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2006-09-19 11:32:58
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6742|Northern California

sergeriver wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:

sergeriver wrote:


National Geographic Channel and Discovery for you asap.
Again, is there proof or a theory.  Judging by your citations, I see that you don't know.  Discovery channel and Nat'l Geographic channel are television producers and they play films created by people reporting things both true and not.  But if that's the proof you need, then by goly, continue to live in ignorance.
I believe what I know is a fact, and you should try.  I never said I don't believe in God, but I don't believe in Religion.  If you are questioning the Theory of Evolution then who is living in ignorance?
Then if you know the facts, tell me them.  Also, why would you believe the "theory" of evolution as being absolute if you're calling a theory still?  Last I checked, a theory is something that is not confirmed.  Also, have you found the missing link?  I've seen some ugly people but I don't think they qualify as the missing link.

Also, let me throw something a little complicated at you.  Read slow and let's see if this resonates a little (not that you're trying to be objective or teachable)...

Assume for a minute that God did what the scriptures said.  Assume for a minute that he did create this world in the seven creative periods as described in Genesis.  Let's also assume for a minute that in his infinite wisdom (infinite compared to our finite wisdom), he created this earth for our inhabitance.  This is not assuming we were the only inhabitants on the earth, but that we'd inhabit it when it was ready.  And being the God who created this earth and all things on them, could it not be possible that he's created other things, like let's say dinosaurs?  other men/creatures?  Who's to know, right?  SO since Genesis 1:1 in Hebrew actually says "in the begining, God assembled the heavens and the earth."  Many just follow the english word "create" and imagine him conjuring it like a big boom or something....or perhaps using a wand and a tall black hat.  But real people who contemplate these things understand that he took from matter and formed this earth.  Now, being an all knowing god, could it not be possible that he'd be able to see how his children evolved on earth over the several thousand or so years they'd live on it before moving on to bigger and better places, and maybe take some parts of the earth that have fossile fuel in it?  Maybe some parts with ores that would be used centuries later when "man discovered it" is useful for tools, cars, buildings, etc? 

But being the foolish, vain, unteachable people we are, why would we possibly ask God how things came to be?  Why would we want to know things we can't figure out ourselves?  I mean, if you read the bible and thought to yourself "Hmm..doesn't make sense, must be wrong," then you deserved the ignorance you created.  But as with the millions of souls who've come and gone on this earth who've actually spoken with God, and had an undeniable experience that could not have been of their making, who have learned that there is a God, and that he actually exists...well, those people are why there is good in the world.  Those are people who don't live in fear hoping the evening news won't put them in despair.  It is those people, like me, who have had daily "proofs" of their true and living relationship with God that just laugh at the vain attempts at those in this thread have to refute God and his established organizations on earth.  Your vanity would have you believe that because there's people obviously abusing established religion that it's all bad.  THis makes you as foolish as the racist that thinks because one black man killed a white man, that all black men are killers.  Or am I wrong?
2006-09-19 11:39:44
Fancy_Pollux
Connoisseur of Fine Wine
+1,306|6897

IRONCHEF wrote:

Then if you know the facts, tell me them.  Also, why would you believe the "theory" of evolution as being absolute if you're calling a theory still?  Last I checked, a theory is something that is not confirmed.  Also, have you found the missing link?  I've seen some ugly people but I don't think they qualify as the missing link.

Also, let me throw something a little complicated at you.  Read slow and let's see if this resonates a little (not that you're trying to be objective or teachable)...

Assume for a minute that God did what the scriptures said.  Assume for a minute that he did create this world in the seven creative periods as described in Genesis.  Let's also assume for a minute that in his infinite wisdom (infinite compared to our finite wisdom), he created this earth for our inhabitance.  This is not assuming we were the only inhabitants on the earth, but that we'd inhabit it when it was ready.  And being the God who created this earth and all things on them, could it not be possible that he's created other things, like let's say dinosaurs?  other men/creatures?  Who's to know, right?  SO since Genesis 1:1 in Hebrew actually says "in the begining, God assembled the heavens and the earth."  Many just follow the english word "create" and imagine him conjuring it like a big boom or something....or perhaps using a wand and a tall black hat.  But real people who contemplate these things understand that he took from matter and formed this earth.  Now, being an all knowing god, could it not be possible that he'd be able to see how his children evolved on earth over the several thousand or so years they'd live on it before moving on to bigger and better places, and maybe take some parts of the earth that have fossile fuel in it?  Maybe some parts with ores that would be used centuries later when "man discovered it" is useful for tools, cars, buildings, etc? 

But being the foolish, vain, unteachable people we are, why would we possibly ask God how things came to be?  Why would we want to know things we can't figure out ourselves?  I mean, if you read the bible and thought to yourself "Hmm..doesn't make sense, must be wrong," then you deserved the ignorance you created.  But as with the millions of souls who've come and gone on this earth who've actually spoken with God, and had an undeniable experience that could not have been of their making, who have learned that there is a God, and that he actually exists...well, those people are why there is good in the world.  Those are people who don't live in fear hoping the evening news won't put them in despair.  It is those people, like me, who have had daily "proofs" of their true and living relationship with God that just laugh at the vain attempts at those in this thread have to refute God and his established organizations on earth.  Your vanity would have you believe that because there's people obviously abusing established religion that it's all bad.  THis makes you as foolish as the racist that thinks because one black man killed a white man, that all black men are killers.  Or am I wrong?
My rebuttal:

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

The extent to which organized religion can brainwash such a large majority of the world into defying science, reasoning, and truth is truly shocking.
2006-09-19 11:47:29
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6742|Northern California

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:

Then if you know the facts, tell me them.  Also, why would you believe the "theory" of evolution as being absolute if you're calling a theory still?  Last I checked, a theory is something that is not confirmed.  Also, have you found the missing link?  I've seen some ugly people but I don't think they qualify as the missing link.

Also, let me throw something a little complicated at you.  Read slow and let's see if this resonates a little (not that you're trying to be objective or teachable)...

Assume for a minute that God did what the scriptures said.  Assume for a minute that he did create this world in the seven creative periods as described in Genesis.  Let's also assume for a minute that in his infinite wisdom (infinite compared to our finite wisdom), he created this earth for our inhabitance.  This is not assuming we were the only inhabitants on the earth, but that we'd inhabit it when it was ready.  And being the God who created this earth and all things on them, could it not be possible that he's created other things, like let's say dinosaurs?  other men/creatures?  Who's to know, right?  SO since Genesis 1:1 in Hebrew actually says "in the begining, God assembled the heavens and the earth."  Many just follow the english word "create" and imagine him conjuring it like a big boom or something....or perhaps using a wand and a tall black hat.  But real people who contemplate these things understand that he took from matter and formed this earth.  Now, being an all knowing god, could it not be possible that he'd be able to see how his children evolved on earth over the several thousand or so years they'd live on it before moving on to bigger and better places, and maybe take some parts of the earth that have fossile fuel in it?  Maybe some parts with ores that would be used centuries later when "man discovered it" is useful for tools, cars, buildings, etc? 

But being the foolish, vain, unteachable people we are, why would we possibly ask God how things came to be?  Why would we want to know things we can't figure out ourselves?  I mean, if you read the bible and thought to yourself "Hmm..doesn't make sense, must be wrong," then you deserved the ignorance you created.  But as with the millions of souls who've come and gone on this earth who've actually spoken with God, and had an undeniable experience that could not have been of their making, who have learned that there is a God, and that he actually exists...well, those people are why there is good in the world.  Those are people who don't live in fear hoping the evening news won't put them in despair.  It is those people, like me, who have had daily "proofs" of their true and living relationship with God that just laugh at the vain attempts at those in this thread have to refute God and his established organizations on earth.  Your vanity would have you believe that because there's people obviously abusing established religion that it's all bad.  THis makes you as foolish as the racist that thinks because one black man killed a white man, that all black men are killers.  Or am I wrong?
My rebuttal:

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

The extent to which organized religion can brainwash such a large majority of the world into defying science, reasoning, and truth is truly shocking.
Amazing!  you say so much without saying anything at all!   Well done!  Also, I've not once defied science if that's what you're ASSUMING.  But I don't expect you to own up to that poor assumption.
2006-09-19 11:51:12
Fancy_Pollux
Connoisseur of Fine Wine
+1,306|6897

IRONCHEF wrote:

Amazing!  you say so much without saying anything at all!   Well done!  Also, I've not once defied science if that's what you're ASSUMING.  But I don't expect you to own up to that poor assumption.
Yes you are. It is clear as day. You are ignoring scientific proof and logical reasoning, and instead using faith as a basis for your argument. I don't know how you can post the things you have and not see this. Could be it that you're brainwashed? I think so, and I'm sure everyone else sees it too.

Last edited by Fancy_Pollux (2006-09-19 11:53:52)

2006-09-19 12:03:52
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6742|Northern California

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:

Amazing!  you say so much without saying anything at all!   Well done!  Also, I've not once defied science if that's what you're ASSUMING.  But I don't expect you to own up to that poor assumption.
Yes you are. It is clear as day. You are ignoring scientific proof and logical reasoning, and instead using faith as a basis for your argument. I don't know how you can post the things you have and not see this. Could be it that you're brainwashed? I think so, and I'm sure everyone else sees it too.
Ok, first of all, I've not replaced science with faith.  THis is an example of your poor reading comprehension.  Further, I've not even discussed what I think of science, you're, again, assuming you know what you don't.  In reality, I support science and the goal of those seeking truths.  What I would add, and what many other seekers of truth would add, is that they see science as man's way of discovering how things came to be.  I've heard it said of well known scientists (John A Witdsoe, who was a friend and researcher with Albert Einstein) that as scientists learn more and more of the origins of this earth, the more they believe in God. 

In short, science and religion do not contradict each other.  Or better yet, truth discovered by science and religious truths do not contradict.  I'm not expecting  you do understand that, but it's true.

Last edited by IRONCHEF (2006-09-19 12:05:01)

2006-09-19 12:21:55
IG-Calibre
comhalta
+226|6993|Tír Eoghan, Tuaisceart Éireann
Yeah there is clearly a difference between hearing the voice of god & talking bushes and what not, and being a paranoid psychophrenic..

Last edited by IG-Calibre (2006-09-19 12:23:14)

2006-09-19 12:25:56
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6742|Northern California

IG-Calibre wrote:

Yeah there is clearly a difference between hearing the voice of god & talking bushes and what not, and being a paranoid psychophrenic..
True, I wouldn't want to be a psychophrenic....
2006-09-19 12:27:06
J Klaus
Member
+4|6681
What would the world be like w/o religon? Anarchy!  There would be no moral center. It would be normal for people to marry animals, gays and lesbians to marry. Rosie O'donnel would be the norm. The Godless Democrats would have you denouncing religon so their agenda of communism would be accepted. I have no wish to live in a world w/o religon. God is everywhere including church, You don't have to attend church to believe in God. Wishing there was no religon is condeming yourself to hell. I don't attend church but I fear and love Our Lord with all my being. I am prepared for the end. I will now be attacked by the godless so bring it on sinners.
2006-09-19 12:28:46
M1-Lightning
Jeepers Creepers
+136|6982|Peoria, Illinois
Religion was most likely created in order to establish a civilized society, intended to make people fear committing immoral acts when no one was looking. With a bit more thought, I'm sure there's more to it. With the technology our police have today to stop or catch criminals, religion is irrelevent. God isn't watching you, but Big Brother is.

We have learned that we can live in a civilized society with many of the acts that man once considered immoral. Religion has proved though war, death, torture, destruction etc. to be the wrong approach to establishing that goal. Education, liberty, and entetainment along with essential laws in protecting those is the key, not religion. An educated and happy society with minimal laws is a civilized one.

I don't believe in any religion, but I'll never rule out the possibility of an existing god. Therefore I am an agnostic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic

Last edited by M1-Lightning (2006-09-19 12:32:06)

2006-09-19 12:33:01
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6742|Northern California

M1-Lightning wrote:

Religion was most likely created in order to establish a civilized society, intended to make people fear committing immoral acts when no was looking. With a bit more thought, I'm sure there's more to it. With the technology our police have today to stop or catch criminals, religion is irrelevent. God isn't watching you, but Big Brother is.
hehe, you are an example of one with textbook paranoia.  I love that opening line  "Religion was most likely created in order to..."   Based on what?  Your limited understanding of something that has as long of a history as....the wheel?
2006-09-19 12:34:59
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|6987|Salt Lake City

J Klaus wrote:

What would the world be like w/o religon? Anarchy!  There would be no moral center. It would be normal for people to marry animals, gays and lesbians to marry. Rosie O'donnel would be the norm. The Godless Democrats would have you denouncing religon so their agenda of communism would be accepted. I have no wish to live in a world w/o religon. God is everywhere including church, You don't have to attend church to believe in God. Wishing there was no religon is condeming yourself to hell. I don't attend church but I fear and love Our Lord with all my being. I am prepared for the end. I will now be attacked by the godless so bring it on sinners.
I seriously hope your post was supposed to have a [/sarcasm] tag.
2006-09-19 12:39:11
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6742|Northern California

J Klaus wrote:

What would the world be like w/o religon? Anarchy!  There would be no moral center. It would be normal for people to marry animals, gays and lesbians to marry. Rosie O'donnel would be the norm. The Godless Democrats would have you denouncing religon so their agenda of communism would be accepted. I have no wish to live in a world w/o religon. God is everywhere including church, You don't have to attend church to believe in God. Wishing there was no religon is condeming yourself to hell. I don't attend church but I fear and love Our Lord with all my being. I am prepared for the end. I will now be attacked by the godless so bring it on sinners.
And this is the example of what you get when you pervert religion with neoconservative ideology!  Did you go to Jesus Camp?  I love how you backwards "christians" base ALL of your violent tendancies on the example of Christ chasing money changers out of the temple with a handful of cords!  If Jesus were here today, he'd live in Berkeley, CA with other hippies.  He would NEVER support a war against Muslims, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, or any nation.  Reread the sermon on the mount if you have lost your faith.

I'm no democrat, but last time I reviewed Thinkprogress.com crooksandliars.com and some other liberal sites, I didn't see them supporting communism or a world without god.  In fact, I saw them defending the constitution...something you and your buddies Sean, Rush, Anne, and Michelle don't fathom.


Next time you "witness" and confess your love for Our Lord with all your being, try not to be the posterchild for the "christian" the world is coming to know.  Also, don't "witness" here as you are only casting your pearls before swine.
2006-09-19 13:16:07
M1-Lightning
Jeepers Creepers
+136|6982|Peoria, Illinois

IRONCHEF wrote:

hehe, you are an example of one with textbook paranoia.  I love that opening line  "Religion was most likely created in order to..."   Based on what?  Your limited understanding of something that has as long of a history as....the wheel?
I've read the bible. It's as ambigious as Nostradamus writings. Nothing in that book proves any god exists, rather only the existence of a belief in a god. In fact, nothing in that book can be proven. The ark of the covenent, ten commandments, christ's tomb, noah's ark... all fairy tales unless you can show me evidence. The line "Don't believe what you hear and only half of what you see" comes to mind. Some understanding of science and a little trickery of magic and you can convince the dumbest people in god.
2006-09-19 13:27:48
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6742|Northern California

M1-Lightning wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:

hehe, you are an example of one with textbook paranoia.  I love that opening line  "Religion was most likely created in order to..."   Based on what?  Your limited understanding of something that has as long of a history as....the wheel?
I've read the bible. It's as ambigious as Nostradamus writings. Nothing in that book proves any god exists, rather only the existence of a belief in a god. In fact, nothing in that book can be proven. The ark of the covenent, ten commandments, christ's tomb, noah's ark... all fairy tales unless you can show me evidence. The line "Don't believe what you hear and only half of what you see" comes to mind. Some understanding of science and a little trickery of magic and you can convince the dumbest people in god.
lol!  based on what you think of the bible, shows the reason for which you read it.  If you want to learn to repair cars, you read car manuals.  If you want to learn God's dealings with man and read the testimonies of prophets regarding God, then you read scriptures.  And since your logic is so simple, I'll give you a simple question to refute your thoughts...can you prove the Ark of the Covenant didn't exist?  Can you prove Noah wasn't really on a ship for a little over a year as the earth was flooded?  Can you prove that Christ did not actually live after he was dead?  No, you can't.  And yes, there are writings both Jewish (massada scrolls) and secular that talk about the dead coming from their graves when Christ was to have resurrected.  There are written testimonies of people seeing and touching Christ.  Just because you don't believe it doesn't mean it's not true.  Damn I'm sick of you retards trying to mount an argument equipped only with google and wikipedia searches.  Yeah, I can sit on a toilet with a newspaper and make intelligent conversations at parties too..but it doesn't mean I know things for myself!

Spiritual things can be discerned only with spiritual eyes.  This is why it's laughable that people think they need to prove biblical things scientifically.  The whole purpose is to prove it with a much greater sense than touch, feel, sight, and sound.  What is the point of seeing something if you'll forget?  Exactly.  But with spiritual things, you are seeing it on a much more memorable scale that will cause you to never forget.  I've seen too many proofs that are too sacred to share in a public game forum that no amount of scientific heresay or brainwashing could erase.  And guess what, I've learned them of myself despite pollux's bizarre notion that I'm brainwashed by some preacher.
2006-09-19 13:30:07
cheshiremoe
Evil Geniuses for a sparsely populated tomorrow
+50|6960

AAFCptKabbom wrote:

Can't agree with you and actually your post is pretty damned insulting towards the majority of the people in the world {those who have faith}.  I would side with you on the fact that the so called "Leaders" in the past used religion as a call to war or used their religion to rally their troops or to improve moral - but your blanket view is just factually wrong.  Obviously you don't practice any faith and you believe in creationism - that's fine and I respect that but please don't blame religion for the Ills of humanity - hold the person accountable...
He is not blaming religion, just religous leaders that try and dictate what you do.  A preist/(Holy person tiltle inserted here) gets to much sway over what people think in there flock.  People need to find god them selves, not let someone else tell you what god is or what is wright and wrong.  It is too easy for someone to be be brain washed into thinking that he/she should kill all the americans because Aladin Benladin says god told him "teh Americans are infadells".  Organized Religious groups try and force other people to belive/teach or take part in there view of the world and some people use religion get otheres to kill people.  Don't stop beliving in god if you do, just don't hang on every word the Pope says.  The Dalai Lama is spiratual leader and he gives guidence, but he does not tell people what to do. 

I don't think that removing all religious organization will mean the end of all the worlds problemes/violence, but some of it yes.
2006-09-19 13:33:39
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6832|SE London

IRONCHEF wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:


Again, is there proof or a theory.  Judging by your citations, I see that you don't know.  Discovery channel and Nat'l Geographic channel are television producers and they play films created by people reporting things both true and not.  But if that's the proof you need, then by goly, continue to live in ignorance.
I believe what I know is a fact, and you should try.  I never said I don't believe in God, but I don't believe in Religion.  If you are questioning the Theory of Evolution then who is living in ignorance?
Then if you know the facts, tell me them.  Also, why would you believe the "theory" of evolution as being absolute if you're calling a theory still?  Last I checked, a theory is something that is not confirmed.  Also, have you found the missing link?  I've seen some ugly people but I don't think they qualify as the missing link.
They have found many of the missing links. There is no one missing link. Several species have been found that fit in around the missing stages such as Pierolapithecus catalaunicus. Missing link is just another term for a transitional fossil. Many of these have been found. The missing links are running out.

Homo erectus is as far back as human evolution can be traced without any missing stages. That's 1.7 million years. Homo eretus is not Homo sapiens and it has been proved that they evolved into them, they also evolved, down another evolutionary branch, into Homo neanderthalensis (Neanderthals) - another human species that is now extinct (it is thought they died out during the last ice age, new evidence indicates the last survivors lived in Gibraltar). Other species of human and more recent micro evolution, prove that evolution occurs, even if there are steps missing in our understanding of the whole timeline of human history.

The theoretical side of evolution is how life began, the leap from chemical evolution to biological evolution. Although now it has been proved that this can happen, given the right conditions, scientists have created simple life forms out of chemicals. The Miller Urey experiments and Juan Oro's experiments show that many of the building blocks for life could quite easily have been available all that would be required for life to be created is contact with certain other organic compounds which many believe could have arrived on earth on a meteorite. The Murchison meteorite found in Australia did contain amino acids, that could have combined with other amino acids here to form RNA and later DNA - life. This is the theoretical side of the theory of evolution, the rest is quite solidly rooted in fact.

IRONCHEF wrote:

In short, science and religion do not contradict each other.  Or better yet, truth discovered by science and religious truths do not contradict.  I'm not expecting  you do understand that, but it's true.
Science and religion DO contrdict each other. I am not saying science proves there is no god, although certain theories like Hawkings no boundary proposal do eliminate the need for a creator. If you take the bible literally loads of stuff doesn't make any sense.

M1-Lightning wrote:

Religion was most likely created in order to establish a civilized society, intended to make people fear committing immoral acts when no one was looking. With a bit more thought, I'm sure there's more to it. With the technology our police have today to stop or catch criminals, religion is irrelevent. God isn't watching you, but Big Brother is.
I agree. Religion used to be a way of explaining things we couldn't explain, which we now can, and of creating moral codes for people to live by with some sort of reward or punishment if you lived by (or failled to live by) those moral guidelines. Social and scientific evolution have rendered organised religion meaningless.

You don't sound agnostic I have to say, never ruling out the possibility of some form of god isn't quite the same as believing in a god. I don't rule out the possibility of there being some sort of higher power, I am very dubious that there is and certain that it would not take a personal form like the christian god - I don't call myself agnostic, because I don't think there is any higher power, although there could be possibly.

J Klaus wrote:

What would the world be like w/o religon? Anarchy!  There would be no moral center. It would be normal for people to marry animals, gays and lesbians to marry. Rosie O'donnel would be the norm. The Godless Democrats would have you denouncing religon so their agenda of communism would be accepted.
Why would there be anarchy in a world without religion? Morals have little to do with religion, nothing to do with religion these days. There are plenty of non religious reasons for homosexuality being wrong, the purpose of life is to procreate, to pass on genetic code, so it's an evolutionary dead end. Having said that I have nothing against anyone who's gay, so long as they don't do loads of gay stuff in front of me - I don't like to see two blokes kissing, it's not nice - two girls kissing, well that's very different. I am all in favour of civil unions for gay people giving them all the rights of marriage but I don't think it should be called marriage, because that's not what it is. People marrying animals is even more wrong by the same logic, you can't pro-create with an animal - it's an evolutionary dead end.

J Klaus wrote:

I have no wish to live in a world w/o religon. God is everywhere including church, You don't have to attend church to believe in God.
This thread is not about religion. It is about religious organisations, people influencing other people in a devine name. You say god is everywhere and that you don't have to attend church to believe in god, I say get rid of the churches and still believe in god - but don't have the organisation.

J Klaus wrote:

Wishing there was no religon is condeming yourself to hell. I don't attend church but I fear and love Our Lord with all my being. I am prepared for the end. I will now be attacked by the godless so bring it on sinners.
lol

That's a chance I'm prepared to take.
2006-09-19 13:40:47
M1-Lightning
Jeepers Creepers
+136|6982|Peoria, Illinois

IRONCHEF wrote:

lol!  based on what you think of the bible, shows the reason for which you read it.  If you want to learn to repair cars, you read car manuals.  If you want to learn God's dealings with man and read the testimonies of prophets regarding God, then you read scriptures.  And since your logic is so simple, I'll give you a simple question to refute your thoughts...can you prove the Ark of the Covenant didn't exist?  Can you prove Noah wasn't really on a ship for a little over a year as the earth was flooded?  Can you prove that Christ did not actually live after he was dead?  No, you can't.  And yes, there are writings both Jewish (massada scrolls) and secular that talk about the dead coming from their graves when Christ was to have resurrected.  There are written testimonies of people seeing and touching Christ.  Just because you don't believe it doesn't mean it's not true.  Damn I'm sick of you retards trying to mount an argument equipped only with google and wikipedia searches.  Yeah, I can sit on a toilet with a newspaper and make intelligent conversations at parties too..but it doesn't mean I know things for myself!

Spiritual things can be discerned only with spiritual eyes.  This is why it's laughable that people think they need to prove biblical things scientifically.  The whole purpose is to prove it with a much greater sense than touch, feel, sight, and sound.  What is the point of seeing something if you'll forget?  Exactly.  But with spiritual things, you are seeing it on a much more memorable scale that will cause you to never forget.  I've seen too many proofs that are too sacred to share in a public game forum that no amount of scientific heresay or brainwashing could erase.  And guess what, I've learned them of myself despite pollux's bizarre notion that I'm brainwashed by some preacher.
I guess you missed the part where I said I was agnostic. I never said any of it wasn't true. It can't be proven or disproven. Religion IS a belief. You believe something that can't and probably never will be proven. If you believe everything you hear, that makes you the fool. I'll remain skeptical until some known facts give me a better opinion.
2006-09-19 13:49:37
M1-Lightning
Jeepers Creepers
+136|6982|Peoria, Illinois

Bertster7 wrote:

I don't call myself agnostic, because I don't think there is any higher power, although there could be possibly.
That makes you an athiest. I'm not an athiest. I don't have a belief that there is no god. How can I and why should I? There's no way to prove god doesn't exist.

Yes, the possibilities are there for god to exist or not exist...I do believe that much.
2006-09-19 13:51:55
IG-Calibre
comhalta
+226|6993|Tír Eoghan, Tuaisceart Éireann

J Klaus wrote:

What would the world be like w/o religon? Anarchy!  There would be no moral center. It would be normal for people to marry animals, gays and lesbians to marry. Rosie O'donnel would be the norm. The Godless Democrats would have you denouncing religon so their agenda of communism would be accepted. I have no wish to live in a world w/o religon. God is everywhere including church, You don't have to attend church to believe in God. Wishing there was no religon is condeming yourself to hell. I don't attend church but I fear and love Our Lord with all my being. I am prepared for the end. I will now be attacked by the godless so bring it on sinners.
I refute your claim sir that there would be no Morality in society without religion, pfffffffffffffft and piddle..
2006-09-19 13:54:01
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6742|Northern California
Proving God Exists 101:

1) If, and only If you have the desire to truly know if he exists, continue to step 2
2) Contemplate, Ponder, Meditate on the "possibility" that he Exists.
3) Clear your mind of everything, including what you grew up learning in church or in school..get clear of thoughts and opinions focusing only on your desire to validate the possibility that he exists..or that he doesn't.
4) Find a quiet location, private, dark, free from phones, people, or other distractions
5) Say, "God, do your really exist?"
6) Now just wait, as if you've asked someone a question.  And pay attention to what you feel, the things you hear, and take notice of the things you feel and hear that aren't what you'd normally feel or hear.
7) Come back here and tell me what you found out.

This is a simple process that many just don't do, yet they say He doesn't exist or that he's the perception of a frenzied mind in need of a crutch to get over their life's problems.  Agnostics who do this will likewise receive an answer to their faithful question. 

After you have done this once or twice, take the next step and ask what you should do next?  Guess what?  This is what is called organized religion.  Just because some organized religions tell you what to believe doesn't mean they all do.  Mine is probably foremost among religions I've heard of that tell you to find out for yourself if what they're saying is true, or not before you become one of them. 

"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God who giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not, and it shall be given him."  (james 1:5)  This is not an idle promise.  It is the way to prove any and ALL religious ideas as being true or false.  It is the way to decide who to vote for, if you should have more kids, if you should buy a house, if you want to make enemies into friends, if you want happiness, if you want to know things...
2006-09-19 13:55:13
J Klaus
Member
+4|6681
You are a contradiction to yourself. In your posts you defend religon then attack me for blindly believing in God. A true believer in God and Christ does not have to be taught their beliefs. they just believe. I will witness where I like and pay no heed to your hatred of Christians.. As for politics, if you side with the progressive movement you must be a commie. In a country based on capitalism the idea of taking from the rich to elevate the lazy and support oppressive governments is rooted in communism. The "neo conservatives" (us 2% who pay 90% of taxes) are those who support this nation through hard work and sacrafice. The "progressives" would take it from us to lift the useless to a comfortable level. There is a place for progressives in countries like France, Canada and Germany. Take a look at their economy. Is that the future you want for America. Its strikes me funny that citizens from these progressive nations not only want to live in America but look to America to bail them out. I live through the Constitution, not hide behind it to burn our flag and accuse our President of war crimes etc.... The Democrats have no agenda other than to raise taxes for more government intrusion, legislate from the left-wing bench, bash Conservatives and regain power. They run on a "Hate Bush" platform perpetrated by the left-wing media. Michael Moore and George Soros. What would they do with that power? Bow like bitches to the UN (Useless Nations). Your attack on me is weak.
2006-09-19 14:09:17
cheshiremoe
Evil Geniuses for a sparsely populated tomorrow
+50|6960

IRONCHEF wrote:

...And since your logic is so simple, I'll give you a simple question to refute your thoughts...can you prove the Ark of the Covenant didn't exist?  Can you prove Noah wasn't really on a ship for a little over a year as the earth was flooded?  Can you prove that Christ did not actually live after he was dead?  No, you can't...
Your argument here is completely flawed.  You can't prove anything by not being able to prove the opposite.
You sir have committed the "Burden of Proof fallacy"
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacie … proof.html I will be referencing this site more in future forum arguments to debunk silly logical distractions.

The whole the bible is gods word and so god exists is Begging the Question fallacy or circular evidence
Bill: "God must exist."
Jill: "How do you know."
Bill: "Because the Bible says so."
Jill: "Why should I believe the Bible?"
Bill: "Because the Bible was written by God."
besides this is not about weather god exists or not, it is about organizations that control others.  Bringing up the debate about gods existence is the Red Herring to distract us from the original topic.  Most of the arguments in these forums have someone committing an argumentative fallacy(usually a Personal Attack).  I want to see more of you people using valid arguments.
Stay on topic people.
2006-09-19 14:14:11
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6742|Northern California

J Klaus wrote:

You are a contradiction to yourself. In your posts you defend religon then attack me for blindly believing in God. A true believer in God and Christ does not have to be taught their beliefs. they just believe. I will witness where I like and pay no heed to your hatred of Christians.. As for politics, if you side with the progressive movement you must be a commie. In a country based on capitalism the idea of taking from the rich to elevate the lazy and support oppressive governments is rooted in communism. The "neo conservatives" (us 2% who pay 90% of taxes) are those who support this nation through hard work and sacrafice. The "progressives" would take it from us to lift the useless to a comfortable level. There is a place for progressives in countries like France, Canada and Germany. Take a look at their economy. Is that the future you want for America. Its strikes me funny that citizens from these progressive nations not only want to live in America but look to America to bail them out. I live through the Constitution, not hide behind it to burn our flag and accuse our President of war crimes etc.... The Democrats have no agenda other than to raise taxes for more government intrusion, legislate from the left-wing bench, bash Conservatives and regain power. They run on a "Hate Bush" platform perpetrated by the left-wing media. Michael Moore and George Soros. What would they do with that power? Bow like bitches to the UN (Useless Nations). Your attack on me is weak.
1) I attacked you because of your republican talking points that sounded like you plagiarized them from Ken Mehlmen himself!  Truly original!

2) If a true believer of God and Christ does not have to be taught their beliefs, then why did Jesus call apostles and teach them and multitudes his principles? 

3) Do you believe Christ would support Bush and Karl Rove?  Would he stay the course in Iraq?  Would he attack Iran?

4) This country is not based on capitalism, it's based on basic civil rights as found in the bill of rights.  It is based on Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.  Capitalism/Greed is the effect such freedom has had on the people of this continent and such capitalism has been both a blessing and curse. 

5) I am currently not affiliated with nor do I sympathize with the ideals of a communist government.  Though I am not a democrat, those democrats i know likewise do not support said ideals.  SO no, you are wrong again (how odd?!?)

6) I live through the Constitution, not hide behind it to burn our flag and accuse our President of war crimes etc....   hehe, and "I'm" the one that is contradicting?  lol  Have you even read it?  Ever?  Name something in Iraq that Bush has done that has been legal.  ANYTHING.  I'm waiting.

7) Dems are for raising taxes?  that's their agenda?  I think we are in need of a tax increase to start paying off our war debt, but other than that, i haven't seen a single dem here in California raising taxes.  Maybe you can substantiate your talking point for us all and show us you're not really full of shit!

8) Left wing media....like ABC running Path to 9/11?  Like FOX "news"?  If that's left wing media, what do you consider...not left?

One last parting blow...Since you are against criticizing the president, and yet you live through the constitution...then how do you feel about Bush getting his ass handed to him by both dems and republicans after he tried to get article 3 of the geneva convention defined in a way that will allow him to torture people who should have the right to not be tortured?  How do you feel about being abducted, hooded, beaten, and then held in shackles in a pitch black room for 6 months...and then being found to be innocent because some liberal group like Amnesty International or ACLU got you freed?  Maybe you should be airdropped into baghdad....

Last edited by IRONCHEF (2006-09-19 14:21:03)

2006-09-19 14:20:04
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6742|Northern California

cheshiremoe wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:

...And since your logic is so simple, I'll give you a simple question to refute your thoughts...can you prove the Ark of the Covenant didn't exist?  Can you prove Noah wasn't really on a ship for a little over a year as the earth was flooded?  Can you prove that Christ did not actually live after he was dead?  No, you can't...
Your argument here is completely flawed.  You can't prove anything by not being able to prove the opposite.
You sir have committed the "Burden of Proof fallacy"
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacie … proof.html I will be referencing this site more in future forum arguments to debunk silly logical distractions.

The whole the bible is gods word and so god exists is Begging the Question fallacy or circular evidence
Bill: "God must exist."
Jill: "How do you know."
Bill: "Because the Bible says so."
Jill: "Why should I believe the Bible?"
Bill: "Because the Bible was written by God."
besides this is not about weather god exists or not, it is about organizations that control others.  Bringing up the debate about gods existence is the Red Herring to distract us from the original topic.  Most of the arguments in these forums have someone committing an argumentative fallacy(usually a Personal Attack).  I want to see more of you people using valid arguments.
Stay on topic people.
People have clearly commented and made their points supporting or condemning organized religions.  I am not utilizing said red herring to distract from the topic, I've instead supported the existence of God and basic belief structures that require organized religion to exist to sustain such existence of God.

Also, the burden of proof is on nobody so I wasn't trying to prove the bible was true with my reversed questions.  I was making the point that there is no proof against biblical occurences therefore keeping the possibilities open.  Then I proceeded to explain how to gain proof of such things.
2006-09-19 14:28:21
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6832|SE London

M1-Lightning wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

I don't call myself agnostic, because I don't think there is any higher power, although there could be possibly.
That makes you an athiest. I'm not an athiest. I don't have a belief that there is no god. How can I and why should I? There's no way to prove god doesn't exist.

Yes, the possibilities are there for god to exist or not exist...I do believe that much.
I know I'm an atheist. Although I believe it is possible for there to be some sort of god, very much as a non personal entity though, I just think it's unlikely. That is basically the same statement that you made earlier, yet you claim it classifies me as an atheist and you as an agnostic.

An agnostic actually believes in some higher power, not just in the possibility of it, as you stated earlier. I'm not saying you're not agnostic, just that it doesn't sound like you're agnostic from your post, which I did say.

That was based on your earlier statement:

M1-Lightning wrote:

I don't believe in any religion, but I'll never rule out the possibility of an existing god. Therefore I am an agnostic
Never ruling out the possibility is different to believing. From that sentence it doesn't sound like you are agnostic. That doesn't mean you're not, just that that statement did not make it sound like you are.

Topic closed

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