BF2S Forums What do you think of Cheney/Bush/Rumsfeld?

lowing wrote:

GATOR591957 wrote:

lowing wrote:

This would suggest that education does get its share of tax dollars.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/c … 052203.asp

These were taken for the school year 2000-2001.  Kind of old facts don't you think?

ok fair enough........"Education: $732. Education spending is primarily a state and local function; 9 percent of the total comes from Washington. Federal education spending has surged 137 percent since the 2001 enactment of the No Child Left Behind Act. Most federal dollars are spent on low-income school districts, special education and college student financial aid."


taken from......... http://www.heritage.org/Press/Commentary/ed041406d.cfm

Last edited by GATOR591957 (2006-08-23 12:57:05)

jonsimon wrote:

lowing wrote:

GATOR591957 wrote:

Here's why I think NCLB is hoax:

    1. The massive increase in testing that NCLB will impose on schools will hurt their educational performance, not improve it.

    2. The funding for NCLB does not come anywhere near the levels that would be needed to reach even the narrow and dubious goal of producing 100% passing rates on state tests for all students by 2014.

    3. The mandate that NCLB imposes on schools to eliminate inequality in test scores among all student groups within 12 years is a mandate that is placed on no other social institution, and reflects the hypocrisy at the heart of the law.

    4. The sanctions that NCLB imposes on schools that don't meet its test score targets will hurt poor schools and poor communities most.

    5. The transfer and choice provisions of NCLB will create chaos and produce greater inequality within the public system without increasing the capacity of receiving schools to deliver better educational services.

    6. These same transfer and choice provisions will not give low-income parents any more control over school bureaucracies than food stamps give them over the supermarkets.

    7. The provisions about using scientifically-based instructional practices are neither scientifically valid nor educationally sound and will harmfully impact classrooms in what may be the single most important instructional area, the teaching of reading.

    8. The supplemental tutorial provisions of NCLB will channel public funds to private companies for ideological and political reasons, not sound educational ones.

    9. NCLB is part of a larger political and ideological effort to privatize social programs, reduce the public sector, and ultimately replace local control of institutions like schools with marketplace reforms that substitute commercial relations between customers for democratic relations between citizens.

    10. NCLB moves control over curriculum and instructional issues away from teachers, classrooms, schools and local districts where it should be, and puts it in the hands of state and federal education bureaucracies and politicians. It represents the single biggest assault on local control of schools in the history of federal education policy.

OK, that's ten: But frankly this law is so bad, I needed 11, so here's #11 on my top ten list of reasons why NCLB is a fraud:

    11. NCLB includes provisions that try to push prayer, military recruiters, and homophobia into schools while pushing multiculturalism, teacher innovation, and creative curriculum reform out.

Taken from: http://www.rethinkingschools.org/specia … hoax.shtml

I would ask where is the money going, because it is not going to the schools where it was earmarked for.

Another note, the 732 dollars is per household, not per child.

Well we obviously could go round and round over this, for me it comes down to 1 thing: And the liberals hate it!!

Personal Responsibility.

Our education system provides classrooms with controlled environments, supplies, teachers. All the the parents have to do is supply a properly raised kid who wants to learn. Instead, the schools get kids that spent the first 5 years of their lives raised like shit. Then the school gets blamed because the kids ACT like shit. The parents are the ultimate responsibility in all of this. It takes more than just a gazillion dollars thrown at a fuckin' education system, it takes a tripod of learning. Teachers who want to teach, kids who want to learn, and parents who support that learning ( instead of using school as a free baby sitting service).

What does that have to do with NCLB? And why would liberals hate personal responsibility?

I think you may have just dodged this good man's argument. :\

lowing wrote:

Well we obviously could go round and round over this, for me it comes down to 1 thing: And the liberals hate it!!

Personal Responsibility.

Our education system provides classrooms with controlled environments, supplies, teachers. All the the parents have to do is supply a properly raised kid who wants to learn. Instead, the schools get kids that spent the first 5 years of their lives raised like shit. Then the school gets blamed because the kids ACT like shit. The parents are the ultimate responsibility in all of this. It takes more than just a gazillion dollars thrown at a fuckin' education system, it takes a tripod of learning. Teachers who want to teach, kids who want to learn, and parents who support that learning ( instead of using school as a free baby sitting service).

The_Shipbuilder wrote:

lowing wrote:

Well we obviously could go round and round over this, for me it comes down to 1 thing: And the liberals hate it!!

Personal Responsibility.

Our education system provides classrooms with controlled environments, supplies, teachers. All the the parents have to do is supply a properly raised kid who wants to learn. Instead, the schools get kids that spent the first 5 years of their lives raised like shit. Then the school gets blamed because the kids ACT like shit. The parents are the ultimate responsibility in all of this. It takes more than just a gazillion dollars thrown at a fuckin' education system, it takes a tripod of learning. Teachers who want to teach, kids who want to learn, and parents who support that learning ( instead of using school as a free baby sitting service).

I agree with you almost 100%, lowing.

The sole caveat I would add to complicate this view is that a lot of inner-city schools are underfunded to the point of physically falling apart, not enough books to go round, high school band departments with 4 working instruments, etc. That's an issue. So even if you are a motivated student, in that sort of an environment it's difficult to succeed.

Meanwhile, public schools in rich suburbs have "cardio rooms" and treadmills with LCD televisions.

sergeriver wrote:

lowing wrote:

GATOR591957 wrote:

Here's why I think NCLB is hoax:

    1. The massive increase in testing that NCLB will impose on schools will hurt their educational performance, not improve it.

    2. The funding for NCLB does not come anywhere near the levels that would be needed to reach even the narrow and dubious goal of producing 100% passing rates on state tests for all students by 2014.

    3. The mandate that NCLB imposes on schools to eliminate inequality in test scores among all student groups within 12 years is a mandate that is placed on no other social institution, and reflects the hypocrisy at the heart of the law.

    4. The sanctions that NCLB imposes on schools that don't meet its test score targets will hurt poor schools and poor communities most.

    5. The transfer and choice provisions of NCLB will create chaos and produce greater inequality within the public system without increasing the capacity of receiving schools to deliver better educational services.

    6. These same transfer and choice provisions will not give low-income parents any more control over school bureaucracies than food stamps give them over the supermarkets.

    7. The provisions about using scientifically-based instructional practices are neither scientifically valid nor educationally sound and will harmfully impact classrooms in what may be the single most important instructional area, the teaching of reading.

    8. The supplemental tutorial provisions of NCLB will channel public funds to private companies for ideological and political reasons, not sound educational ones.

    9. NCLB is part of a larger political and ideological effort to privatize social programs, reduce the public sector, and ultimately replace local control of institutions like schools with marketplace reforms that substitute commercial relations between customers for democratic relations between citizens.

    10. NCLB moves control over curriculum and instructional issues away from teachers, classrooms, schools and local districts where it should be, and puts it in the hands of state and federal education bureaucracies and politicians. It represents the single biggest assault on local control of schools in the history of federal education policy.

OK, that's ten: But frankly this law is so bad, I needed 11, so here's #11 on my top ten list of reasons why NCLB is a fraud:

    11. NCLB includes provisions that try to push prayer, military recruiters, and homophobia into schools while pushing multiculturalism, teacher innovation, and creative curriculum reform out.

Taken from: http://www.rethinkingschools.org/specia … hoax.shtml

I would ask where is the money going, because it is not going to the schools where it was earmarked for.

Another note, the 732 dollars is per household, not per child.

Well we obviously could go round and round over this, for me it comes down to 1 thing: And the liberals hate it!!

Personal Responsibility.

Our education system provides classrooms with controlled environments, supplies, teachers. All the the parents have to do is supply a properly raised kid who wants to learn. Instead, the schools get kids that spent the first 5 years of their lives raised like shit. Then the school gets blamed because the kids ACT like shit. The parents are the ultimate responsibility in all of this. It takes more than just a gazillion dollars thrown at a fuckin' education system, it takes a tripod of learning. Teachers who want to teach, kids who want to learn, and parents who support that learning ( instead of using school as a free baby sitting service).

Oh, Lowing, Lowing.  Kids never want to learn, kids want to skate, or to thorw a rock to birds, don't you get that?  The government responsibility is giving funds to schools so teachers are well prepared and they have all they need to educate those kids in the proper way with the proper stuff.  The personal responsibility you talk relays in the parents, who must encourage kids to study.  But, the government has complete responsibility in the quality of education.  What do you expect a kid to learn if the teacher who is educating him earns 22k a year?  The three more important issues in a country if you want to grow are education, health and justice

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

lowing wrote:

Bottom line.........Blame irresponsible parents and irresponsible kids for their lack of education. The schools are there, the teachers are there, the books are there.... GOOD KIDS AND PARENTS are not.

And how do people become less irresponsible?  The first step is often a good e_______n, which will teach them responsibility.  (fill in the blank)

So perhaps spending money on educating adults is just as important as not leaving any child behind... you've just said spending on the children doesn't achieve as much when they have poorly educated parents, perhaps (*gasp*) affordable adult education and incentives for companies which encourage low income staff to study may help to break the cycle.  Of course, there's always the problem of who's going to do the shitty work once everyone has a decent education...

lowing wrote:

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

lowing wrote:

Bottom line.........Blame irresponsible parents and irresponsible kids for their lack of education. The schools are there, the teachers are there, the books are there.... GOOD KIDS AND PARENTS are not.

And how do people become less irresponsible?  The first step is often a good e_______n, which will teach them responsibility.  (fill in the blank)

So perhaps spending money on educating adults is just as important as not leaving any child behind... you've just said spending on the children doesn't achieve as much when they have poorly educated parents, perhaps (*gasp*) affordable adult education and incentives for companies which encourage low income staff to study may help to break the cycle.  Of course, there's always the problem of who's going to do the shitty work once everyone has a decent education...

No unorginalnuttah, the tools are in place for "adults" to e----------cate themselves if they choose to. Again it is called PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY!!......Sucks don't it??

The_Shipbuilder wrote:

lowing wrote:

The_Shipbuilder wrote:

The sole caveat I would add to complicate this view is that a lot of inner-city schools are underfunded to the point of physically falling apart, not enough books to go round, high school band departments with 4 working instruments, etc. That's an issue. So even if you are a motivated student, in that sort of an environment it's difficult to succeed.

Any chance that those schools are falling apart, because of who is destroying them??

You know lowing,I thought maybe a different approach with you might set up room for a dialogue rather than the kind of trench warfare bullshit that we've had before. I found somewhere to agree with you. Yet it seems you're unable to even acknowledge any view on anything that is not perfectly in alignment with yours.

You actually have some good points sometimes, but you never fail to sound condescending. I'm not saying I haven't contributed my fair share of insults, but I also don't think my worldview is infalliable.

Is it that you don't want to appear weak in some way? Or just that you are rarely ever incorrect, and no one else really gets it?

Why do you post on these forums? What is your purpose, and what do you get out of it?

I'm not asking loaded questions, I'm sincerely curious to know what you have to say.

lowing wrote:

You accuse me of "never being incorrect" well the truth is, how often are any of us incorrect??

lowing wrote:

As a conservative, I tote the banner of "personal responsibility". I believe it. It isn't just some "bullshit" I like to say. As a matter of fact I also live it and teach it to my sons. We all have to play the hands we are dealt in life and if you have 4 arms and 4 legs and a sharp mind,  you have no excuse to be in poverty or on welfare, in this country. Someone's failings in life are not "BUSHS fault" and I am sick of everyone shunning their responsibilities to themselves or their families on the govt.

lowing wrote:

if you have 4 arms and 4 legs and a sharp mind,  you have no excuse to be in poverty or on welfare