be treated as a trustworthy partner in steps towards peace in the short term, especially while they engage in crimes such as that of killing civilians.

The former quartermaster general of the IRA holds the post of Minister for Education in the devolved parliament in Stormont in Northern Ireland after 25 years of violence in the north similar to that which occurs in Palestine. The IRA laid down their arms and agreed to engage in politics as part of the peace process. Their cause was obviously just. Their methods unjust. The UK government did not intransigently watch the carnage unfold - they engaged with Sinn Féin, the political wing of the IRA, and today we have relative peace in Northern Ireland. An example of what can be achieved through compromise and understanding.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-11-14 17:05:09)

lowing wrote:

I asked before and you didn't answer so I will ask again. Suppose you got your way, and a solution is found. Are you willing to forgive the crimes already commited? If not, I doubt you will get as far as finding any solution.

Of course I would forgive. That's the very basis upon which the Northern Irish peace process is based. All of the paramilitary groups that signed up to the peace agreement (on all sides of the divide) were given amnesty and set free from their prisons and from the risk of prosecution for past acts. If you don't let go of the past, what hope have we for the future? It is a ver very difficult process but surely it is worth it in the long run.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-11-14 17:22:10)

lowing wrote:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/11/14/iraq.main/index.html

There are those who want to rebuild Iraq, and those that want to keep it in shambles

and you can tell by the posts on this forum who the libs side with.

Hey mate, +1 to being ignorant! You have got to be pushing the most poorly formed slander pumped propaganda I have seen. Just because someone doesn't support the war, doesn't mean they condone such things. I wonder how you would feel if a posted a write-up on the children's hospital that was vaporized in the original bombardment of Baghdad, then said "this is what conservatives side with."  Next time you flaunt your inability to think from a different point of view...save it. Your pathetic attempt here is so poorly planned, it makes the rest of America seems stupid. If anybody is working to destroy America, its you, your the one who is creating rifts between your own people; thus dividing our cause instead of creating a unifying force. I certainly find it funny that someone willingly buys into a mentality where a political party choice means you support kidnappers and the like. So yeah, I have some liberal points of view, I'm a democrat, and I'm proud of it. I pride my self on my political choices because of fools like you, every time your pathetic red scare tactics fall on deaf ears I feel better about it too.

liquix wrote:

lowing wrote:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/11/14/iraq.main/index.html

There are those who want to rebuild Iraq, and those that want to keep it in shambles

and you can tell by the posts on this forum who the libs side with.

Hey mate, +1 to being ignorant! You have got to be pushing the most poorly formed slander pumped propaganda I have seen. Just because someone doesn't support the war, doesn't mean they condone such things. I wonder how you would feel if a posted a write-up on the children's hospital that was vaporized in the original bombardment of Baghdad, then said "this is what conservatives side with."  Next time you flaunt your inability to think from a different point of view...save it. Your pathetic attempt here is so poorly planned, it makes the rest of America seems stupid. If anybody is working to destroy America, its you, your the one who is creating rifts between your own people; thus dividing our cause instead of creating a unifying force. I certainly find it funny that someone willingly buys into a mentality where a political party choice means you support kidnappers and the like. So yeah, I have some liberal points of view, I'm a democrat, and I'm proud of it. I pride my self on my political choices because of fools like you, every time your pathetic red scare tactics fall on deaf ears I feel better about it too.

I don't tell you what you believe, I tell you how you come across.

1. YOU bash Bush and the US 10 times more than terrorists.

2. YOU post threads that say the US actually attacked itself so we could go to war in the ME.

3. YOU call Bush a war criminal, which is bullshit, but I neverread anywhere from you that the terrorists are war criminals.

4. YOU blame Bush for ALL the deaths in Iraq, you do not blame the terrorists.

5. YOU think terrorists should be negotiated with and understood.

6. YOU have even post topics debating who is the bigger terrorist Bin Laden or Bush. 

7. hell, you have even blamed BUSH for the fuckin weather. (Katrina)

So don't preach to me about my "black and white view on the world" the topics posted in this forum by you all reeks of black and white. It is all Bushes fault, it is all Israels fault. Never mind the ME was all screwed up and violent long before Bush OR Israel. YOur black and white view on the world is, get rid of Bush and get rid of Israel and we will all be running throw the fields holding hands feeding unicorns and shit. DOn't talk to me about BLACK AND WHITE. And the funny thing is. most of you talking shit still live with your parents and don't really even have a clue as to the "REAL WORLD " is all about.

lowing wrote:

liquix wrote:

lowing wrote:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/11/14/iraq.main/index.html

There are those who want to rebuild Iraq, and those that want to keep it in shambles

and you can tell by the posts on this forum who the libs side with.

Hey mate, +1 to being ignorant! You have got to be pushing the most poorly formed slander pumped propaganda I have seen. Just because someone doesn't support the war, doesn't mean they condone such things. I wonder how you would feel if a posted a write-up on the children's hospital that was vaporized in the original bombardment of Baghdad, then said "this is what conservatives side with."  Next time you flaunt your inability to think from a different point of view...save it. Your pathetic attempt here is so poorly planned, it makes the rest of America seems stupid. If anybody is working to destroy America, its you, your the one who is creating rifts between your own people; thus dividing our cause instead of creating a unifying force. I certainly find it funny that someone willingly buys into a mentality where a political party choice means you support kidnappers and the like. So yeah, I have some liberal points of view, I'm a democrat, and I'm proud of it. I pride my self on my political choices because of fools like you, every time your pathetic red scare tactics fall on deaf ears I feel better about it too.

I don't tell you what you believe, I tell you how you come across.

1. YOU bash Bush and the US 10 times more than terrorists.

2. YOU post threads that say the US actually attacked itself so we could go to war in the ME.

3. YOU call Bush a war criminal, which is bullshit, but I neverread anywhere from you that the terrorists are war criminals.

4. YOU blame Bush for ALL the deaths in Iraq, you do not blame the terrorists.

5. YOU think terrorists should be negotiated with and understood.

6. YOU have even post topics debating who is the bigger terrorist Bin Laden or Bush. 

7. hell, you have even blamed BUSH for the fuckin weather. (Katrina)

So don't preach to me about my "black and white view on the world" the topics posted in this forum by you all reeks of black and white. It is all Bushes fault, it is all Israels fault. Never mind the ME was all screwed up and violent long before Bush OR Israel. YOur black and white view on the world is, get rid of Bush and get rid of Israel and we will all be running throw the fields holding hands feeding unicorns and shit. DOn't talk to me about BLACK AND WHITE. And the funny thing is. most of you talking shit still live with your parents and don't really even have a clue as to the "REAL WORLD " is all about.

Thank you for proving my point once again Lowing. Also, did I ever once say any of the things you just listed? No. Every time you try to shove the ENTIRE gamut into that infantile list of things, you just seem stupid. Why would anybody capable of human thought want to make up their mind before they hear the issue?  When you say "you" I assume you are targeting me, and by this you must be claiming that I have done any of the things you just said. The truth  is, I haven't. So, I find it pretty strange that you say such things with absolutely no warrant. Once again, YOU are the one who is dividing our country. I can't see how your helping the American cause one bit by throwing slander at your own people instead of trying to unify. But its okay, you keep proving how smart you are by directing comments at a fictitious representation of me. Keep on workin' that and keep on quoting things I didn't say.

Also if you want to appear more ignorant please notice:

Lowing "I don't tell you what you believe..."

fast forward ten bullets

Lowing "YOur black and white view on the world is, get rid of Bush and get rid of Israel and we will all be running throw the fields holding hands feeding unicorns and shit."

So I find it pretty strange that you said you don't tell me what I believe, then proceeded to tell me what I believe. Good job, +2 for ignorance.

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

oh ok, cuz I though you had suggested the we try and understand the terrorists and their cause then try and appease them so they stop killing.

Understand the overall cause of the group given that that's what's driving them. Know your enemy. Understanding individual terrorists, their personal drivers and why they would resort to killing innocents is a futile exercise however. Those activities are completely abhorrent and reprehensible. Knowing the overall cause you can then establish whether their cause is unjust/unreasonable, e.g. that of Al Qaeda, or whether it is just/reasonable, e.g. that of the Palestinians. Obviously this is all opinion-based and your view of what is or isn't just may (lol!) differ radically.

I don't like the word appease, I don't appease true terrorists. Let's use reason/compromise for those people you regard as terrorists (Palestinians in general) and I regard as those that have been done an injustice...

Reasoning/compromising with Al Qaeda is futile and frankly retarded because they are very 'black and white' on their desire to destroy the west. A preposterous notion that must be contained. One cannot attempt to understand them or reason with them. That is blatantly obvious. Their cause is pure evil.

Reasoning/compromising with the Palestinians? By all means. The Oslo Accords and the subsequent Camp David talks between Yasser Arafat and Ehud Barak brought Palestine/Israel to the brink of a settled two-state peace. It seems that the current government of Palestine cannot be compromised with however. We will have to wait for another opportunity for peace at some point in the future, although pre-emptive unilateral steps towards peace can be taken in the meantime. It is unlikely that the likes of Hamas can be reasoned with or be treated as a trustworthy partner in steps towards peace in the short term, especially while they engage in crimes such as that of killing civilians.

The former quartermaster general of the IRA holds the post of Minister for Education in the devolved parliament in Stormont in Northern Ireland after 25 years of violence in the north similar to that which occurs in Palestine. The IRA laid down their arms and agreed to engage in politics as part of the peace process. Their cause was obviously just. Their methods unjust. The UK government did not intransigently watch the carnage unfold - they engaged with Sinn Féin, the political wing of the IRA, and today we have relative peace in Northern Ireland. An example of what can be achieved through compromise and understanding.

Very well worded Cam, however, I don't see myself caring why terrorists commit these crimes. There is no reason in the world that can be offered to make me think, "oh ok, I get it now. I don't get it, I don't want to get it. I want them to be hunted down and put to sleep until THEY realize their actions are futile. Then when all that has commited these crimes are punished, then we can all sit down and figure out solutions. Not a reality I know. I do not support giving 1 inch of dialog to these groups. PS, I don't care if they are Palistinian, American, ( Timothy McVigh) ( uni-bomber) etc....Israeli, Saudi, Irish, etc.....I don't care.

I asked before and you didn't answer so I will ask again. Suppose you got your way, and a solution is found. Are you willing to forgive the crimes already commited? If not, I doubt you will get as far as finding any solution.

If you forefit understanding of others, your freedoms deserve to be forefit as well.

jonsimon wrote:

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Understand the overall cause of the group given that that's what's driving them. Know your enemy. Understanding individual terrorists, their personal drivers and why they would resort to killing innocents is a futile exercise however. Those activities are completely abhorrent and reprehensible. Knowing the overall cause you can then establish whether their cause is unjust/unreasonable, e.g. that of Al Qaeda, or whether it is just/reasonable, e.g. that of the Palestinians. Obviously this is all opinion-based and your view of what is or isn't just may (lol!) differ radically.

I don't like the word appease, I don't appease true terrorists. Let's use reason/compromise for those people you regard as terrorists (Palestinians in general) and I regard as those that have been done an injustice...

Reasoning/compromising with Al Qaeda is futile and frankly retarded because they are very 'black and white' on their desire to destroy the west. A preposterous notion that must be contained. One cannot attempt to understand them or reason with them. That is blatantly obvious. Their cause is pure evil.

Reasoning/compromising with the Palestinians? By all means. The Oslo Accords and the subsequent Camp David talks between Yasser Arafat and Ehud Barak brought Palestine/Israel to the brink of a settled two-state peace. It seems that the current government of Palestine cannot be compromised with however. We will have to wait for another opportunity for peace at some point in the future, although pre-emptive unilateral steps towards peace can be taken in the meantime. It is unlikely that the likes of Hamas can be reasoned with or be treated as a trustworthy partner in steps towards peace in the short term, especially while they engage in crimes such as that of killing civilians.

The former quartermaster general of the IRA holds the post of Minister for Education in the devolved parliament in Stormont in Northern Ireland after 25 years of violence in the north similar to that which occurs in Palestine. The IRA laid down their arms and agreed to engage in politics as part of the peace process. Their cause was obviously just. Their methods unjust. The UK government did not intransigently watch the carnage unfold - they engaged with Sinn Féin, the political wing of the IRA, and today we have relative peace in Northern Ireland. An example of what can be achieved through compromise and understanding.

Very well worded Cam, however, I don't see myself caring why terrorists commit these crimes. There is no reason in the world that can be offered to make me think, "oh ok, I get it now. I don't get it, I don't want to get it. I want them to be hunted down and put to sleep until THEY realize their actions are futile. Then when all that has commited these crimes are punished, then we can all sit down and figure out solutions. Not a reality I know. I do not support giving 1 inch of dialog to these groups. PS, I don't care if they are Palistinian, American, ( Timothy McVigh) ( uni-bomber) etc....Israeli, Saudi, Irish, etc.....I don't care.

I asked before and you didn't answer so I will ask again. Suppose you got your way, and a solution is found. Are you willing to forgive the crimes already commited? If not, I doubt you will get as far as finding any solution.

If you forefit understanding of others, your freedoms deserve to be forefit as well.

tread carefully there jonsimon. I already stated I refuse to support dialog with those that kill women and children. Are you really, REALLY, going to stand by your statement that such animals need our understanding?? Please don't make this easy on me.

lowing wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

If you forefit understanding of others, your freedoms deserve to be forefit as well.

tread carefully there jonsimon. I already stated I refuse to support dialog with those that kill women and children. Are you really, REALLY, going to stand by your statement that such animals need our understanding?? Please don't make this easy on me.

lowing, "understanding" is not the same as "supporting".  Ever heard of "Know your enemy"?  Why you aren't compelled to understand why terrorists act the way they do is beyond me.... someone such as yourself, who obviously despises them, doesn't take the time to at least understand, or acknowledge why these human beings are murdering innocent people?

So everytime there's a serial killer on the loose, instead of looking for a motive, and trying to understand why the killer is killing, detectives are just supposed to hate him?  How will that help at all?  It probably won't........ the first step to combatting terrorism, and evil in general for that matter, is understanding it, it's message, it's motives, and the source of the hatred.  Sure, you could try to bomb terrorists to hell, but fighting an enemy you can't see is almost as impossible as fighting an idealogy.  It just doesn't work. 

It's like going to Yankee Stadium and trying to kill everyone who thinks Jack Black is funny.  Simple metaphor, I know, but you have to get it to your head that ideas can't be destroyed.

lowing wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

If you forefit understanding of others, your freedoms deserve to be forefit as well.

tread carefully there jonsimon. I already stated I refuse to support dialog with those that kill women and children. Are you really, REALLY, going to stand by your statement that such animals need our understanding?? Please don't make this easy on me.

How can you solve a problem if you don't understand it?

Yes, we must understand EVERYONE, no matter what they think or why they think it, for we cannot deal with them otherwise.

Education is the root of moderation, and the enemy of extremism. Unless you support terrorism, you should agree with me.

jonsimon wrote:

. . . Education is the root of moderation, and the enemy of extremism. Unless you support terrorism, you should agree with me.

Education will eliminate terrorism!  School FTW!  *Al Qaeda dirty bomb detonates in background* Damn, kinda backfired.

jonsimon wrote:

lowing wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

If you forefit understanding of others, your freedoms deserve to be forefit as well.

tread carefully there jonsimon. I already stated I refuse to support dialog with those that kill women and children. Are you really, REALLY, going to stand by your statement that such animals need our understanding?? Please don't make this easy on me.

How can you solve a problem if you don't understand it?

Yes, we must understand EVERYONE, no matter what they think or why they think it, for we cannot deal with them otherwise.

Education is the root of moderation, and the enemy of extremism. Unless you support terrorism, you should agree with me.

Nope, terrorists should be bowled over by a unified world against it. no understanding no appeasement, no dialog. Sorry I know it sounds extreme, but unless you want to "understand" them so you can hunt them down and kill them then I don't support it.

lowing wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

lowing wrote:

tread carefully there jonsimon. I already stated I refuse to support dialog with those that kill women and children. Are you really, REALLY, going to stand by your statement that such animals need our understanding?? Please don't make this easy on me.

How can you solve a problem if you don't understand it?

Yes, we must understand EVERYONE, no matter what they think or why they think it, for we cannot deal with them otherwise.

Education is the root of moderation, and the enemy of extremism. Unless you support terrorism, you should agree with me.

Nope, terrorists should be bowled over by a unified world against it. no understanding no appeasement, no dialog. Sorry I know it sounds extreme, but unless you want to "understand" them so you can hunt them down and kill them then I don't support it.

And if in the process of understanding terrorism, one realizes that killing terrorists breeds more terrorists? What then? Create millions of terrorists through violence until you are overrun? Your "kill everything that moves" solution has serious flaws in it.

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Well, education doesn't solve the problem alone, but it certainly handles a lot of the issue.

Especially when you can't get educated because the terrorists are kidnapping the educators and killing them.

Why do you think terrorists are so focused on educators?  They know what's up...

Actually, they employ educators. Their ranks are built upon the recruits they gain through propaganda, a form of biased education. The terrorists use understanding to their advantage, if we don't follow their lead, we have already lost.