|BFC|Icenflame
Member
+11|6727|Cape Town - South Africa
I did use imperialism in a broad sense. yet America has ousted two governments and is still occupying the countries.. and has been influencing the worlds policies since WWII. Is this not a form of Imperialism?



A contemporary debate surrounds the United States, American Presidency, and whether the power they exert upon much of the world and its policy amounts to imperialism — the U.S. is therefore sometimes referred to as the "American Empire."

This is because, with the collapse of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War, the United States is now the world's dominant economic and military power. Furthermore, the U.S. has, many times over the past century, used both military intervention and economic or political influence to shape other countries, especially those within the Western Hemisphere but occasionally also those in the Eastern Hemisphere. Opinions vary greatly within the U.S.: some regard the active use of military force abroad as a part of the nation's responsibility or national interest, while others argue for non-interventionism. There are also many
shades of opinion in between..

taken from : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperialism
arabeater
Do you have any idea how fooking busy I am?
+49|6931|Colorado Springs, CO

Kmarion wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

People always go on about Saddam killing Kurds, but if that were a reason for invasion why didn't the US do something about it at the time.
Here is a crazy idea. Why didn't yours ? Sit back and point why don't you.

Jusster wrote:

Iraq.......what a joke.  We have no idea why we went there at all (at least the public doesn't).
I was just about to say that.
Has there been a major attack on US soil since 9/11 ?
They are being fought in their backyards, not ours. Look at the recent foiled plot in the UK there has to be some degree of success.
I've spent almost 3 outta the past 4 years deployed to the desert fighting and I think its been worth it. No attacks in 5 years.
arabeater
Do you have any idea how fooking busy I am?
+49|6931|Colorado Springs, CO

Jusster wrote:

kr@cker wrote:

wiggle my way out of what?

Jusster wrote:

We only enter conflicts that we believe we have something to gain
I'm sorry but I took this to mean economically as most of the critics on here claim economic gain from Iraqi oil as the only reason we went in.


and why would you enter a conflict if you thought you had something to lose from it anyway?
My point was that if we entered into war with Iraq for the "Moral reasons",  then why not enter North Korea, China, and too many African countries to mention.  I don't believe we should enter any of them.  Let them handle there own affairs.  We have enough to deal with at home.

Well you could enter a conflict without looking for something to gain..........because its the right thing to do or you are threatened in some sort of way.  For instance,  when we were pulled into WWII after the attack on Pearl Harbor.
Why go into Africa or North Korea? North Korea poses no direct threat to the US. Our allies yes. Africa has absloutelty no foreign intrests to the US. Yes we go to war for our intrests. Would you rather fight some country like Rwanda and have 10000 casualties and gain nothing from it or go to war with North Korea who just invaded our ally Japan which is a major exportor to the US and suffer 10000 casualties? I know what I would pick. And this is coming from a US servicemember BTW!

Last edited by arabeater (2006-10-17 07:09:19)

Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6792|Texas - Bigger than France

arabeater wrote:

Jusster wrote:

kr@cker wrote:

wiggle my way out of what?

I'm sorry but I took this to mean economically as most of the critics on here claim economic gain from Iraqi oil as the only reason we went in.


and why would you enter a conflict if you thought you had something to lose from it anyway?
My point was that if we entered into war with Iraq for the "Moral reasons",  then why not enter North Korea, China, and too many African countries to mention.  I don't believe we should enter any of them.  Let them handle there own affairs.  We have enough to deal with at home.

Well you could enter a conflict without looking for something to gain..........because its the right thing to do or you are threatened in some sort of way.  For instance,  when we were pulled into WWII after the attack on Pearl Harbor.
Why go into Africa or North Korea? North Korea poses no direct threat to the US. Our allies yes. Africa has absloutelty no foreign intrests to the US. Yes we go to war for our intrests. Would you rather fight some country like Rwanda and have 10000 casualties and gain nothing from it or go to war with North Korea who just invaded our ally Japan which is a major exportor to the US and suffer 10000 casualties? I know what I would pick. And this is coming from a US servicemember BTW!
You answered your own question - "Our allies yes".
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6806

arabeater wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

People always go on about Saddam killing Kurds, but if that were a reason for invasion why didn't the US do something about it at the time.
Here is a crazy idea. Why didn't yours ? Sit back and point why don't you.

Jusster wrote:

Iraq.......what a joke.  We have no idea why we went there at all (at least the public doesn't).
I was just about to say that.
Has there been a major attack on US soil since 9/11 ?
They are being fought in their backyards, not ours. Look at the recent foiled plot in the UK there has to be some degree of success.
I've spent almost 3 outta the past 4 years deployed to the desert fighting and I think its been worth it. No attacks in 5 years.
Don't you realise that to kill Americans they can do that on their own soil now? No need for expensive plane tickets! The logic of some people on this forum. Do you not classify the 2700 odd fatalities in Iraq as real or actual Americans? Do you think you would have incurred such losses from terror in the USA over the past 3 years if not for the war in Iraq? Please... laughable just laughable.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-10-17 07:15:59)

arabeater
Do you have any idea how fooking busy I am?
+49|6931|Colorado Springs, CO
What we should be debating is why Europe isnt in Africa? Or are they too busy bashing the US!
arabeater
Do you have any idea how fooking busy I am?
+49|6931|Colorado Springs, CO

CameronPoe wrote:

arabeater wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

People always go on about Saddam killing Kurds, but if that were a reason for invasion why didn't the US do something about it at the time.
Here is a crazy idea. Why didn't yours ? Sit back and point why don't you.


I was just about to say that.
Has there been a major attack on US soil since 9/11 ?
They are being fought in their backyards, not ours. Look at the recent foiled plot in the UK there has to be some degree of success.
I've spent almost 3 outta the past 4 years deployed to the desert fighting and I think its been worth it. No attacks in 5 years.
Don't you realise that to kill Americans they can do that on their own soil now? No need for expensive plane tickets! The logic of some people on this forum. Do you not classify the 2700 odd fatalities in Iraq as real or actual Americans? Do you think you would have incurred such losses from terror in the USA over the past 3 years if not for the war in Iraq? Please... laughable just laughable
Ok then Cameron what would President Poe have us do? Let them bring the fight to US soil or take the fight to them and instead of the collateral damge being on the US side its on theirs?
kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6799|Southeastern USA

arabeater wrote:

What we should be debating is why Europe isnt in Africa? Or are they too busy bashing the US!
good point, when the first decade or so of letting the UN write nasty letters to african warlords and dictators doesn't do any good, what makes you think a second or third decade of doing the same will?
arabeater
Do you have any idea how fooking busy I am?
+49|6931|Colorado Springs, CO

kr@cker wrote:

arabeater wrote:

What we should be debating is why Europe isnt in Africa? Or are they too busy bashing the US!
good point, when the first decade or so of letting the UN write nasty letters to african warlords and dictators doesn't do any good, what makes you think a second or third decade of doing the same will?
Everybody expects the US to do everything. Not possible. If Europe feels so fucking sorry for Africa then go help them. If you guys spent all that energy you use bitching about the US and used it to help Africa out then they would be a fucking utopia.
CommandoRog
Member
+10|6934|USA
Since i have been on BF2s i have only heard America this,America that.
The shit is getting fucking old.
If you like us,then nice to meet ya.
If not,then go pump your neighbors dog and stop wasting peoples time.
spray_and_pray
Member
+52|6741|Perth. Western Australia

arabeater wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

arabeater wrote:


I've spent almost 3 outta the past 4 years deployed to the desert fighting and I think its been worth it. No attacks in 5 years.
Don't you realise that to kill Americans they can do that on their own soil now? No need for expensive plane tickets! The logic of some people on this forum. Do you not classify the 2700 odd fatalities in Iraq as real or actual Americans? Do you think you would have incurred such losses from terror in the USA over the past 3 years if not for the war in Iraq? Please... laughable just laughable
Ok then Cameron what would President Poe have us do? Let them bring the fight to US soil or take the fight to them and instead of the collateral damge being on the US side its on theirs?
Well if you didnt bomb the rest of the world no one would be attacking you in the first place. You think they blow themselves up for fun? Yeah right.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6806

arabeater wrote:

Ok then Cameron what would President Poe have us do? Let them bring the fight to US soil or take the fight to them and instead of the collateral damge being on the US side its on theirs?
How about investing all that money in transport security, border security, anti-terrorism policing, intelligence gathering, asset seizure and promoting understanding/cooperation? Create a 'Fortress America' if you will. If you seriously think Iraq has any impact on terrorism, other than to increase the number of terrorists, then you are severaly mistaken.

Would you like it if Iraq occupied Pennsylvania? Didn't think so. The idea of the US 'do-gooders' swannign around Iraq in their APCs is a big fat alarm bell to all and sundry across the Middle East to grab a gun and an explosive belt and catch the earliest bus to Baghdad.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-10-17 07:57:11)

arabeater
Do you have any idea how fooking busy I am?
+49|6931|Colorado Springs, CO

spray_and_pray wrote:

arabeater wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:


Don't you realise that to kill Americans they can do that on their own soil now? No need for expensive plane tickets! The logic of some people on this forum. Do you not classify the 2700 odd fatalities in Iraq as real or actual Americans? Do you think you would have incurred such losses from terror in the USA over the past 3 years if not for the war in Iraq? Please... laughable just laughable
Ok then Cameron what would President Poe have us do? Let them bring the fight to US soil or take the fight to them and instead of the collateral damge being on the US side its on theirs?
Well if you didnt bomb the rest of the world no one would be attacking you in the first place. You think they blow themselves up for fun? Yeah right.
Please explain the rest of the world that we blow up. To my knowledge we are currently only blowing up 2 countries ATT//. And yes I do think they rather enjoy strapping C4 to their chest and blowing theselves up so they can recieve those 40 or so virgins of theirs.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6806

arabeater wrote:

kr@cker wrote:

arabeater wrote:

What we should be debating is why Europe isnt in Africa? Or are they too busy bashing the US!
good point, when the first decade or so of letting the UN write nasty letters to african warlords and dictators doesn't do any good, what makes you think a second or third decade of doing the same will?
Everybody expects the US to do everything. Not possible. If Europe feels so fucking sorry for Africa then go help them. If you guys spent all that energy you use bitching about the US and used it to help Africa out then they would be a fucking utopia.
How about all us westerners butt out of developing nations affairs? Sound good? Provide unconditional financial aid if we're feeling generous but let that be the height of it. Nobody - not USA, not Europe, not Japan, not China - is a policeman for the world. Let the less developed nations shape their own future and let's not rape them financially through the international financial insitutions and systems that we created to reap maximum benefit out of them.
arabeater
Do you have any idea how fooking busy I am?
+49|6931|Colorado Springs, CO

CameronPoe wrote:

arabeater wrote:

kr@cker wrote:


good point, when the first decade or so of letting the UN write nasty letters to african warlords and dictators doesn't do any good, what makes you think a second or third decade of doing the same will?
Everybody expects the US to do everything. Not possible. If Europe feels so fucking sorry for Africa then go help them. If you guys spent all that energy you use bitching about the US and used it to help Africa out then they would be a fucking utopia.
How about all us westerners butt out of developing nations affairs? Sound good? Provide unconditional financial aid if we're feeling generous but let that be the height of it. Nobody - not USA, not Europe, not Japan, not China - is a policeman for the world. Let the less developed nations shape their own future and let's not rape them financially through the international financial insitutions and systems that we created to reap maximum benefit out of them.
Agreed. Man Law?
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7022|PNW

CameronPoe wrote:

I pick option c) the west stays the fuck out of the affairs of others bar giving them financial aid if/when required. No pre-emptive wars. If something does happen, respond in an appropriate, considered and measured manner.
Tell you what: the rest of the world stops blowing eachother up, and the US will have no excuse to stage invasion. And why the heck should the west help anyone monetarily if they don't get anything back for it?

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-10-17 07:58:15)

CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6806

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

I pick option c) the west stays the fuck out of the affairs of others bar giving them financial aid if/when required. No pre-emptive wars. If something does happen, respond in an appropriate, considered and measured manner.
Tell you what: the rest of the world stops blowing eachother up, and the US will have no excuse to stage invasion.
Why should we care if the rest of the world is blowing itself up? That's their prerogative - it's part of their 'growing up' process. We in the western world have, by and large, finished 'blowing each other up' - the rest will too at some point.
arabeater
Do you have any idea how fooking busy I am?
+49|6931|Colorado Springs, CO

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

I pick option c) the west stays the fuck out of the affairs of others bar giving them financial aid if/when required. No pre-emptive wars. If something does happen, respond in an appropriate, considered and measured manner.
Tell you what: the rest of the world stops blowing eachother up, and the US will have no excuse to stage invasion. And why the heck should the west help anyone monetarily if they don't get anything back for it?
Agreed. Excellent Point.
golgoj4
Member
+51|7024|North Hollywood
dont hate me because i only read the 1st page...but i gotta go to the dmv.

I grew up thinking that American imperialism was economic or strategic. Now, I dont even understand it. But its the government. I dont expect them to actually throw military power at the problem until the guy becomes hitler. For some reason, ppl dont seem to act unless its in their intrest.  Its too bad that 'freedom' only shows up when your country has some value other than doing the right thing. Yeah i know it sounds like a downer, but its not like the people are really in control off our government anymore...to busy with ipods and american idol.

-not intentionally bitter guy @ 8:05am
D34TH_D34L3R
Member
+48|7067|Belgium
You do all realize that this debate is pointless.. ?

People can't keep to the facts in debates like this, because eventually the debate gets turned into the European population against the US population..
And even IF people keep to the facts, that doesn't change a thing, because everyone will interpret the facts differently since everyone has a different view on the facts..

It's not like this is an accusation towards anyone.. Because we can't help it..
Nationalism is in everyone's blood, no one likes to hear someone calling his/her people/country bad things.. :-)
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6806

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

And why the heck should the west help anyone monetarily if they don't get anything back for it?
A) Compassion - you are human aren't you?
B) In many cases the west owes it to certain regions/countries for past colonialism and the raping of said countries resources.
C) The global system of finance and movement of capital inherently puts developing nations at a disadvantage to their richer neighbours in the west (who easily subject them to economic imperialism). Something which I find unfair and that I think needs to be redressed otherwise they will never achieve similar standards of living to us.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-10-17 08:12:49)

kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6799|Southeastern USA

arabeater wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

arabeater wrote:


Everybody expects the US to do everything. Not possible. If Europe feels so fucking sorry for Africa then go help them. If you guys spent all that energy you use bitching about the US and used it to help Africa out then they would be a fucking utopia.
How about all us westerners butt out of developing nations affairs? Sound good? Provide unconditional financial aid if we're feeling generous but let that be the height of it. Nobody - not USA, not Europe, not Japan, not China - is a policeman for the world. Let the less developed nations shape their own future and let's not rape them financially through the international financial insitutions and systems that we created to reap maximum benefit out of them.
Agreed. Man Law?
Man Law
arabeater
Do you have any idea how fooking busy I am?
+49|6931|Colorado Springs, CO

D34TH_D34L3R wrote:

You do all realize that this debate is pointless.. ?

People can't keep to the facts in debates like this, because eventually the debate gets turned into the European population against the US population..
And even IF people keep to the facts, that doesn't change a thing, because everyone will interpret the facts differently since everyone has a different view on the facts..

It's not like this is an accusation towards anyone.. Because we can't help it..
Nationalism is in everyone's blood, no one likes to hear someone calling his/her people/country bad things.. :-)
Very True. Can we still be friends?
arabeater
Do you have any idea how fooking busy I am?
+49|6931|Colorado Springs, CO

kr@cker wrote:

arabeater wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:


How about all us westerners butt out of developing nations affairs? Sound good? Provide unconditional financial aid if we're feeling generous but let that be the height of it. Nobody - not USA, not Europe, not Japan, not China - is a policeman for the world. Let the less developed nations shape their own future and let's not rape them financially through the international financial insitutions and systems that we created to reap maximum benefit out of them.
Agreed. Man Law?
Man Law
Only if Burt Reynolds and Triple H agree though. I have to run it by them first.
D34TH_D34L3R
Member
+48|7067|Belgium

arabeater wrote:

D34TH_D34L3R wrote:

You do all realize that this debate is pointless.. ?

People can't keep to the facts in debates like this, because eventually the debate gets turned into the European population against the US population..
And even IF people keep to the facts, that doesn't change a thing, because everyone will interpret the facts differently since everyone has a different view on the facts..

It's not like this is an accusation towards anyone.. Because we can't help it..
Nationalism is in everyone's blood, no one likes to hear someone calling his/her people/country bad things.. :-)
Very True. Can we still be friends?
Lol, sure we can! I still love you honey ;-)
Anyway, that's only my opinion on debates like this..
Of course I guess it's always good to adress an issue like this from time to time..

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