BF2S Forums Palestinian PM offers to resign

lowing wrote:

Although Israel has killed civilians in this conflict, it is because the terrorists are hiding amongst them. To me that means the terrorists KILLED those civilians. It isn't Israeli policy to attack and kill women and children. It is the policy of the terror groups in Palestine however.

They aren't terrorists.  They are fighting against illegal occupation, murder, and illegal land grabbing.  That makes them defenders.  So what if they take the fight to Israel?  That's part of their defense.

lowing wrote:

Like I said before, as much of a patriot as I am, the second our govt. adopts a policy to war on civilians and women and children, I will turn against my govt. Actually if that ever happened, there probably would be a revolution in this country.

Then why don't you turn against Israel?  They murder innocent "civilians and women and children" everyday.

lowing wrote:

The UN drew up papers to create Israel, the Arabs opposed it. Are you telling me that there is ANY land in the ME that Jews could have settled without conflict with the Arabs? Given the fact that the Jews have every right to live in the ME as much as any Arab.

The U.N. had no right to do so.  They also did it AFTER the people of Israel used terrorism to steal the land and murder the people living on it...how is that just?

lowing wrote:

History shows the Jews as the victims, NOT the aggressors. Aggression is the characteristics of the  Muslim nations against EVERYONE. Who else has the Jews shown aggression to, other than those that constantly attack it?

History shows the Jews are the aggressors.  Even in WWII when so many Jews were massacred, it was a direct response to the oppression of German citizens by the Jewish "elite" who controlled the banking, manufacturing, retail, health-care, etc...making the Germans live with sub-par wages while the Jews in Germany got rich.  The Jews held all the positions of value, THAT was the biggest problem Hitler had with the Jews.  That and the fact that the Jewish controlled museums and art shops wouldn't buy his paintings.

While I certainly do not condone the massacre of millions of Jews, I can see the other side of fence here.  No the Jews weren't "killing" anyone, they just didn't let them succeed in life.

In the ME, the Jews were the aggressors, and have been from the very beginning.  They don't even believe Christ was the Messiah, yet they claim Jerusalem is theirs for "holy" reasons.  They have been consistently murdering people and stealing from them since recorded history began to further this "holy" agenda, which I might add, is the complete denial and destruction of Christian religion.

Please bring to the table more than wishful thinking.  I for one am not buying it.

Last edited by HM1{N} (2006-11-12 07:15:09)

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

Although Israel has killed civilians in this conflict, it is because the terrorists are hiding amongst them. To me that means the terrorists KILLED those civilians. It isn't Israeli policy to attack and kill women and children. It is the policy of the terror groups in Palestine however.

Like I said before, as much of a patriot as I am, the second our govt. adopts a policy to war on civilians and women and children, I will turn against my govt. Actually if that ever happened, there probably would be a revolution in this country.

The UN drew up papers to create Israel, the Arabs opposed it. Are you telling me that there is ANY land in the ME that Jews could have settled without conflict with the Arabs? Given the fact that the Jews have every right to live in the ME as much as any Arab.

History shows the Jews as the victims, NOT the aggressors. Aggression is the characteristics of the  Muslim nations against EVERYONE. Who else has the Jews shown aggression to, other than those that constantly attack it?

This is going nowhere Lowing - we have completely irreconcilable differences on this. I don't agree with the UN on this, I don't agree with the assertion that they had a right to a state in the middle east and your assertion that they are not aggressive is frankly ludicrous to me given they initiated the Suez Canal crisis. I also hold Israel to blame for the civilian deaths. Britain never firebombed Irish housing estates in Northern Ireland in response to IRA bombings, the Brits fought more intelligently than that - and whaddaya know? There is relative peace there now. The stated aim of Zionists is to take all the land of Palestine - something that influences the direction of their government as they 'aggressively' steal more land from the Palestinians.

IS there any part of my post that ISN"T TRUE???

Who else has Israel shown agression to other than those that want to destroy it??

Do the JEWS NOT have the right to live in the ME especially Jeruselam??

What land would the ARABS allow the Jews to exist in peace in the ME??

When has Israel used women and children as shields or conducted attacks from civilian populated areas??

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Although Israel has killed civilians in this conflict, it is because the terrorists are hiding amongst them. To me that means the terrorists KILLED those civilians. It isn't Israeli policy to attack and kill women and children. It is the policy of the terror groups in Palestine however.

Like I said before, as much of a patriot as I am, the second our govt. adopts a policy to war on civilians and women and children, I will turn against my govt. Actually if that ever happened, there probably would be a revolution in this country.

The UN drew up papers to create Israel, the Arabs opposed it. Are you telling me that there is ANY land in the ME that Jews could have settled without conflict with the Arabs? Given the fact that the Jews have every right to live in the ME as much as any Arab.

History shows the Jews as the victims, NOT the aggressors. Aggression is the characteristics of the  Muslim nations against EVERYONE. Who else has the Jews shown aggression to, other than those that constantly attack it?

This is going nowhere Lowing - we have completely irreconcilable differences on this. I don't agree with the UN on this, I don't agree with the assertion that they had a right to a state in the middle east and your assertion that they are not aggressive is frankly ludicrous to me given they initiated the Suez Canal crisis. I also hold Israel to blame for the civilian deaths. Britain never firebombed Irish housing estates in Northern Ireland in response to IRA bombings, the Brits fought more intelligently than that - and whaddaya know? There is relative peace there now. The stated aim of Zionists is to take all the land of Palestine - something that influences the direction of their government as they 'aggressively' steal more land from the Palestinians.

lowing wrote:

IS there any part of my post that ISN"T TRUE???

You aren't qualifying what you say.  It's like this:  Lowing and his boys come to my neighborhood and illegally occupy it, stealing our homes and murdering my grandmother because I fired an RPG at their tank and retreated a few blocks back.  Ask yourself this question: why did I fire the RPG?  Because I'm a terrorist?  NO, because I was fighting against an illegal occupation.

lowing wrote:

Who else has Israel shown agression to other than those that want to destroy it??

Those innocent people it murdered to carve out Israel in the first place.

lowing wrote:

Do the JEWS NOT have the right to live in the ME especially Jeruselam??

I don't know, do you have a right to steal my home and live in it?

lowing wrote:

What land would the ARABS allow the Jews to exist in peace in the ME??

Any land that isn't theirs (the Arabs).

lowing wrote:

When has Israel used women and children as shields or conducted attacks from civilian populated areas??

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= … n%26sa%3DN

http://www.btselem.org/English/Email_Up … 101_HS.jpg

Any other questions?

HM1{N} wrote:

lowing wrote:

Although Israel has killed civilians in this conflict, it is because the terrorists are hiding amongst them. To me that means the terrorists KILLED those civilians. It isn't Israeli policy to attack and kill women and children. It is the policy of the terror groups in Palestine however.

They aren't terrorists.  They are fighting against illegal occupation, murder, and illegal land grabbing.  That makes them defenders.  So what if they take the fight to Israel?  That's part of their defense.

lowing wrote:

Like I said before, as much of a patriot as I am, the second our govt. adopts a policy to war on civilians and women and children, I will turn against my govt. Actually if that ever happened, there probably would be a revolution in this country.

Then why don't you turn against Israel?  They murder innocent "civilians and women and children" everyday.

lowing wrote:

The UN drew up papers to create Israel, the Arabs opposed it. Are you telling me that there is ANY land in the ME that Jews could have settled without conflict with the Arabs? Given the fact that the Jews have every right to live in the ME as much as any Arab.

The U.N. had no right to do so.  They also did it AFTER the people of Israel used terrorism to steal the land and murder the people living on it...how is that just?

lowing wrote:

History shows the Jews as the victims, NOT the aggressors. Aggression is the characteristics of the  Muslim nations against EVERYONE. Who else has the Jews shown aggression to, other than those that constantly attack it?

History shows the Jews are the aggressors.  Even in WWII when so many Jews were massacred, it was a direct response to the oppression of German citizens by the Jewish "elite" who controlled the banking, manufacturing, retail, health-care, etc...making the Germans live with sub-par wages while the Jews in Germany got rich.  The Jews held all the positions of value, THAT was the biggest problem Hitler had with the Jews.  That and the fact that the Jewish controlled museums and art shops wouldn't buy his paintings.

While I certainly do not condone the massacre of millions of Jews, I can see the other side of fence here.  No the Jews weren't "killing" anyone, they just didn't let them succeed in life.

In the ME, the Jews were the aggressors, and have been from the very beginning.  They don't even believe Christ was the Messiah, yet they claim Jerusalem is theirs for "holy" reasons.  They have been consistently murdering people and stealing from them since recorded history began to further this "holy" agenda, which I might add, is the complete denial and destruction of Christian religion.

Please bring to the table more than wishful thinking.  I for one am not buying it.

They are terrorists, they purposely target women and children. period.

The problem is BOTH JEWS and Muslims have every right to live in on that land. The Muslims just don't want to share. Please show me links to articles that show Israel targeted women and children to steal land. show me the land they stole. I hope you are not going to include the land acquired by Israel in a war started by the Arab nations surrounding it. Don't bitch about losing a war you started. to the victors goes the spoils.

I don't turn against Israel because they do not prrposely target women and children. Women and children get killed because the terrorist hide among them and launch attacks. I already posted the articles supporting this.

The JEWS are the agressors in WW2?? Well, that certainly is a new spin on the topic.

The Jews "don't even believe that Christ was the Messiah"??   Did I miss something here?? Are you telling me that the MUSLIMS view Christ as the MESSIAH, and therefore have all the reason in the world to exclusively hold Jerusalem to itself??? Boy, now I am confused. here is another little news flash for ya. Jeruslalem was suggificant religiously for both Jews and Muslims long before Christ existed.

Last edited by lowing (2006-11-12 07:53:52)

lowing wrote:

HM1{N} wrote:

lowing wrote:

Although Israel has killed civilians in this conflict, it is because the terrorists are hiding amongst them. To me that means the terrorists KILLED those civilians. It isn't Israeli policy to attack and kill women and children. It is the policy of the terror groups in Palestine however.

They aren't terrorists.  They are fighting against illegal occupation, murder, and illegal land grabbing.  That makes them defenders.  So what if they take the fight to Israel?  That's part of their defense.

lowing wrote:

Like I said before, as much of a patriot as I am, the second our govt. adopts a policy to war on civilians and women and children, I will turn against my govt. Actually if that ever happened, there probably would be a revolution in this country.

Then why don't you turn against Israel?  They murder innocent "civilians and women and children" everyday.

lowing wrote:

The UN drew up papers to create Israel, the Arabs opposed it. Are you telling me that there is ANY land in the ME that Jews could have settled without conflict with the Arabs? Given the fact that the Jews have every right to live in the ME as much as any Arab.

The U.N. had no right to do so.  They also did it AFTER the people of Israel used terrorism to steal the land and murder the people living on it...how is that just?

lowing wrote:

History shows the Jews as the victims, NOT the aggressors. Aggression is the characteristics of the  Muslim nations against EVERYONE. Who else has the Jews shown aggression to, other than those that constantly attack it?

History shows the Jews are the aggressors.  Even in WWII when so many Jews were massacred, it was a direct response to the oppression of German citizens by the Jewish "elite" who controlled the banking, manufacturing, retail, health-care, etc...making the Germans live with sub-par wages while the Jews in Germany got rich.  The Jews held all the positions of value, THAT was the biggest problem Hitler had with the Jews.  That and the fact that the Jewish controlled museums and art shops wouldn't buy his paintings.

While I certainly do not condone the massacre of millions of Jews, I can see the other side of fence here.  No the Jews weren't "killing" anyone, they just didn't let them succeed in life.

In the ME, the Jews were the aggressors, and have been from the very beginning.  They don't even believe Christ was the Messiah, yet they claim Jerusalem is theirs for "holy" reasons.  They have been consistently murdering people and stealing from them since recorded history began to further this "holy" agenda, which I might add, is the complete denial and destruction of Christian religion.

Please bring to the table more than wishful thinking.  I for one am not buying it.

They are terrorists, they purposely target women and children. period.

The problem is BOTH JEWS and Muslims have every right to live in on that land. The Muslims just don't want to share. Please show me links to articles that show Israel targeted women and children to steal land. show me the land they stole. I hope you are not going to include the land acquired by Israel in a war started by the Arab nations surrounding it. Don't bitch about losing a war you started. to the victors goes the spoils.

First link: http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm

In here you will find the origin of the conflict.  I will paraphrase for you: "Moses led the Israelites out of EGYPT and murdered the Canaanites, thus stealing their land".  That is the root of this conflict. 

Modern times:   The Jews of Palestine responded to the White Paper and the Holocaust by organizing illegal immigration to Palestine from occupied Europe, through the "Institution for Illegal Immigration" (Hamossad L'aliya Beth).  Illegal immigration (Aliya Bet)  was organized by the Jewish Agency between 1939 and 1942...

Same link ^^^

How Israel was formed in the 50's:  http://electronicintifada.net/forrefere … haron.html

Please note the terrorists actions by Sharon and his Jewish counterparts.  Interesting reading at the least, he is a war criminal to this day...

lowing wrote:

I don't turn against Israel because they do not prrposely target women and children. Women and children get killed because the terrorist hide among them and launch attacks. I already posted the articles supporting this.

O'RLY? 
http://qumsiyeh.org/targetingcivilians/
http://www.trentarthur.info/archives/001346.html
http://www.crimesofwar.org/thebook/civi … arget.html
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article4802.shtml
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engmde020252006
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle … emID=10711

lowing wrote:

The JEWS are the agressors in WW2?? Well, that certainly is a new spin on the topic.

The Jews "don't even believe that Christ was the Messiah"??   Did I miss something here?? Are you telling me that the MUSLIMS view Christ as the MESSIAH, and therefore have all the reason in the world to exclusively hold Jerusalem to itself??? Boy, now I am confused.

Don't try to spin what I said...I said I could see the other side of the fence and the reasons for what happened.  Did I condone what happened then?  NO  Do I believe itjust?  NO.

What the Muslims believe is irrelevant here and with this continued conflict, the fact remains IT IS THEIR LAND.

HM1{N} wrote:

lowing wrote:

HM1{N} wrote:

lowing wrote:

This is going nowhere Lowing - we have completely irreconcilable differences on this. I don't agree with the UN on this, I don't agree with the assertion that they had a right to a state in the middle east and your assertion that they are not aggressive is frankly ludicrous to me given they initiated the Suez Canal crisis. I also hold Israel to blame for the civilian deaths. Britain never firebombed Irish housing estates in Northern Ireland in response to IRA bombings, the Brits fought more intelligently than that - and whaddaya know? There is relative peace there now. The stated aim of Zionists is to take all the land of Palestine - something that influences the direction of their government as they 'aggressively' steal more land from the Palestinians.

lowing wrote:

IS there any part of my post that ISN"T TRUE???

You aren't qualifying what you say.  It's like this:  Lowing and his boys come to my neighborhood and illegally occupy it, stealing our homes and murdering my grandmother because I fired an RPG at their tank and retreated a few blocks back.  Ask yourself this question: why did I fire the RPG?  Because I'm a terrorist?  NO, because I was fighting against an illegal occupation.

lowing wrote:

Who else has Israel shown agression to other than those that want to destroy it??

Those innocent people it murdered to carve out Israel in the first place.

lowing wrote:

Do the JEWS NOT have the right to live in the ME especially Jeruselam??

I don't know, do you have a right to steal my home and live in it?

lowing wrote:

What land would the ARABS allow the Jews to exist in peace in the ME??

Any land that isn't theirs (the Arabs).


http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= … n%26sa%3DN

http://www.btselem.org/English/Email_Up … 101_HS.jpg

Any other questions?

Yup I got a few questions.

Link the war Israel started to "carve out Israel"

Read the links in the post above, illegal immigration, Sharon and his cronies using death squads to murder the people and steal the land...

lowing wrote:

Is your home on the same land that JEWS once occupied before you??

No, it is on land that the Indians owned before me.  The JEWS never owned the land first, the Canaanites did...please read your history.

lowing wrote:

Well, since history has the Jews dating back in the ME as long as the Muslims, what land qualifies EXCLUSIVLY MUSLIM??

Here we go again, same question as above.  The Jews don't date back as far as the Muslims where the land is concerned.  The Jews were Nomads, roaming from land to land. 

lowing wrote:

Your links for Israel using women and children as shields is disputed.  Not muchof a shield if you are standing ABOVE someone shooting while they sit. You gotta do better than that pic. There are 10,000 ways that pic could be interpreted. Give me the story behind the pic.

The story?  The IDF bound that civilian and placed him in front of himself to use as a shield in a firefight.
Read the other links, you possibly couldn't have done so after replying to my post so quickly.  I think the BBC and Amnesty International are quite valid sources.

lowing wrote:

I can show you a pic of 6 marines struggling to raise a flag over Iwa Jima. The real story behindthe pic is a lot less flattering.

You are out of context, how does the raising of the flag equate to human shields?  Show me a picture of U.S. soldiers using Japanese civilians, bound and gagged, as human shields.  Once you do I will concede you have an argument.

I read your links, although some of them have agendas, I will acknowledge that attrocities are being commited on both sides. War is ugly. You have shown me that EVERYONE is guilty. There is no right or wrong to any of this, it is ALL wrong.

It is unfair to go back 10,000 years to show land ownership, unless there is land anywhere in the world that has not been fought over, won and lost in human history.

Same answer, please don't use events 5000 years ago to justify todays events.

The point I was trying to make wit hmy "Iwa Jima" example is this:...........pictures don't tell the whole story. That picture tells a story that is far from reality. That was my point.

bottom line : I will concede Israel is not innocent.Neither is Palistine. I mean you aretryingto post an argument that the latest war started because Israel WASN'T SUPPOSED TO FIGHT TO GET THEIR SOLDIERS BACK,THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO NEGOTIATE, HOW DARE ISRAEL...You need to concede that violence in the ME will not stop with the elimination of Israel. It will simply re-direct to someone else.

lowing wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

lowing wrote:

Then acknowledge it. and stop defending it, or dismissing it as irrelevent.

I won't.  That's a myth as I said.  You don't have a proof of that happening.  Don't paste a drawing, I want pictures.

http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=5 … mp;start=1


http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBurea … 1103b.html


http://www.pmw.org.il/murder.htm be sure to examine this one in detail.gooooooood stufffffff.


http://www.cornellsun.com/node/19607

Very reliable sources indeed.

About 75% of Palestinians want the  radical Hamas movement which won an upset victory over the Fateh in PLC elections in January to recognize Israel and negotiate peace.

lowing wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

lowing wrote:

http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=5 … mp;start=1


http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBurea … 1103b.html


http://www.pmw.org.il/murder.htm be sure to examine this one in detail.gooooooood stufffffff.


http://www.cornellsun.com/node/19607

Very reliable sources indeed.

You post this and accuse me of not listening to other viewpoints???? ooooooooooooooooooook.

Lowing, the fact I consider your sources biased, doesn't mean I don't listen to your viewpoints.

lowing wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

About 75% of Palestinians want the  radical Hamas movement which won an upset victory over the Fateh in PLC elections in January to recognize Israel and negotiate peace.

Sounds good, but the very first paragraph OF YOUR SOURCE pays that land belonged to the Jews and was conquered by Rome....So. What gives?

Read the entire article, it is not biased and I never said that Jews don't belong there.  I'm against zionists.

lowing wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

lowing wrote:

Sounds good, but the very first paragraph OF YOUR SOURCE pays that land belonged to the Jews and was conquered by Rome....So. What gives?

Read the entire article, it is not biased and I never said that Jews don't belong there.  I'm against zionists.

Wait a sec............the BIG argument here is whose land it is, who is there legally or illegally. NOw you say the Jews have every right to be there??

I say both of them have rights to be there.  What I condemn is Israel criminal acts.  I don't want Israel gone.

lowing wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

lowing wrote:

Wait a sec............the BIG argument here is whose land it is, who is there legally or illegally. NOw you say the Jews have every right to be there??

I say both of them have rights to be there.  What I condemn is Israel criminal acts.  I don't want Israel gone.

So your postion is, if Israel would just leave THEM alone and stop being "AGRESSIVE", then all would live in peace and the Arabs would NOT try and destroy Israel, huh!! I think you have wayyyyyyyy too much faith. Especially since there is NO EVENT IN HISTORY, that would back up your theory.

I don't want history to repeat.  Israel must stop invading Palestine territory and killing innocent people and Palestinians extremists must accept Israel as well.  If history repeats we know how it ends, we need changes.

lowing wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

lowing wrote:

So your postion is, if Israel would just leave THEM alone and stop being "AGRESSIVE", then all would live in peace and the Arabs would NOT try and destroy Israel, huh!! I think you have wayyyyyyyy too much faith. Especially since there is NO EVENT IN HISTORY, that would back up your theory.

I don't want history to repeat.  Israel must stop invading Palestine territory and killing innocent people and Palestinians extremists must accept Israel as well.  If history repeats we know how it ends, we need changes.

Well shit, I will agree to that. But there is simply no way the Arabs will ever stop attacking Israel. The fact that Isarel withdrew from the west bank and Gaza and still came under attacks proves this. The Arab world will accept no other solution than the total destruction of Israel. They have said as much.

Palestinians want to recognize Israel as you could see in the link I provided.  It's a matter of will from both sides to stop this war.  Don't forget that Israel isn't doing much for peace allowing settlers in West Bank.