MorbiD.ShoT
Stormin' through the party
+322|6783

Toilet Sex wrote:

OnePumpChump wrote:

Toilet Sex wrote:

No, I'm getting my genre info from years of listening to metal and reading about it, because it interests me.  Genres are also classified by the music, not the fan's or the band's opinion.
Maybe it's just my skewed thinking, but somebody actaully sits down and puts labels on this music, not the music itself. Whether it's a writer, or a band, or a fan, a store,... someone does it. So what makes them or you or me qualified to put a label on a CD? I try not to waste my time with the sub-genres peeps put on music. If it's pop, country, rap, opera, I don't like it. If metal is in the title, there is a good chance I'd at least give it an ear. (No offense to anyone who likes the afformentioned genres of music). And that's fine by me if you are intereseted in the sub-genres, I just thought I'd voice my opinion.
I'll use black metal as an example, also remember I'm speaking generally. (Keyword is generally)

Fans of Immortal and Ondskapt may go looking for new bands, and it's widely known that fans of the "true" () Norwegian black metal bands hate bands like Dimmu Borgir. Which is where sub-genres come in. Dimmu Borgir and Immortal have completely different sounds, yet could both be called black metal. So, a sub-genre (or sub-sug-genre if you must...) is created, symphonic black metal. Because of Dimmu Borgir's symphonic elements mixed with their style of black metal, fans of Immortal wouldn't find their music good to listen to. So instead fans of Immortal know to avoid symphonic black metal, but instead look for new black metal bands, WITHOUT the symphonic elements. (Hope this made sense/got my point across)

Also I agree, Christ Illusion > GHUA as a whole.
Although you may think that sounded very confusing, I get you 100 percent.

It is true that Dimmu Borgir's newest cd is not classic "black metal" because of the way it sounds, meaning not basement recorded...blah blah blah.  So i see why it's symphonic black metal.

But, what i just don't understand is your definition of metalcore
Which started this whole thing.

So, how do you define metalcore and name some other bands that you would put in that genre and I will see if i agree with you.
Toilet Sex
one love, one pig
+1,775|6759

MorbiD.ShoT wrote:

Toilet Sex wrote:

OnePumpChump wrote:


Maybe it's just my skewed thinking, but somebody actaully sits down and puts labels on this music, not the music itself. Whether it's a writer, or a band, or a fan, a store,... someone does it. So what makes them or you or me qualified to put a label on a CD? I try not to waste my time with the sub-genres peeps put on music. If it's pop, country, rap, opera, I don't like it. If metal is in the title, there is a good chance I'd at least give it an ear. (No offense to anyone who likes the afformentioned genres of music). And that's fine by me if you are intereseted in the sub-genres, I just thought I'd voice my opinion.
I'll use black metal as an example, also remember I'm speaking generally. (Keyword is generally)

Fans of Immortal and Ondskapt may go looking for new bands, and it's widely known that fans of the "true" () Norwegian black metal bands hate bands like Dimmu Borgir. Which is where sub-genres come in. Dimmu Borgir and Immortal have completely different sounds, yet could both be called black metal. So, a sub-genre (or sub-sug-genre if you must...) is created, symphonic black metal. Because of Dimmu Borgir's symphonic elements mixed with their style of black metal, fans of Immortal wouldn't find their music good to listen to. So instead fans of Immortal know to avoid symphonic black metal, but instead look for new black metal bands, WITHOUT the symphonic elements. (Hope this made sense/got my point across)

Also I agree, Christ Illusion > GHUA as a whole.
Although you may think that sounded very confusing, I get you 100 percent.

It is true that Dimmu Borgir's newest cd is not classic "black metal" because of the way it sounds, meaning not basement recorded...blah blah blah.  So i see why it's symphonic black metal.

But, what i just don't understand is your definition of metalcore
Which started this whole thing.

So, how do you define metalcore and name some other bands that you would put in that genre and I will see if i agree with you.
Well metalcore is mixing metal with hardcore, and their sounds stand out a lot to me. (I'm not one of the elitists who say metalcore isn't part of metal and all that crap, and I listen to some metalcore bands)

But anyway, Chimaira, Heaven Shall Burn, Caliban and Trivium off the top of my head.
OnePumpChump
Member
+0|6876|Ohio

Toilet Sex wrote:

OnePumpChump wrote:

Toilet Sex wrote:

No, I'm getting my genre info from years of listening to metal and reading about it, because it interests me.  Genres are also classified by the music, not the fan's or the band's opinion.
Maybe it's just my skewed thinking, but somebody actaully sits down and puts labels on this music, not the music itself. Whether it's a writer, or a band, or a fan, a store,... someone does it. So what makes them or you or me qualified to put a label on a CD? I try not to waste my time with the sub-genres peeps put on music. If it's pop, country, rap, opera, I don't like it. If metal is in the title, there is a good chance I'd at least give it an ear. (No offense to anyone who likes the afformentioned genres of music). And that's fine by me if you are intereseted in the sub-genres, I just thought I'd voice my opinion.
I'll use black metal as an example, also remember I'm speaking generally. (Keyword is generally)

Fans of Immortal and Ondskapt may go looking for new bands, and it's widely known that fans of the "true" () Norwegian black metal bands hate bands like Dimmu Borgir. Which is where sub-genres come in. Dimmu Borgir and Immortal have completely different sounds, yet could both be called black metal. So, a sub-genre (or sub-sug-genre if you must...) is created, symphonic black metal. Because of Dimmu Borgir's symphonic elements mixed with their style of black metal, fans of Immortal wouldn't find their music good to listen to. So instead fans of Immortal know to avoid symphonic black metal, but instead look for new black metal bands, WITHOUT the symphonic elements. (Hope this made sense/got my point across)

Also I agree, Christ Illusion > GHUA as a whole.
I understand, even before you posted this. I know Dimmu and Cradle are frowned down upon by other black metal bands because they sound different. So why are they even in the Black Metal category? Who put them there? Someone did. And why didn't that person just create another main genre to put them in, since they do sound that different from the Norwegian scene?
Toilet Sex
one love, one pig
+1,775|6759

OnePumpChump wrote:

Toilet Sex wrote:

OnePumpChump wrote:


Maybe it's just my skewed thinking, but somebody actaully sits down and puts labels on this music, not the music itself. Whether it's a writer, or a band, or a fan, a store,... someone does it. So what makes them or you or me qualified to put a label on a CD? I try not to waste my time with the sub-genres peeps put on music. If it's pop, country, rap, opera, I don't like it. If metal is in the title, there is a good chance I'd at least give it an ear. (No offense to anyone who likes the afformentioned genres of music). And that's fine by me if you are intereseted in the sub-genres, I just thought I'd voice my opinion.
I'll use black metal as an example, also remember I'm speaking generally. (Keyword is generally)

Fans of Immortal and Ondskapt may go looking for new bands, and it's widely known that fans of the "true" () Norwegian black metal bands hate bands like Dimmu Borgir. Which is where sub-genres come in. Dimmu Borgir and Immortal have completely different sounds, yet could both be called black metal. So, a sub-genre (or sub-sug-genre if you must...) is created, symphonic black metal. Because of Dimmu Borgir's symphonic elements mixed with their style of black metal, fans of Immortal wouldn't find their music good to listen to. So instead fans of Immortal know to avoid symphonic black metal, but instead look for new black metal bands, WITHOUT the symphonic elements. (Hope this made sense/got my point across)

Also I agree, Christ Illusion > GHUA as a whole.
I understand, even before you posted this. I know Dimmu and Cradle are frowned down upon by other black metal bands because they sound different. So why are they even in the Black Metal category? Who put them there? Someone did. And why didn't that person just create another main genre to put them in, since they do sound that different from the Norwegian scene?
Dimmu Borgir's older stuff is black metal, and they started adding symphonic elements and crap to develop their sound. They still have *some* traits of black metal in their music. Also Cradle don't have many if any at all black metal traits except the ear raping vocals. Cradle of Filth share a lot in common with gothic metal, and some say they're "extreme gothic metal".
MorbiD.ShoT
Stormin' through the party
+322|6783

Toilet Sex wrote:

MorbiD.ShoT wrote:

Toilet Sex wrote:


I'll use black metal as an example, also remember I'm speaking generally. (Keyword is generally)

Fans of Immortal and Ondskapt may go looking for new bands, and it's widely known that fans of the "true" () Norwegian black metal bands hate bands like Dimmu Borgir. Which is where sub-genres come in. Dimmu Borgir and Immortal have completely different sounds, yet could both be called black metal. So, a sub-genre (or sub-sug-genre if you must...) is created, symphonic black metal. Because of Dimmu Borgir's symphonic elements mixed with their style of black metal, fans of Immortal wouldn't find their music good to listen to. So instead fans of Immortal know to avoid symphonic black metal, but instead look for new black metal bands, WITHOUT the symphonic elements. (Hope this made sense/got my point across)

Also I agree, Christ Illusion > GHUA as a whole.
Although you may think that sounded very confusing, I get you 100 percent.

It is true that Dimmu Borgir's newest cd is not classic "black metal" because of the way it sounds, meaning not basement recorded...blah blah blah.  So i see why it's symphonic black metal.

But, what i just don't understand is your definition of metalcore
Which started this whole thing.

So, how do you define metalcore and name some other bands that you would put in that genre and I will see if i agree with you.
Well metalcore is mixing metal with hardcore, and their sounds stand out a lot to me. (I'm not one of the elitists who say metalcore isn't part of metal and all that crap, and I listen to some metalcore bands)

But anyway, Chimaira, Heaven Shall Burn, Caliban and Trivium off the top of my head.
Eh...I'm not so sure if Chimaira and Caliban belong in the same category as Trivium and Lamb of God.  But don't you think that Trivium doesn't belong there because they sing/scream whereas Lamb of God screams only?
OnePumpChump
Member
+0|6876|Ohio

Toilet Sex wrote:

But anyway, Chimaira, Heaven Shall Burn, Caliban and Trivium off the top of my head.
Toilet, I am really not trying to single you out, but those bands to me are all metal. I have almost all of those bands complete libraries, and I can definately say that those that you listed sound a bit different from each other. Which leads me to my point of "It is all a matter of opinion." Like I said, I'm not down with the whole sub-genre thing myself, but I do think Trivium sounds quite different from Heavan Shall Burn!
Toilet Sex
one love, one pig
+1,775|6759

MorbiD.ShoT wrote:

Toilet Sex wrote:

MorbiD.ShoT wrote:

Although you may think that sounded very confusing, I get you 100 percent.

It is true that Dimmu Borgir's newest cd is not classic "black metal" because of the way it sounds, meaning not basement recorded...blah blah blah.  So i see why it's symphonic black metal.

But, what i just don't understand is your definition of metalcore
Which started this whole thing.

So, how do you define metalcore and name some other bands that you would put in that genre and I will see if i agree with you.
Well metalcore is mixing metal with hardcore, and their sounds stand out a lot to me. (I'm not one of the elitists who say metalcore isn't part of metal and all that crap, and I listen to some metalcore bands)

But anyway, Chimaira, Heaven Shall Burn, Caliban and Trivium off the top of my head.
Eh...I'm not so sure if Chimaira and Caliban belong in the same category as Trivium and Lamb of God.  But don't you think that Trivium doesn't belong there because they sing/scream whereas Lamb of God screams only?
Not all metalcore bands are purely hardcore/metal crossovers. Lamb of God's vocals are much harsher than the majority of metalcore bands (possibly influenced by death metal), so Trivium have some much softer vocals sometimes possibly. Not all Trivium songs have some clean I don't think (not a Trivium fan) but I don't think "Pull Harder on the Strings of Your Martyr" has clean vocals. (Not sure?)

Wtf, I messed up this post. XD </late>

Last edited by Toilet Sex (2006-08-22 21:03:56)

MorbiD.ShoT
Stormin' through the party
+322|6783

OnePumpChump wrote:

Toilet Sex wrote:

But anyway, Chimaira, Heaven Shall Burn, Caliban and Trivium off the top of my head.
Toilet, I am really not trying to single you out, but those bands to me are all metal. I have almost all of those bands complete libraries, and I can definately say that those that you listed sound a bit different from each other. Which leads me to my point of "It is all a matter of opinion." Like I said, I'm not down with the whole sub-genre thing myself, but I do think Trivium sounds quite different from Heavan Shall Burn!
Dude i completely agree with you.
MorbiD.ShoT
Stormin' through the party
+322|6783

Toilet Sex wrote:

MorbiD.ShoT wrote:

Toilet Sex wrote:


Well metalcore is mixing metal with hardcore, and their sounds stand out a lot to me. (I'm not one of the elitists who say metalcore isn't part of metal and all that crap, and I listen to some metalcore bands)

But anyway, Chimaira, Heaven Shall Burn, Caliban and Trivium off the top of my head.
Eh...I'm not so sure if Chimaira and Caliban belong in the same category as Trivium and Lamb of God.  But don't you think that Trivium doesn't belong there because they sing/scream whereas Lamb of God screams only?
Not all metalcore bands are purely hardcore/metal crossovers. Lamb of God's vocals are much harsher than the majority of metalcore bands (possibly influenced by death metal), so Trivium have some much softer vocals sometimes possibly. Not all Trivium songs have some clean I don't think (not a Trivium fan) but I don't think "Pull Harder on the Strings of Your Martyr" has clean vocals. (Not sure?)
If you mean clean as in no explicit language then no, it has curses and abusive language in it.  But if you mean clean by only scream?  Then no it also has singing in it.  Trivium's previous cd "Ember to Inferno" is mainly screaming but also has some singin, maybe one or two songs.

So I am not so sure that Lamb of God or Trivium are metalcore by your definition, whihc btw is still very unclear to me.
Toilet Sex
one love, one pig
+1,775|6759

OnePumpChump wrote:

Toilet Sex wrote:

But anyway, Chimaira, Heaven Shall Burn, Caliban and Trivium off the top of my head.
Toilet, I am really not trying to single you out, but those bands to me are all metal. I have almost all of those bands complete libraries, and I can definately say that those that you listed sound a bit different from each other. Which leads me to my point of "It is all a matter of opinion." Like I said, I'm not down with the whole sub-genre thing myself, but I do think Trivium sounds quite different from Heavan Shall Burn!
Have your opinion on what genres those bands are, I don't care, but their music defines otherwise (not just their "sound"-vocal styles, guitars, drumming styles, etc.)

Slipknot and KoRn are nu-metal, right? Nu-metal is defined largely by use of a DJ, guitar styles, lack of solos, vocals, etc. Both bands sound completely different, yet both are nu-metal because of the bass, guitar style, the vocal styles. KoRn don't have a DJ, but Slipknot do.

A band doesn't have to fit the whole "sound" or fit every single detail of a sub-genre to be grouped with them.
Toilet Sex
one love, one pig
+1,775|6759

MorbiD.ShoT wrote:

Toilet Sex wrote:

MorbiD.ShoT wrote:

Eh...I'm not so sure if Chimaira and Caliban belong in the same category as Trivium and Lamb of God.  But don't you think that Trivium doesn't belong there because they sing/scream whereas Lamb of God screams only?
Not all metalcore bands are purely hardcore/metal crossovers. Lamb of God's vocals are much harsher than the majority of metalcore bands (possibly influenced by death metal), so Trivium have some much softer vocals sometimes possibly. Not all Trivium songs have some clean I don't think (not a Trivium fan) but I don't think "Pull Harder on the Strings of Your Martyr" has clean vocals. (Not sure?)
If you mean clean as in no explicit language then no, it has curses and abusive language in it.  But if you mean clean by only scream?  Then no it also has singing in it.  Trivium's previous cd "Ember to Inferno" is mainly screaming but also has some singin, maybe one or two songs.

So I am not so sure that Lamb of God or Trivium are metalcore by your definition, whihc btw is still very unclear to me.
I'm not going to type out my whole defintion of metalcore now, because I'm too tired and can't be bothered. Here's something close though. Itallics are parts I added to make it clear.

Metalcore is a musical genre consisting of a mix between heavy metal and hardcore punk. Although the genre has risen in popularity since the turn of the millennium, it is not a new genre, as many would believe, since bands such as Integrity have been around since the late 1980s. Defining the metalcore sound is not an easy task, as various bands have fused a hardcore-influenced sound and attitude with many different types of metal (Lamb of God's vocals - death metal, Trivium's vocals - later melodic death (Soilwork)).
MorbiD.ShoT
Stormin' through the party
+322|6783

Toilet Sex wrote:

MorbiD.ShoT wrote:

Toilet Sex wrote:

Not all metalcore bands are purely hardcore/metal crossovers. Lamb of God's vocals are much harsher than the majority of metalcore bands (possibly influenced by death metal), so Trivium have some much softer vocals sometimes possibly. Not all Trivium songs have some clean I don't think (not a Trivium fan) but I don't think "Pull Harder on the Strings of Your Martyr" has clean vocals. (Not sure?)
If you mean clean as in no explicit language then no, it has curses and abusive language in it.  But if you mean clean by only scream?  Then no it also has singing in it.  Trivium's previous cd "Ember to Inferno" is mainly screaming but also has some singin, maybe one or two songs.

So I am not so sure that Lamb of God or Trivium are metalcore by your definition, whihc btw is still very unclear to me.
I'm not going to type out my whole defintion of metalcore now, because I'm too tired and can't be bothered. Here's something close though. Itallics are parts I added to make it clear.

Metalcore is a musical genre consisting of a mix between heavy metal and hardcore punk. Although the genre has risen in popularity since the turn of the millennium, it is not a new genre, as many would believe, since bands such as Integrity have been around since the late 1980s. Defining the metalcore sound is not an easy task, as various bands have fused a hardcore-influenced sound and attitude with many different types of metal (Lamb of God's vocals - death metal, Trivium's vocals - later melodic death (Soilwork)).
Ok.  I'm also too tired to continue this discussion.  Avass, It must be completed another time.  But, what I don't get is, why do we have to have all of these subgenres and subsub genres?  I just love metal, i live for it and i may want to go into the music industy as an agent or producer or something!  I just love the music.

Metal for life.

Yes, even when I'm 95.

Last edited by MorbiD.ShoT (2006-08-22 21:21:16)

Toilet Sex
one love, one pig
+1,775|6759

MorbiD.ShoT wrote:

Toilet Sex wrote:

MorbiD.ShoT wrote:


If you mean clean as in no explicit language then no, it has curses and abusive language in it.  But if you mean clean by only scream?  Then no it also has singing in it.  Trivium's previous cd "Ember to Inferno" is mainly screaming but also has some singin, maybe one or two songs.

So I am not so sure that Lamb of God or Trivium are metalcore by your definition, whihc btw is still very unclear to me.
I'm not going to type out my whole defintion of metalcore now, because I'm too tired and can't be bothered. Here's something close though. Itallics are parts I added to make it clear.

Metalcore is a musical genre consisting of a mix between heavy metal and hardcore punk. Although the genre has risen in popularity since the turn of the millennium, it is not a new genre, as many would believe, since bands such as Integrity have been around since the late 1980s. Defining the metalcore sound is not an easy task, as various bands have fused a hardcore-influenced sound and attitude with many different types of metal (Lamb of God's vocals - death metal, Trivium's vocals - later melodic death (Soilwork)).
Ok.  I'm also too tired to continue this discussion.  Avass, It must be completed another time.  But, what I don't get is, why do we have to have all of these subgenres and subsub genres?  I just love metal, i live for it and i may want to go into the music industy as an agent or producer or something!  I just love the music.

Metal for life.

Yes, even when I'm 95.
Subgenres are necessary, believe me. Searching for metal bands doesn't cover it when you're looking for power metal, you'd also come across black, death and thrash metal bands. All completely different I'm sure you'll agree.
MorbiD.ShoT
Stormin' through the party
+322|6783

Toilet Sex wrote:

MorbiD.ShoT wrote:

Toilet Sex wrote:

MorbiD.ShoT wrote:

If you mean clean as in no explicit language then no, it has curses and abusive language in it.  But if you mean clean by only scream?  Then no it also has singing in it.  Trivium's previous cd "Ember to Inferno" is mainly screaming but also has some singin, maybe one or two songs.

So I am not so sure that Lamb of God or Trivium are metalcore by your definition, whihc btw is still very unclear to me.
I'm not going to type out my whole defintion of metalcore now, because I'm too tired and can't be bothered. Here's something close though. Itallics are parts I added to make it clear.


Ok.  I'm also too tired to continue this discussion.  Avass, It must be completed another time.  But, what I don't get is, why do we have to have all of these subgenres and subsub genres?  I just love metal, i live for it and i may want to go into the music industy as an agent or producer or something!  I just love the music.

Metal for life.

Yes, even when I'm 95.
Subgenres are necessary, believe me. Searching for metal bands doesn't cover it when you're looking for power metal, you'd also come across black, death and thrash metal bands. All completely different I'm sure you'll agree.
That's the truth.  It's necessary for sorting and whatnot. 
This battle cannot be won by me, so I'll agree and say that they are necessary but some of the definitions are too broad to encompass some of the same bands.  So what I am basically trying to say is that every band has it's own unique sound (except for rip-off bands) and that they each technically could be put into their own subsubsubsubsubgenre.  See what I am saying?

But, subgenres and whatnot are needed for the sorthing of all the bands.  I just don't agree with some of the decisions.
xintegrityx
set your body ablaze
+37|6916|Louisiana

Toilet Sex wrote:

But anyway, Chimaira, Heaven Shall Burn, Caliban and Trivium off the top of my head.
Chimaira isn't metalcore, and neither is Lamb of God. I don't hear any hardcore influence in Chimaira's music - there's a lot more Bay Area thrash metal going on in their latest release than anything else.

Lamb of God really doesn't have much hardcore influence either, except for maybe the lo-fi production.
Toilet Sex
one love, one pig
+1,775|6759

xintegrityx wrote:

Toilet Sex wrote:

But anyway, Chimaira, Heaven Shall Burn, Caliban and Trivium off the top of my head.
Chimaira isn't metalcore, and neither is Lamb of God. I don't hear any hardcore influence in Chimaira's music - there's a lot more Bay Area thrash metal going on in their latest release than anything else.

Lamb of God really doesn't have much hardcore influence either, except for maybe the lo-fi production.
I give up... READ THE TOPIC.

Not all metalcore bands are purely hardcore/metal crossovers.
Not all metalcore bands are purely hardcore/metal crossovers.
Not all metalcore bands are purely hardcore/metal crossovers.
Not all metalcore bands are purely hardcore/metal crossovers.
Not all metalcore bands are purely hardcore/metal crossovers.
Not all metalcore bands are purely hardcore/metal crossovers.
I'm off to bed anyway, cya.

Last edited by Toilet Sex (2006-08-22 21:42:03)

xintegrityx
set your body ablaze
+37|6916|Louisiana

Toilet Sex wrote:

xintegrityx wrote:

Toilet Sex wrote:

But anyway, Chimaira, Heaven Shall Burn, Caliban and Trivium off the top of my head.
Chimaira isn't metalcore, and neither is Lamb of God. I don't hear any hardcore influence in Chimaira's music - there's a lot more Bay Area thrash metal going on in their latest release than anything else.

Lamb of God really doesn't have much hardcore influence either, except for maybe the lo-fi production.
I give up... READ THE TOPIC.
Well obviously... but a band isn't metalcore if they play metal with no readily apparent hardcore influences.

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