BF2S Forums Is the US car industry doomed?

Not doomed but a little shaky at the moment. The problem with yank cars is that there built for americans and specifically have big engines with ok power, us europeans actually have to pay for petrol so it makes US cars too expensive to run. If we buy a 5 litre car we want it to shift!.The exception is the sports cars because people expect shitty mpg, so engine size/economy is not the first consideration and they will still sell. And what a choice you guys have given us, as well as the vettes, vipers and stangs we now have(hopefully) the new camaro and challenger(god that car looks the shit). Competition is also going to be good, in the long run, for the US car industry and america as a whole. Japs can get 200bhp per litre(mitsi fq400) out of a PRODUCTION engine and still pass emission tests, so if the yank designers get there arses in gear they can keep the muscle car performance but still make a viable car for the european market. Not saying the mpg on a evo is good but it aint bad for a car that does 0-60 in 3.5secs! Also people say US cars are poor build quality but thats not entirely true and at the end of the day if the cars good enough people will overlook this (ferrari). IMO the industry will only change when prices at the pumps go up, but for the moment this aint gonna happen so rest easy.

Bertster7 wrote:

The car industry in the US has been steadily losing lots of money. General Motors and Ford are in no immediate danger of shutting down, but long term they are in serious trouble. GM and Ford stocks have both reached junk levels (GM reaching BB, the 2nd highest junk level - Ford reaching BB+, the highest junk level).

One of the most serious problems US car manufacturers face is that it is very difficult for them to sell their cars elsewhere around the world. Most US built cars do not reach emissions standards in other countries that would be ideal target markets. Arnie has been in trouble with the US car industry because of the introduction of legislation that will bring emissions standards in California up to the same levels as China currently has gradually over 11 years. Japan and Europe as well as many other countries have higher emissions standards than China. This inabilty to export the majority of cars produced in the US has hit the manufacturers hard, as have falling sales in the US.

Do these giants of the automobile industry have a future?

That info on emmissions being more lax in california compaired to europe or china is a bit off.  There are a lot of cars that aren't imported from europe and japan because they don't meat california emmisions standards.  The Nissan Skyline isn't imported because of this, and almost no diesels are imported because they can't even get close to california emmision standards unless it's a full size truck.  And the idea that china has stricter emmisions standards seems really off, I watched a documentary about 3 months ago on china, and it was saying something that China uses the same emmision standards as europe, from 15 years ago.

But I do get where your coming from, american cars don't meat europian standards because they emmit some substances that europe deems harmful, and california has the same problem with some foreign cars, usually due to sulphur emmisions and anything deemed to be even remotely harmful to human health, where as europian standards tend to be more focused on global health.

Bertster7 wrote:

Horseman 77 wrote:

I have been under the impression that for some time now the Foreign and US manufacturers have been sort of morphing into one. Many of the subcontractors are local and foreign to. Am I not correct? I really have no first hand knowledge. Maybe the worlds smartest boy will cut and paste a few links on the subject for us. As only a true boy genius can.

                Ciao Belle ! put put put put put put put put put put put put

I know that US companies own many foreign companies, but their profits are taken into account within the Ford/GM umbrella. Ford for example own Jaguar.

They haven't been morphing into them, just buying them.

If anything, Jaguar is morphing into Ford. What is it, the X-type, their lower model is basically a remodelled Taurus.

For a long time, only American cars were readily available in America, so that's just what people bought. Most old farts who think its their civil duty to support American industries, mongaloids, people looking for industrial vehicles (for awhile anyways), and people who don't know how to shop around for the best deal will probably keep the American car industry afloat--barely. In the end, the coolest car with the lowest price in its specific classis is always what the majority of the market will buy.  Example: Dodge will never successfully rip off Mitsibishi, and the Eclipse will always sell better than the Stealth/Talon.

Marinejuana wrote:

There are actually multiple correct definitions of the word industry depending upon your discipline. Among some scientists the word industry accurately describes the assembleges of stone tools made by prehistoric people. Among historians the word industry often refers to large-scale production (ie, in factories--"the industrial revolution"). The former definition may represent the sense in which Europe had a car "industry" in the 1890's whereas the latter better fits the production of automobiles in the US.

Its silly to credit Otto Benz with much based on the wikipedia article. I guess he refined the ideas that were circulating, but automobile prototypes had been produced in both Europe and the US by 1800. Notably a french design from 1765 and a US design from 1789. The gas combustion engine was a swiss design of 1805. I would say a worldwide community of independent engineers started the automobile industry over the course of a couple hundred years with various small projects culminating in the large-scale production of the 1900s.

And let me just say that listening to all of your nationalistic inferiority complexes has been quite entertaining. We should sling mud back and forth across the Atlantic more often. I enjoy both the "America is the number one country!!!" type responses and the "Logic was invented by XYZ European guy" type posts. I'm just going to bet that nothing important was originated by any of the direct ancestors of any authors in this thread.

---
Nice try MJ - however it didn't become a car until the Germans invented the combustible engine - before that they were carriages not cars, Oh, and the Europeans did invent Logic, Greece is a part of Europe last time I looked, so refine that and stick it in your bong and smoke it

car = Carriage + combustible engine duh!! what defines an industry? when product is invented and starts to be produced, next it becomes a question of scale. Annnnnnnnyways the above post had my tongue firmly in cheek.  This horse is well & truely flogged to death now. I dunno we need a new topic like "is China a Terrorist State? is US supporting Terrorism by trading with China while waging a war against "teh terrorists" of the world " or something to lighten the mood..

Last edited by IG-Calibre (2006-09-13 06:01:16)

and see, that's really the issue.  Because no one started on any "we're the best" country on either side, but it seems that everyone just assumes that it's a subtext from anyone saying anything from America.  So, it is just automatically inserted into anything and everything and then attributed back to the original poster.  Like adding "in your pants" to the end of a fortune cookie and then saying that the fortune is perverted and getting mad at the Chinese restaurant.

ts-pulsar wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

The car industry in the US has been steadily losing lots of money. General Motors and Ford are in no immediate danger of shutting down, but long term they are in serious trouble. GM and Ford stocks have both reached junk levels (GM reaching BB, the 2nd highest junk level - Ford reaching BB+, the highest junk level).

One of the most serious problems US car manufacturers face is that it is very difficult for them to sell their cars elsewhere around the world. Most US built cars do not reach emissions standards in other countries that would be ideal target markets. Arnie has been in trouble with the US car industry because of the introduction of legislation that will bring emissions standards in California up to the same levels as China currently has gradually over 11 years. Japan and Europe as well as many other countries have higher emissions standards than China. This inabilty to export the majority of cars produced in the US has hit the manufacturers hard, as have falling sales in the US.

Do these giants of the automobile industry have a future?

That info on emmissions being more lax in california compaired to europe or china is a bit off.  There are a lot of cars that aren't imported from europe and japan because they don't meat california emmisions standards.  The Nissan Skyline isn't imported because of this, and almost no diesels are imported because they can't even get close to california emmision standards unless it's a full size truck.  And the idea that china has stricter emmisions standards seems really off, I watched a documentary about 3 months ago on china, and it was saying something that China uses the same emmision standards as europe, from 15 years ago.

But I do get where your coming from, american cars don't meat europian standards because they emmit some substances that europe deems harmful, and california has the same problem with some foreign cars, usually due to sulphur emmisions and anything deemed to be even remotely harmful to human health, where as europian standards tend to be more focused on global health.

Sorry I should have specified non particulate emissions. California does have extremely stringent particulate regualtions, which apply to diesel cars (0.006g/km compared to 0.025g/km in current European legislation (Euro IV) - which is set to fall under the new Euro V standards (proposed for 2008/9) to 0.005g/km).

The US emissions and economy standards are exceedingly low. Whereas China's are actually quite high. 3rd highest in fact, after the EU and Japan. Californias emission standards are set to reach Chinas current standards by 2016. Different regions of China do have different standards and the standards I have quoted as China's are the highest in China, in the Republic of China (Taiwan) emissions standards are significantly lower, at US tier 1 levels - but that isn't proper China. Most of China follows Euro III standards, set to rise to Euro IV standards this year. More like European emission standards from 1 year before - maybe you mistook 15 years for 15 months.

It is not to do with emitting some substances that Europe deems harmful. Emissions regulation across the world cover the same emissions (CO (Carbon Monoxide), HC (Hydrocarbons), NOx (Nitrogen oxide) and PM (particulate matter)). The only emission where California comes close to other standards is the PM emissions, which are lower, for now.

Carbon Dioxide standards California is behind on as well and set to stay behind in future. The EU have proposed limits of 120g CO2/km by 2010 at the latest, whereas Californian limits on CO2 specify 201 g/km in 2009, set to fall to 141 g/km in 2013.

I don't know about China's Carbon Dioxide standards.

They will just have to move all new vehicles to either biodiesel, hybrid, or ethanol, or all of the above. Cars running solely on gas will phase out eventually as gas prices will never go below $2.00 national average.

Bertster7 wrote:

Jenkinsbball wrote:

They will just have to move all new vehicles to either biodiesel, hybrid, or ethanol, or all of the above. Cars running solely on gas will phase out eventually as gas prices will never go below $2.00 national average.

Petrol prices in UK $7.14 a gallon (£1/litre).

So I saw in the post you made in this thread http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=44200&p=3

Stop complaining. In Britain you can often pay over £1/litre for petrol. That's $7.14 a gallon.

That's still crazy, no wonder you guys drive those mini cars.

European cars FTW !

Jenkinsbball wrote:

Who cares how much fuel costs in the UK. You guys drive tiny cars on tiny roads and your entire country is the size of Texas, meaning you don't have to drive as far as we do.

Precisely the point I'm making. No one else wants stupid big American cars, because no other countries allow the emissions and the people don't want to have to pay extortionate amounts for fuel.

That's why US car manufacturers are losing loads of money. They can only sell many their cars in America. This massively limits their potential profits.

check out www.theaircar.com
Those cars are 100% pollution free.