Alot of future games like 2142, Crysis, the new AA, QW:ET and more will all have ranking or honor systems, and most if not all will have an ROE in place, so it's something we all will have to get used too..2nDChancE wrote:
Ok, I'll indulge you IndianScout, but before I do, please enlighten us all on one point. Of the 250 or so mainsteam FPS titles released over the last 6 - 8 years, why did you feel BF2 needed some ROE? I mean seriously, you're telling people what they can or can't do in a f**king game. That doesn't sound like the most absurd thing you've ever heard?
- Index »
- Games »
- Battlefield Series »
- Battlefield 2 »
- Write a ROE of your own...
Well I can see that I actually would not want an arrogant person writing rules as Indian. Im 34 and the text you write makes you belittle yourself, look at the above text you wrote, and you expect to get positive feedback from that??
Look at the ROE I wrote or the one after and use that, throw the one you have in place now away, thats like from patch 1.03. Its a new game, new world. Get off your high horse because ole Lightening is dying, play the game how its meant to be played. Rules shouldn't disable people from doing just that.
This is perfect:
(Applies to players/admins)
1. Do not statspad. This could be:
Knife, revive, rinse, repeat
Damaging a car to repair it, and gain repair points.
2. Do not attempt to advertise illegal software/hardware/products.
3. Do not use hacks, exploits, or cheats.
4. Do not teamswitch to purposely raise your Win/Loss ratio.
5. Do not flame/bash another player (i.e. being racist/sexist/religious)
(Applies to admins)
1. Do not kick for pointless reasons (i.e. Teammate taking jet, teammate took commander, teammate killed you)
2. Do not encourage players to statpad.
3. Ranked servers can only run custom maps/mods only if it is pre-approved by DICE/EA
(Applies to players)
1. Do not purposely teamkill a teammate or damage a teammate's vehicle.
2. Do not attempt to have another teammate kill you (i.e. Standing on a runway as a plane takes off)
and mine:
No statspadding to gain rank, medals and ribbons
No revive, knife, revive opponent.
No changing sides to gain the "win"
No Pistol/Knife/Shock.
No 3rd party hacks
No Glitching or exploiting game mechanisms.
No personal bashing including but not limited to: Racism, religion, sexual whatever.
No intentional teamkilling.
Admins Cannot make servers to benefit yourself or clanmates including but not limited to:
Kicking for use of planes
Kicking for wanting commander
Kicking for being certain kit
Kicking by abusing admin powers.
Admins must follow guidelines involving:
Fair play, each person is addressed in a professional manner and giving direct reasons for being executed.
Always kick the lowest score if server is full and a clanmate need to come aboard.
Servers must follow guidelines involving:
Fair Play
Regulate Teamkilling.
High Point servers will always be there and there is nothing anyone can do about it.
Jihad Jeeping is a necessity.
Spawnraping is not an issue, but could be regulated by servers preference.
Non-caps is not an issue, but could be regulated by servers preference.
Vehicle whoring is not an issue and SHOULD NOT be a kickable offense.
Look at the ROE I wrote or the one after and use that, throw the one you have in place now away, thats like from patch 1.03. Its a new game, new world. Get off your high horse because ole Lightening is dying, play the game how its meant to be played. Rules shouldn't disable people from doing just that.
This is perfect:
(Applies to players/admins)
1. Do not statspad. This could be:
Knife, revive, rinse, repeat
Damaging a car to repair it, and gain repair points.
2. Do not attempt to advertise illegal software/hardware/products.
3. Do not use hacks, exploits, or cheats.
4. Do not teamswitch to purposely raise your Win/Loss ratio.
5. Do not flame/bash another player (i.e. being racist/sexist/religious)
(Applies to admins)
1. Do not kick for pointless reasons (i.e. Teammate taking jet, teammate took commander, teammate killed you)
2. Do not encourage players to statpad.
3. Ranked servers can only run custom maps/mods only if it is pre-approved by DICE/EA
(Applies to players)
1. Do not purposely teamkill a teammate or damage a teammate's vehicle.
2. Do not attempt to have another teammate kill you (i.e. Standing on a runway as a plane takes off)
and mine:
No statspadding to gain rank, medals and ribbons
No revive, knife, revive opponent.
No changing sides to gain the "win"
No Pistol/Knife/Shock.
No 3rd party hacks
No Glitching or exploiting game mechanisms.
No personal bashing including but not limited to: Racism, religion, sexual whatever.
No intentional teamkilling.
Admins Cannot make servers to benefit yourself or clanmates including but not limited to:
Kicking for use of planes
Kicking for wanting commander
Kicking for being certain kit
Kicking by abusing admin powers.
Admins must follow guidelines involving:
Fair play, each person is addressed in a professional manner and giving direct reasons for being executed.
Always kick the lowest score if server is full and a clanmate need to come aboard.
Servers must follow guidelines involving:
Fair Play
Regulate Teamkilling.
High Point servers will always be there and there is nothing anyone can do about it.
Jihad Jeeping is a necessity.
Spawnraping is not an issue, but could be regulated by servers preference.
Non-caps is not an issue, but could be regulated by servers preference.
Vehicle whoring is not an issue and SHOULD NOT be a kickable offense.
Last edited by imdead (2006-07-20 21:00:57)
no i think thats still fucking ridiculous,BFROE|IndianScout wrote:
Alot of future games like 2142, Crysis, the new AA, QW:ET and more will all have ranking or honor systems, and most if not all will have an ROE in place, so it's something we all will have to get used too..2nDChancE wrote:
Ok, I'll indulge you IndianScout, but before I do, please enlighten us all on one point. Of the 250 or so mainsteam FPS titles released over the last 6 - 8 years, why did you feel BF2 needed some ROE? I mean seriously, you're telling people what they can or can't do in a f**king game. That doesn't sound like the most absurd thing you've ever heard?
did anyone else think that indian scout would be a nice and reasonable guy. not the kind of guy that accuses people of being 12 year olds, no wonder our bf2roe is fucked up.
Personally i think it should b up to the admins of each server to make there own roe worked for every other game i ever had plus its them who shell out their hard erned beer tokens to rent overpriced servers u dont like there rules dont play on that server wow prob solve well thats my 2cents
Indian Scout can you reply to this more softened version? You must have some comments on the subject matter below aside from the former ascerbic tone.
1. Regarding the stats comparison system and the effect that leaderboards has had on this community, EA has officially terminated the stats comparing feature within its game as it has redirected the focus of the game from its orginal intent which is teamplay. Player's access to stats will be limited ingame exclusively to their own personal statistics and no others. Each player will have the ability to compare their stats to others on a strictly voluntary basis outside of the BFHQ or any service associated with EA. These comparison services will be available to players in the BF2 Community on third party programs and websites that will be able to pool these volunteers together for private leaderboards at their own descretion.
With this understanding we feel this revised system will open up a fresh and creative way for players, if interested, to compare themselves to other players in "customized" manners with wieghts and measures dictated by the parties dedicated to creating such a program. Since the comparisons will be community based and decentralised the popularity of these sites will depend entirely on the public opinion of the fairness of those particular sites and not the edict of a single corporation. We expect to see renewed interest in this aspect of the game on a global scale due to the fact that we are essentially giving this power back to our players and enriching their level of involvement outside of the actual game itself.
2. It will be the sole responsibility of server admins to monitor the behavior of the players using their respective servers. If an admin feels that a player is abusing a game mechanic and/or denying other players the ability to enjoy a fair game due to their own definition of "statspadding" we are sure that in the interest of upholding the server's reputation the moderators will see to it on their own time. This system has worked for many years in multiplayer environments and we expect it to do so for BF2 equally.
3. EA will not be responsible for the erasing of any of our customer's statistics from this point forward. Despite our best intentions the margin of error when factoring in falsified evidence, misuse of the reporting system, miscommunication, and additional errors is incalculable and the wrongful punishment of one innocent customer cannot be risked as it has in the past. Statistics no longer have a need to be attended to as they are now strictly proprietary. The third party programs and websites previously mentioned have the abillity to maintain their own credibility by denying access to those accounts they feel are misused.
1. Regarding the stats comparison system and the effect that leaderboards has had on this community, EA has officially terminated the stats comparing feature within its game as it has redirected the focus of the game from its orginal intent which is teamplay. Player's access to stats will be limited ingame exclusively to their own personal statistics and no others. Each player will have the ability to compare their stats to others on a strictly voluntary basis outside of the BFHQ or any service associated with EA. These comparison services will be available to players in the BF2 Community on third party programs and websites that will be able to pool these volunteers together for private leaderboards at their own descretion.
With this understanding we feel this revised system will open up a fresh and creative way for players, if interested, to compare themselves to other players in "customized" manners with wieghts and measures dictated by the parties dedicated to creating such a program. Since the comparisons will be community based and decentralised the popularity of these sites will depend entirely on the public opinion of the fairness of those particular sites and not the edict of a single corporation. We expect to see renewed interest in this aspect of the game on a global scale due to the fact that we are essentially giving this power back to our players and enriching their level of involvement outside of the actual game itself.
2. It will be the sole responsibility of server admins to monitor the behavior of the players using their respective servers. If an admin feels that a player is abusing a game mechanic and/or denying other players the ability to enjoy a fair game due to their own definition of "statspadding" we are sure that in the interest of upholding the server's reputation the moderators will see to it on their own time. This system has worked for many years in multiplayer environments and we expect it to do so for BF2 equally.
3. EA will not be responsible for the erasing of any of our customer's statistics from this point forward. Despite our best intentions the margin of error when factoring in falsified evidence, misuse of the reporting system, miscommunication, and additional errors is incalculable and the wrongful punishment of one innocent customer cannot be risked as it has in the past. Statistics no longer have a need to be attended to as they are now strictly proprietary. The third party programs and websites previously mentioned have the abillity to maintain their own credibility by denying access to those accounts they feel are misused.
I would just like to know if Medal of Honor Airborne will have a ROE, please know, I dont want the series fucked with like the BF series.BFROE|IndianScout wrote:
Alot of future games like 2142, Crysis, the new AA, QW:ET and more will all have ranking or honor systems, and most if not all will have an ROE in place, so it's something we all will have to get used too..2nDChancE wrote:
Ok, I'll indulge you IndianScout, but before I do, please enlighten us all on one point. Of the 250 or so mainsteam FPS titles released over the last 6 - 8 years, why did you feel BF2 needed some ROE? I mean seriously, you're telling people what they can or can't do in a f**king game. That doesn't sound like the most absurd thing you've ever heard?
Im sorry im gonna go off topic for just one second here, and give some real world example to the indian kid.
My Son I'm a dick!
Well, being a dick ain't so bad. See, there's three kinds of people: dicks, pussies, and assholes. Pussies think everyone can get along, and dicks just wanna fuck all the time without thinking it through. But then you got your assholes. And all the assholes want is to shit all over everything! So, pussies may get mad at dicks once in a while, because... pussies get fucked by dicks. But dicks also-fuck-assholes. And if they didn't fuck the assholes, you know what you'd get? You'd get your dick and your pussy all covered in shit!
You get the idea?
My Son I'm a dick!
Well, being a dick ain't so bad. See, there's three kinds of people: dicks, pussies, and assholes. Pussies think everyone can get along, and dicks just wanna fuck all the time without thinking it through. But then you got your assholes. And all the assholes want is to shit all over everything! So, pussies may get mad at dicks once in a while, because... pussies get fucked by dicks. But dicks also-fuck-assholes. And if they didn't fuck the assholes, you know what you'd get? You'd get your dick and your pussy all covered in shit!
You get the idea?
I am going to get so flamed for this...
I've never read the BFROE.
BUT - if it wasn't for certain ROE, some of which are probably admin specific suggestions, like "no attacking uncaps in vehicles"..."no TK'ing for vehicles"..."no offensive language"..."no hacks"..."no glitching"..."no stat padding"..."no spawn camping"..."keep the teams balanced and play fair"...
...I wouldn't have bought the game.
Seriously.
I started playing on a friends copy when I was around his house. Six months later I started-up again with a new house-mates copy while I was off work with bronchitis. It's only recently I bought myself a copy of BF2:Deluxe Edition.
In those early days, if all I'd been doing was standing on a carrier getting bombed, or spawning in the boat deck only to get hosed by an APC merrily sat in the entrance, or spawning in a Karkand alleyway only to appear with a gun already at my head, or getting constantly TK'ed for vehicles, or being constantly subjected to offensive language, or faced hackers and glitchers... I would have given-up in disgust.
Yeah sure, people are going rip into me for being a bleeding heart liberal hippie bastard or something.
Maybe. I play the game to have fun. If I had been denied having fun purely because the better players were ganging-up on me, I wouldn't have bothered. I've been bullied enough in my life, I don't need more of the same.
And thats where a kind of economics comes in.
If n00bz and l4m3rz like me cannot enjoy the game because of how vicious, cut-throat and intimidating the environment is, then we are not going to buy it and we are not going to play it.
If we don't play it... games are less populated.
If we don't buy it... EA and DICE suffer.
If not enough people are buying it or playing it... BF2 dies.
I was on both sides of the coin recently.
Wake Island, PLA. I was sat at the Beach waiting. And waiting. And waiting. I look at the scores and one guy whoring a J-10 had racked-up a horrendous number of kills. The USMC couldn't get off the carrier. I got so bored I tried taking pot-shots at him as he went to reload at the airfield. I finished the game with zero points. When the game restarted the same way, I left the server and looked for something else to do. Plenty of PLA were complaining about it too.
Mass destruction, Spetznaz. The Rebels advanced so strongly and quickly with such a massively unbalanced set of teams that we were spawning at the uncaps and being instantly killed. We had snipers deep behind us, attack choppers orbiting and blazing away, people just firing streams of rounds through the space where we would eventually spawn. It was boring. Eventually I stopped myself spawning so I wouldn't give anyone the kill and wouldn't get too many deaths. If the next round started the same way I would left the server and looked for something else to do. When asked about uncaps someone commented that ROE said they only had to stay out of the "red ring" or something.
If the game was like that all the time I'd not bother; that isn't fun. Sure 'all is fair in love and war' but...
I play the game for fun. I also try my hardest to make sure that my fun doesn't come at the expense of someone elses.
From what I can ascertain, that is why the ROE is there, to maximize the number of players who play the game by protecting their enjoyment of it and also EA/DICEs investment in it.
Okay. Flame away.
\\'
I've never read the BFROE.
BUT - if it wasn't for certain ROE, some of which are probably admin specific suggestions, like "no attacking uncaps in vehicles"..."no TK'ing for vehicles"..."no offensive language"..."no hacks"..."no glitching"..."no stat padding"..."no spawn camping"..."keep the teams balanced and play fair"...
...I wouldn't have bought the game.
Seriously.
I started playing on a friends copy when I was around his house. Six months later I started-up again with a new house-mates copy while I was off work with bronchitis. It's only recently I bought myself a copy of BF2:Deluxe Edition.
In those early days, if all I'd been doing was standing on a carrier getting bombed, or spawning in the boat deck only to get hosed by an APC merrily sat in the entrance, or spawning in a Karkand alleyway only to appear with a gun already at my head, or getting constantly TK'ed for vehicles, or being constantly subjected to offensive language, or faced hackers and glitchers... I would have given-up in disgust.
Yeah sure, people are going rip into me for being a bleeding heart liberal hippie bastard or something.
Maybe. I play the game to have fun. If I had been denied having fun purely because the better players were ganging-up on me, I wouldn't have bothered. I've been bullied enough in my life, I don't need more of the same.
And thats where a kind of economics comes in.
If n00bz and l4m3rz like me cannot enjoy the game because of how vicious, cut-throat and intimidating the environment is, then we are not going to buy it and we are not going to play it.
If we don't play it... games are less populated.
If we don't buy it... EA and DICE suffer.
If not enough people are buying it or playing it... BF2 dies.
I was on both sides of the coin recently.
Wake Island, PLA. I was sat at the Beach waiting. And waiting. And waiting. I look at the scores and one guy whoring a J-10 had racked-up a horrendous number of kills. The USMC couldn't get off the carrier. I got so bored I tried taking pot-shots at him as he went to reload at the airfield. I finished the game with zero points. When the game restarted the same way, I left the server and looked for something else to do. Plenty of PLA were complaining about it too.
Mass destruction, Spetznaz. The Rebels advanced so strongly and quickly with such a massively unbalanced set of teams that we were spawning at the uncaps and being instantly killed. We had snipers deep behind us, attack choppers orbiting and blazing away, people just firing streams of rounds through the space where we would eventually spawn. It was boring. Eventually I stopped myself spawning so I wouldn't give anyone the kill and wouldn't get too many deaths. If the next round started the same way I would left the server and looked for something else to do. When asked about uncaps someone commented that ROE said they only had to stay out of the "red ring" or something.
If the game was like that all the time I'd not bother; that isn't fun. Sure 'all is fair in love and war' but...
I play the game for fun. I also try my hardest to make sure that my fun doesn't come at the expense of someone elses.
From what I can ascertain, that is why the ROE is there, to maximize the number of players who play the game by protecting their enjoyment of it and also EA/DICEs investment in it.
Okay. Flame away.
\\'
Hey! thats our line!!
IndianScout, I just posted this to your BFROE pal SilentKnight in another forum...
Bottom line, the ROE is NOT binding unless EA formally notifies the users, and the only way I see that being possible is through the welcome splash screen when you login into the game. Until (if) EA does that, the ROE doesn't mean shit.* I'm all for getting rid of cheaters and hacks as well as having a healthy, fun, entertaining gaming experience as well. With that being said, cheaters and hacks are something completely different than someone that enjoys playing in infantry only or knife/pistol servers or drives into the water with his pal in a couple vodnicks to get repair points.
* My comments are directed at the ROE and those that created, support, and/or enforce it. And I say "enforce" with a grain of salt. Don't take my negative comments towards the ROE too personally.
* I agree the EULA allows EA/DICE to modify the agreement users agreed to when they installed the game, HOWEVER, neither BFROE nor BF2RS are employees, (sub)contractors, or official representatives of EA or DICE. To that end, any so-called official communications such as the ROE coming from BFROE or BF2RS is worthless. If EA/DICE wants to officially notify users of some "rules", they'll give an update on the splash screen in the game or something along those lines. The average Joe BF2 player does not frequent BF2 game forums, therefore wouldn't have a clue about this "ROE" document. [Like the guy that posted above]
* I see that IndianScout conspicuously added a brief response from a "Colin" [in the ROE], who apparently works for EA, that pistol/knife only servers are against EA's intent of how servers should be operated. EA is obviously going to try and satiate any organized group or effort that tries to promote its product when said promotion is beneficial to them. I think BF2RS was honestly trying to help the BF2 gaming community when it wrote the ROE, and I think the ROE, for the most part, is good. The last section about Blackhack whoring and telling admins they can make any rule, regardless of how absurd it may be, is a bunch of bullshit nonsense, but the rest if pretty good. Bottom line, EA indulged BF2RS, now BFROE, and gave them the tacit approval to make BF2RS feel better and somewhat legit, in their own eyes. Anyone that thinks otherwise is either stupid or blinded by their own ambitions, and I don't see you as the prior. Just don't let this ROE get to your head too much, because if it came to a court of law, the ROE doesn't even have a wooden leg to stand on.
I really don't have any animosity towards you or BFROE, I suppose it's more the principle than anything. If you really wanted to do something positive for the BF2 community, you'd go after the asshat admins instead of some knife/pistol lovers.
Why did they put stingers and mounted guns and tows in uncaps if your not allowed to attack them ?
I thought with the new patch infantary servers only where allowed ?
I agree glitching ,padding and hacking need to be sorted but leave everything else alone imho.
I thought with the new patch infantary servers only where allowed ?
I agree glitching ,padding and hacking need to be sorted but leave everything else alone imho.
You seem to be ignoring a very valid question:
Please respond to NASTY_BUTLER's revamped proposal.
Also.stryyker wrote:
IndianScout, please answer me this question; Inform me as to how you personally were able to gain the power to control other peoples gameplay.
Please respond to NASTY_BUTLER's revamped proposal.
spawnofthemist wrote:
You seem to be ignoring a very valid question:Also.stryyker wrote:
IndianScout, please answer me this question; Inform me as to how you personally were able to gain the power to control other peoples gameplay.
Please respond to NASTY_BUTLER's revamped proposal.
But in all reality, its all about this:
$
So far, I've seen EA come through once and shut a server down.
EA doesn't shut the KP servers down, because thats $99 less monthly money for them. There are about 200 KP servers. Now lets multiply 99x200. That's alot of money eh?
People can try to report servers, but to EA that means reporting a paying customer. That's why I think the K/P rule should be taken out of the ROE.
[/rant]
$
So far, I've seen EA come through once and shut a server down.
EA doesn't shut the KP servers down, because thats $99 less monthly money for them. There are about 200 KP servers. Now lets multiply 99x200. That's alot of money eh?
People can try to report servers, but to EA that means reporting a paying customer. That's why I think the K/P rule should be taken out of the ROE.
[/rant]
†FW†Ravenwolf wrote:
spawnofthemist wrote:
You seem to be ignoring a very valid question:Also.stryyker wrote:
IndianScout, please answer me this question; Inform me as to how you personally were able to gain the power to control other peoples gameplay.
Please respond to NASTY_BUTLER's revamped proposal.
We know you're out there.Colony wrote:
†FW†Ravenwolf wrote:
spawnofthemist wrote:
You seem to be ignoring a very valid question:
IndianScout, please answer me this question; Inform me as to how you personally were able to gain the power to control other peoples gameplay.
Also.
Please respond to NASTY_BUTLER's revamped proposal.
Last edited by PspRpg-7 (2006-07-21 05:26:46)
IndianScout you have an active BF2 acount you can show us?
http://bf2s.com/player/44116773/
I don't know if this is the REAL IndianScout though.
I don't know if this is the REAL IndianScout though.
Last edited by xstax981 (2006-07-21 05:31:09)
Yeah I saw that one but do you think it's him?xstax981 wrote:
http://bf2s.com/player/44116773/
Probably not
THis is pointless. What happened to all the other bitching. Now its "RULES ARE THERE ARE NO RULES!". ok....
A year of constant bitching, pissing, moaning and whining. Here we get the Indian on the forums and the best we get is moderate flames and a few sincere attempts.
Flame me....I dont mind.
Flaming Indian just shows him how juvenile this forum can get. How about taking this time to be constructive and take advantage of the opportunity? Novel idea huh?
And the whole TOP vs Indian thing....didn't start til Nasty got reset right? Did he break the ROE?
A year of constant bitching, pissing, moaning and whining. Here we get the Indian on the forums and the best we get is moderate flames and a few sincere attempts.
Flame me....I dont mind.
Flaming Indian just shows him how juvenile this forum can get. How about taking this time to be constructive and take advantage of the opportunity? Novel idea huh?
And the whole TOP vs Indian thing....didn't start til Nasty got reset right? Did he break the ROE?
Last edited by Mason4Assassin444 (2006-07-21 05:32:19)
Enrollment Date 2005-06-18 02:50:00xstax981 wrote:
Probably not
Last Battle On 2006-06-24 18:54:00
Total Playtime: 09:31:29
Nah probably not
Butler got reset the first time for having a high best round score due to black hawk whoring in the early patches. A legit score at the time earned in a typical round.Mason4Assassin444 wrote:
And the whole TOP vs Indian thing....didn't start til Nasty got reset right? Did he break the ROE?
The second time he got reset was for selling his account on ebay, well so what? EA cant take others making money off their game or something?
You will find that a very large amount of people have been reset for stupid reasons rather than stats padding or cheating, many of these people join TOP for this very reason.
Most of the time people are reset without warning and without being provided with a reason. Many of the reasons behind the resets are from isolated incidents from months back before there were rules.
Don’t flame TOP, back us, we are just the victims in this.
Last edited by Kobrakai (2006-07-21 05:44:55)
Perhaps he resets himself when he breaks the rules?Choumichel wrote:
Enrollment Date 2005-06-18 02:50:00xstax981 wrote:
Probably not
Last Battle On 2006-06-24 18:54:00
Total Playtime: 09:31:29
Nah probably not
THanKs for the info. I wasn't aware of details.Kobrakai wrote:
Butler got reset the first time for having a high best round score due to black hawk whoring in the early patches. A legit score at the time earned in a typical round.Mason4Assassin444 wrote:
And the whole TOP vs Indian thing....didn't start til Nasty got reset right? Did he break the ROE?
The second time he got reset was for selling his account on ebay, well so what? EA cant take others making money off their game or something?
You will find that a very large amount of people have been reset for stupid reasons rather than stats padding or cheating, many of these people join TOP for this very reason.
That said- Is IndianScout just the lighting rod for the ROE flames? Is he the single Robocop/Nemesis/Undertaker stalking the battlefields just looking in every crack of every map to reset players just because? No reason just because its something he enjoys? Or does the anominity of the internet and his roll as an ROE admin for Bf2 make a nasty combo which leads to him being the target of everyones venting when thier pissed?
This isn't intended to start flammage though I welcome it. I have admin my clan server and know thats a big enough pain in the ass. I damn sure couldn't deal with the shit Indian deals with.
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