BF2S Forums Should macros be considered cheating?

ChainSOV wrote:

what will you say if first mice with turbo-buttons appear? hey, its not a macro, its pure hardware

imho games should provide basic macro/scripting functionality like they were in good ol Q2/HL times where you could truly customise your controls to your needs and overcome the shortages of the provided interface.

a skillful player will always be better than some1 who uses macros for complex stuff, because he can adjust to situations, deviation and factors like lag.

This wouldn't even be a debate if that was the case Chain.  Tribes was one of the first FPS I played and scripting was the rage in that game.  I had scripts for all kinds of things including things requiring multiple keys.  But in that game, the scripting was built in and available to everyone without the need to go buy hardware with included 3rd party macro apps.

But this ability is not built into the game and is not encouraged by EA/Dice.  BTW, turbo buttons will not work without installing the software that comes with the mouse.

I mean, come on guys, you've all played consoles.  And I'm sure you've all seen or used the Turbo Macroific console controllers that all you to tie massive combos with the push of one button or rapid punch while holding one button.  Don't tell me you'd willingly go up against an opponent using one of these when you have only the standard controller.

Macros in this game are the same way.  Even if the only advantage is rested fingers because you don't have to push so many buttons, it is still an advantage over the guy who's fingers are worn to the nubs.  But that's not the case.  The macro can bind multiple keys together allowing you to concentrate on one thing instead of many, allowing you to pull off the key combination, in most cases faster, without error.

Last edited by sgt_mango333 (2006-05-31 05:13:43)

chuckle_hound wrote:

It's funny to think that gaming is the only "sport" where the use of helping aids is frowned on.

In running, you need some good shoes.  Often, between two players of equal skill it's their shoes that would make the difference.  The same in football, good grip is essential for ball control.

Tennis raquets, badminton, swimming trunks and caps, the whole lot gives people an edge when their normal skills can't get any further.  That's not to say a bad player can suddenly become godlike with a better monitor, mouse or even a set of weapon macros.  If this is a decent hack, then everyone who wants to be competitive will use it.  And eventually it'll be added to some sort of punkbuster blacklist or stopped in some official capacity.

(Additional thought for the day)

And it's not just macros that are stopped.  Let's say you buy a widescreen monitor to get a wide FOV.  That's the same as buying a better pair of trainers isn't it?  And yet most competitive online games don't let you alter the FOV so you lose a section of the top and bottom rather than gaining side views.  Is that really fair for the game maker to say that you can get a benefit from a faster graphics card or processor but not a wider monitor?

So that whole Congressional hearing not too long ago about steroid use in baseball was....?

bakeshow wrote:

Well, I gotta say, props to both sgtmango and EstebanRey.  I've read the first 50 posts of this debate, and a flame war has not erupted as it usually does.  I'm pleasantly surprised.

Back on topic, I don't view macros as cheats.  I don't use them either.  Simple reason, they're not looked for by PB.

So, I assume then, that when you meet Esteban in battle and he whips out his pistol, rapid fires 15 rounds to your chest with pin point accuracy, you won't have a problem with that?  Or maybe, while you're in a helo and getting owned by Esteban because all he has to do is push a single button and keep his reticle on you...that would be OK with you? 

Key binding is one thing.  Calling out commands on the commo rose is one thing.  But binding the keys together to do things that are not consistently repeatable is another.  Yes, I said consistently repeatable.  You may be able to rapid fire a mag in rapid succession once or even twice; if you're really good three times in a row.  You're hand will be so wiped out from the effort that it will become harder and harder for the manual player to continue to do this.  Same goes for the TV missle.  Obviously, this is not directed at those with bionic hands, that is a hardware issue

hmmm, didnt even know what a macro was untill these posts, and.......wait a sec.....









....no dont give a damn if anyone is using it

This is very simple.

The answer is no, and here are the reasons.

Macros don't mofify the game itself.  It doesn't change the code or the limitations of the game.  If a player has a macro that allows the player to spam DAO shots, but the game isn't modified and he's only spamming at the rate allowed by the game and by anybody else - in other words, if the ROF that everyone has to conform to is the same then it's not a cheat.  That's simple. Is it a cheat? No, it's not a cheat - he is conforming to the confines of the game set forth by the developer.  Calling it a cheat is just wrong

Is it an unfair advantage?

No it isn't, and here's why:

The developers have allowed for certain freedoms in the game (That is, anything that operates within the constraints and the spirit of the constraints set forth by the developers).  Everything else is up to individuals. Let's just look at the ability to fire rapidly since it's at the core of this issue.  Each of us may have different capabilities and inclinations towards handling a mouse (though in this case probably very slight). Some people are probably very good at controlling their rate of fire.. most of us are probably just ok.. and some of us are not ok at it (as with any other thing).  Now, it seems like people are mad because this program potentially lets people use the game to the maximum of the constraints while not forcing them to develop the physical skills to do so.  The test then for these people of skill must be who is physically capable of managing a keyboard the best without constriction.  I personally do not think this is true, because when you take this line of reasoning to it's logical conclusion a fair game necessitates that every person have identical keyboards and let the person with the best dexterity win.  Also this line of reasoning neglects that a certain portion of our community are people with disabilities; dexterity is not their strong suit.  The beauty of macros is that they allow people to mentally compete, and overcome handicaps. 

I don't know/care whether the person who started the original thread is handi-capped.  But i know that somebody operating within the constraints of the programming is not cheating, and I know that somebody who is heightening their ability to focus on their DECISION MAKING in game (which should be the test of who wins) without giving too much time to the physical aspects of keyboard/mouse manipulation is acting fairly

If I were to come up with a program that only I had and could use, this would be an unfair advantage (cheating).

Being that anyone and I mean anyone with a computer can map keys to do anything they want, the use of macros can not be considered being an unfair advantage.

Almost all new Mice, keyboards, joysticks, speed-pads and game pads all come with programs to setup game keys. However it is these little programs that the average computer user over looks when installing his or her new device. MS has come with this ability since dos 3.11, but most would rather try to keep others from using them so they won’t have to take the time to learn how to use macros themselves!


One last important note to make; the use of macros is a necessity to enable those with physical disabilities. Please don't assume everyone has five working fingers on both hands or even both hands!

Last edited by -=S8M=-Phoenix (2006-05-31 21:28:26)

EA TOS wrote:

Use or distribute “auto” software programs, “macro” software programs or other “cheat utility” software program or applications.

If you violate our Terms of Service, we may issue you a warning about the violation, or we may choose to immediately terminate any and all accounts that you have established. You acknowledge that EA Online is not required to provide you notice before terminating your Account, but it may choose to do so.

Thus you can prove someone is using 'macros' that 'automate' aspects of the game you are in breach of the TOS.  Which means they may wipe your stats.  Now proving this is a whole other story.

A macro that automates a prone, crouch, stand, shot can allow the individual to not appear above an obstical but can still shoot an intended target.  Yes you can do this manually but with the precision created by the macro can only be considered a cheat.  You are automating something that was not intended through the standard control bindings within the game.

PB doesn't care and it's basically impossible to report and prove individuals using macros, it's up to you if you want them to achieve an advantage, approx 75% of the community are against hardcore use of macros. 

Why not play the game as is would be my question.

As long as you have fun in game and don't wreck it for anyone else playing you arn't cheating.
Stat padders, go for it, I don't care, especially since there is little reason for K&P only servers anymore.

Defiance wrote:

sgt_mango333 wrote:

If you read part of the thread, you'd see that the guy is spamming the fire key for DAO with the push of a single button...

This isn't a peripheral issue or a key binding issue.

So? That's really just lazyness, it doesn't increase the fire rate of the dao and it's only a handicap on him.

If he shoots all his shots at once, you know what he is? Out of ammo.

If he shoots all his shots at once, you know what you are? Dead, so are the 5 other guys from your squad standing behind you

spacebandit72 wrote:

Well I voted no. Now before I get flamed... I think it would be OK under a condition! I would fall under the condition that handicapped people could use it! I have a form of MD that (check my stats) limits me on some things. I think a macro for rapid fire would help me be competitive. I cannot click the mouse fast enough.
I do OK but the only way to fix my KDR is to sit back and snipe. (that gets boring)
I have enough hours in the game now to know what I'm doing and realize I am limited.

I'm not handicapped to the point of being in a wheelchair or anything... I just can't compete in any sports at any level and my motor skills are just bad enough to be annoying. Doctor told me I could stay this way the rest of my life (which isn't that bad) or could be in a wheelchair by next year. They are not sure. strange.

Anyway, if I could improve... I would think a macro would be cheating or right on the edge.

This is a competitive game, it needs to be thought of in similar company to a 'sport'.  Everyone needs to be on a relative playing field, apart from hardware variations (videocard, cpu etc). 

In a competitive environment unfortunately not everyone in the world is the same.  But for it to remain so those competing against each other need to have the same rules.  It is no longer competitive if others have advantages based on automated processes.

Certain macros can create that advantage, although not all. 

By using macros you remove yourself from a partiular part of the community.

panderiz wrote:

spacebandit72 wrote:

Well I voted no. Now before I get flamed... I think it would be OK under a condition! I would fall under the condition that handicapped people could use it! I have a form of MD that (check my stats) limits me on some things. I think a macro for rapid fire would help me be competitive. I cannot click the mouse fast enough.
I do OK but the only way to fix my KDR is to sit back and snipe. (that gets boring)
I have enough hours in the game now to know what I'm doing and realize I am limited.

I'm not handicapped to the point of being in a wheelchair or anything... I just can't compete in any sports at any level and my motor skills are just bad enough to be annoying. Doctor told me I could stay this way the rest of my life (which isn't that bad) or could be in a wheelchair by next year. They are not sure. strange.

Anyway, if I could improve... I would think a macro would be cheating or right on the edge.

This is a competitive game, it needs to be thought of in similar company to a 'sport'.  Everyone needs to be on a relative playing field, apart from hardware variations (videocard, cpu etc). 

In a competitive environment unfortunately not everyone in the world is the same.  But for it to remain so those competing against each other need to have the same rules.  It is no longer competitive if others have advantages based on automated processes.

Certain macros can create that advantage, although not all. 

By using macros you remove yourself from a partiular part of the community.

For the record... I do not use macros. Don't even know how to get one. I was just giving my opinion. Every award medal...etc I have I earned by myself... no assistance.

panderiz wrote:

spacebandit72 wrote:

Well I voted no. Now before I get flamed... I think it would be OK under a condition! I would fall under the condition that handicapped people could use it! I have a form of MD that (check my stats) limits me on some things. I think a macro for rapid fire would help me be competitive. I cannot click the mouse fast enough.
I do OK but the only way to fix my KDR is to sit back and snipe. (that gets boring)
I have enough hours in the game now to know what I'm doing and realize I am limited.

I'm not handicapped to the point of being in a wheelchair or anything... I just can't compete in any sports at any level and my motor skills are just bad enough to be annoying. Doctor told me I could stay this way the rest of my life (which isn't that bad) or could be in a wheelchair by next year. They are not sure. strange.

Anyway, if I could improve... I would think a macro would be cheating or right on the edge.

This is a competitive game, it needs to be thought of in similar company to a 'sport'.  Everyone needs to be on a relative playing field, apart from hardware variations (videocard, cpu etc). 

In a competitive environment unfortunately not everyone in the world is the same.  But for it to remain so those competing against each other need to have the same rules.  It is no longer competitive if others have advantages based on automated processes.

Certain macros can create that advantage, although not all. 

By using macros you remove yourself from a partiular part of the community.

this is untrue.. read my above (long) post. the object of this game is definitively not to demonstrate physical skill. our internet gaming community is host to many, MANY people with disabilities. the whole appeal of internet gaming as opposed to physical gaming is that a good internet game, especially ones that rely on strategy and tactics and "big picture thinking" for victory, are a test of DECISION making process. I really don't care to test my ability to work a keyboard or mouse - that's not why i'm here. we compete against each other's minds. you have to be a fool not to recognize that.  i really don't care if people are able to automate key sequences - as long as the mechanics of operation are within the constraints of the game programming (in other words, if they can't fire more rapidly than the developers allow others). i really would not find fun in competition if what we were testing was the ability to work a mouse, or that only those with the ability to type quickly can win.  the whole point of a game like this, in terms of competition, is to test decision making and teamwork skills (which are really just a branch of decision making skills).

to even insinuate that people who use macros because they have a disability are "unfortunately" not recognizing and embracing that "not everyone in the world is the same" and saying that they have to "play by the same rules" is absurd.  It is absurd for a number of reasons.  Not the least of which are that macros are not illegal!.  But that's if you buy into your reasoning - which I do not. I reject your reasoning, again, because the point of this game should not be to weed out those with the best hand-eye co-ordination and ability to work a keyboard and mouse. it's the ability to think - anything that frees somebody with a disability or ANYTHING and allows them to fully compete with their mind, and pits me as a competitor against their mind - i totally welcome - so long as it is within the programming constraints that we all have to adapt to. it can only lead to the game being played at it's full potential - i welcome that whole heartedly.

Last edited by ComradeWho (2006-06-01 01:15:06)

TheDarkRaven wrote:

Defiance wrote:

Jussimies wrote:

Yes definitely macros are cheating, cause the you program your computer to do something. If you buy a new high-resolution mouse, keyboard or joystick, that ain't cheating cause you still play yourself and computer doesn't play for you.

By that logic, binding a key to open the chat box is cheating. You're programming the computer to do something, and that something is on said key press, open chat box.

OMGHAX!

No, because everyone has that ability and it offers you little to no advantage over anyone else.

you really think a macro can offer you no advantage?  how about macroing the c4 jump throw (when it was still possible to jump throw)?  if you've seen the volx videos you'll know he's a macro freak. hmmm...45,000 kills with c4...ya think maybe he macroed that?  and even if you assume that he didn't macro it, what if I who am not that skilled at the c4 jump throw were to macro it.  given how powerful that technique was (they changed the game because of it) would that be fair?

maybe cheating is a harsh word for using a macro because nobody has ever defined it as being illegal.  however, it does give you an unfair advantage over other players and is cheap by online gaming standard...especially if you're the top player and want your elite skills to be admired by all.