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unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,016|6266|USA

Dilbert_X wrote:

Funny how its only white people who need to apologise, when are the mongols going to say sorry and pay compensation?

What the Israelis and Chinese are doing is happening today, we need to stop worrying about what happened hundreds of years ago and deal with that now.
China and Israel have been criticized for stuff they're doing right now. We don't have the power to apologize for them, and obviously a lot of peace-loving liberals would prefer if they chill the heck out. It doesn't really have much use in an argument about slavery in Australia or whatever except as a whataboutism.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Its about priorities, what is happening now, not what happened in the past to people who are already dead.
Stuff that's happened in recent history reaches down generations. Weren't you one of the people acknowledging that COVID will be felt down family trees? What do priorities have to do with anything? Governments and churches can multitask, unlike someone on their own caught between important household chores.

Does your engineering company only ever do one thing at a time? Seems inefficient if you ask me.
uziq
Member
+491|2947
are you really suggesting indigenous families in canada or australia aren't affected by what happened 100 years ago? seriously?

most of the people involved in the homes in ireland are still alive.

don't you keep prattling on about jews being evil because of mythical conquests from the old testament? let it go, man. jericho was 2200 years ago!



unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,016|6266|USA

Which reminds me, some of my conservative friends are fractionally of Irish descent and love talking about that stuff. But the realization somehow soars completely over their heads. It's too delicious when one sick of hearing about historic racism against blacks starts talking about "Irish need not apply."
uziq
Member
+491|2947
the independent country of ireland was ran as a vassal state by the catholic church from the time of de valera onwards.

ireland had the highest proportion of institutionalized people of any western nation for most of the 20th century.

even in the 1990s young single mothers were sent into homes, sealed away, made into servants, and had their babies forcibly adopted.

dilbert: 'but it's in the past, we need to re-order our priorities, what jews are doing to palestinians in the middle-east is far more important for irish people. poor white people always have to apologize ...'
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,790|5601|eXtreme to the maX
What the catholics did is in fact in the past, jews are murdering children today and will be murdering children tomorrow - which is the priority now?
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+607|3214
Okay, a few hundred dead bodies probably isn't a good look but people only focus on the negative of these residential homes and never talk about the success stories.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
uziq
Member
+491|2947
the 1990s is not 'the past' and irrelevant. people are alive and want justice.

haven't YOU been fucking obsessed with wrongs and injustices your family/friends had to go through at the hands of the police? institutional corruption? you have been banging on about it for YEARS. you fucking hypocrite! when did those events transpire? the 1980s? jesus fucking christ.

i don't know if you are genuinely this autistic, but the way to solicit support for your point isn't to dismiss or minimize ALL other suffering in the world, dilbert. that's not how you convince people of israel's present problems. 'yeah your grandfather was raped and abused and is a wreck, but it happened in the past; have you heard of gaza?'

you are seriously mentally ill. you don't care about palestinian children, you fucking fruitcake. you are racist about non-whites and islamic people all the time. what have you ever done for palestinian children? i could almost understand why you'd wish to dismiss the suffering of, ehm, EVERYONE else in the world if you had tirelessly devoted your life to the palestinian cause. but you haven't. you've done nothing.

bizarre guy.
uziq
Member
+491|2947

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Okay, a few hundred dead bodies probably isn't a good look but people only focus on the negative of these residential homes and never talk about the success stories.
there are no success stories from those homes. innocent young women had their entire lives derailed because of catholic dogma. having children out of wedlock, like abortion, was basically a life sentence in ireland. they were put into homes and made into indentured servants, shamed and guilted, for most of their adult lives. WHAT success stories?

even families who would otherwise have raised a bastard between them had the child forcibly adopted and sent to a rape colony. great.

i sincerely beseech you to read the report and stop stanning for the catholic church in ireland. it is literally one of the biggest and most pressing issues in modern irish history. stop roleplaying a catholic like real-life is a subreddit. you don't even go to church. apologising for baby-murderers is not a good look.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,790|5601|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

the 1990s is not 'the past' and irrelevant. people are alive and want justice.

haven't YOU been fucking obsessed with wrongs and injustices your family/friends had to go through at the hands of the police? institutional corruption? you have been banging on about it for YEARS. you fucking hypocrite! when did those events transpire? the 1980s? jesus fucking christ.

i don't know if you are genuinely this autistic, but the way to solicit support for your point isn't to dismiss or minimize ALL other suffering in the world, dilbert. that's not how you convince people of israel's present problems. 'yeah your grandfather was raped and abused and is a wreck, but it happened in the past; have you heard of gaza?'

you are seriously mentally ill. you don't care about palestinian children, you fucking fruitcake. you are racist about non-whites and islamic people all the time. what have you ever done for palestinian children? i could almost understand why you'd wish to dismiss the suffering of, ehm, EVERYONE else in the world if you had tirelessly devoted your life to the palestinian cause. but you haven't. you've done nothing.

bizarre guy.
Well its funny, whenever a black man somewhere takes on the police and loses you're all over it, when the IDF are kneecapping children you deflect onto something else.

What have you done for blacks? You've moved to a country which doesn't have any.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2021-07-01 17:30:18)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+607|3214

uziq wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Okay, a few hundred dead bodies probably isn't a good look but people only focus on the negative of these residential homes and never talk about the success stories.
there are no success stories from those homes. innocent young women had their entire lives derailed because of catholic dogma. having children out of wedlock, like abortion, was basically a life sentence in ireland. they were put into homes and made into indentured servants, shamed and guilted, for most of their adult lives. WHAT success stories?

even families who would otherwise have raised a bastard between them had the child forcibly adopted and sent to a rape colony. great.

i sincerely beseech you to read the report and stop stanning for the catholic church in ireland. it is literally one of the biggest and most pressing issues in modern irish history. stop roleplaying a catholic like real-life is a subreddit. you don't even go to church. apologising for baby-murderers is not a good look.
I was talking about Canada and was mostly joking anyway.  "few hundred dead bodies probably isn't a good look".

I do think it is comical that Justin Trudeau and many Canadians are trying to blame all of the residential school abuse on the Catholic Church. Downplaying the role of the state and traditional Canadian culture in the residential home abuses.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
uziq
Member
+491|2947
Two-year stays were initially recommended as providing mothers with the best chance of spiritual ‘reformation’. Women who had a second child were regarded as incapable of reform, and were sent to a Magdalen home or a county home. The mother and baby institutions were conceived as places of moral welfare for ‘first offenders’, and the rehabilitation process involved mothers caring for their own children. According to the report, ‘there is no indication that any thought was given to the emotional consequences for mother or child of having a mother care for her infant only for them to part when the child was one or two years old.’ Or three, like Philomena Lee’s son. Some priests advised that first offenders should be ‘deeply impressed with sin’, since their natural feelings of shame and disgrace would soon pass. Others regarded the homes as glorified but necessary prisons.

[...]

f the 57,000 children born in the homes investigated by the commission about 9000 children (approximately 15 per cent) died. But a much higher percentage of those who died were born to private patients, who were able to pay their way out and who left their children in the inadequate care of the sisters in the homes. At Bessborough, 21 per cent of babies born to private patients died, though they accounted for only 9 per cent of admissions. As the report puts it, ‘in the years before 1960 mother and baby homes did not save the lives of “illegitimate” children; in fact, they appear to have significantly reduced their prospects of survival. The very high mortality rates were known to local and national authorities at the time and were recorded in official publications.’

[...]

This was quite apart from the problem that a Catholic baby might be adopted by a non-Catholic: ‘How can any Catholic logically demand or permit any legislation which would endanger the soul of a single child?’ I suppose if you really believe that you are condemning a child to excommunication from God’s family for all eternity this might make sense. But beliefs like these condemned children in Ireland to lifetimes of misery. It was fear of the ‘wrong sort’ of adoption that lay behind the forced repatriation of women who travelled to England to have their babies or of Irish women who were living in England when they got pregnant – a human rights violation if ever there was one. As the commission puts it, ‘the main motivation behind the British and Irish Catholic charities who were involved in repatriating Irish women from Britain, either pregnant or with their new-born infant, was to prevent these children being “lost” to Catholicism through adoption into Protestant families.’

And the fate of these children in Ireland? Some ended up in industrial schools, institutions for destitute children and orphans run by Catholic orders, in which, as the 2009 Ryan Commission established, physical, sexual and emotional abuse was endemic. Boarding out sometimes amounted to baby farming, as foster parents maximised their income from subsistence payments. Since payments for children ‘at nurse’ ceased when a child reached five, it was all too common for foster parents to return them to industrial schools at that age. They weren’t necessarily worse off in these schools: in 1957 one boarded-out child was discovered to be sleeping in an outhouse used to store potatoes. One witness to the commission recalled eating breakfast with his foster family, but every other meal, including Christmas dinner, he ate on his own in the back kitchen. There are stories of beatings and sexual abuse. When boarded-out children reached the age of fifteen they could be ‘hired out’, and several local authorities sent them to work in public laundries for no pay. In 1954 the Sisters of Mercy in Navan tried to maintain that a 15-year-old girl who was operating heavy laundry machines in return for her keep was in training, as though they were running a school for domestic economy. Some of these children may have been born to mothers who worked for years without pay in county homes, as payment in kind for their children being kept in foster care. None of this came free: mothers had to pay for their children to be uncared for.
it's quite literally despicable to defend this stuff because in your pharma-fried little imagination you think you're a devout catholic and catholicism is the hope of western civilization or whatever.

I do think it is comical that Justin Trudeau and many Canadians are trying to blame all of the residential school abuse on the Catholic Church. Downplaying the role of the state and traditional Canadian culture in the residential home abuses.
well that's rather the point. many 'secular' countries in the 20th century essentially outsourced public provision to religious orders, mostly the catholic church, who proceeded to commit atrocities with said 'state' authority. aren't you the one adverting for a 'return to christian values' or encouraging more involvement of the catholic church in public life? this is what happens dipshit!

Last edited by uziq (2021-07-01 17:37:17)

uziq
Member
+491|2947

Dilbert_X wrote:

uziq wrote:

the 1990s is not 'the past' and irrelevant. people are alive and want justice.

haven't YOU been fucking obsessed with wrongs and injustices your family/friends had to go through at the hands of the police? institutional corruption? you have been banging on about it for YEARS. you fucking hypocrite! when did those events transpire? the 1980s? jesus fucking christ.

i don't know if you are genuinely this autistic, but the way to solicit support for your point isn't to dismiss or minimize ALL other suffering in the world, dilbert. that's not how you convince people of israel's present problems. 'yeah your grandfather was raped and abused and is a wreck, but it happened in the past; have you heard of gaza?'

you are seriously mentally ill. you don't care about palestinian children, you fucking fruitcake. you are racist about non-whites and islamic people all the time. what have you ever done for palestinian children? i could almost understand why you'd wish to dismiss the suffering of, ehm, EVERYONE else in the world if you had tirelessly devoted your life to the palestinian cause. but you haven't. you've done nothing.

bizarre guy.
Well its funny, whenever a black man somewhere takes on the police and loses you're all over it, when the IDF are kneecapping children you deflect onto something else.

What have you done for blacks? You've moved to a country which doesn't have any.
you are absolutely hopeless. i've criticised israel any number of times.

raising it in every single discussion, about anything, is called a monomania. you are a kook.

in a 'religion' thread we can talk about the ills of christianity too, you know.

when have i 'deflected' away from a recognition that the IDF are killing children? show me a post. good luck!

i'm living abroad for a year to learn about some other cultures and places. oh noes! i've abandoned all of my social and political beliefs! i'm a fraud! taking a working holiday visa for 12 months is tantamount to renouncing everything i've said about the UK! i didn't do charity and community outreach for 3 years in my home city, nope!

talk about deflecting you still haven't explained what you've ever done for palestinians from your perch in perth. aren't you even opposed to refugees coming to australia? LOL.

Last edited by uziq (2021-07-01 17:45:53)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,790|5601|eXtreme to the maX
I'm fine with actual refugees coming to Australia, not migrants who don't like living amongst their peers.

Meanwhile in India, Indians don't like other Indians and wouldn't want their daughter marry one

Most Indians see themselves and their country as religiously tolerant but are against interfaith marriage, a survey from Pew Research Center has found.

People across different faiths in the country said stopping interfaith marriage was a "high priority" for them.

The research comes after laws were introduced in several Indian states criminalising interfaith love.

Pew interviewed 30,000 people across India in 17 languages for the study.

The interviewees were from 26 states and three federally administered territories.

According to the survey, 80% of the Muslims who were interviewed felt it was important to stop people from their community from marrying into another religion. Around 65% of Hindus felt the same.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57647931

But partitioning the country was the worst thing ever

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2021-07-01 19:23:23)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,016|6266|USA

Um, interfaith marriage can be problematic among different Christian churches alone. I wouldn't rate the prospects of a successful marriage between a devout Muslim and a Hindu too highly. It's not a very good metric, is it, something like using a blowout divorce between a baptist and a jay-dub as a core sample of wider societal stability.
uziq
Member
+491|2947
india has a caste system and a long history of periods of inter-faith conflict and inter-faith coexistence.

because of this fact, we cannot analyse or discuss the negative consequences of british rule or partition.

such as the – totally avoidable – and rushed through process, which was warned against by ex-viceroys and much of the colonial administrative establishment. which led to mass population displacement, famine, and wide-scale slaughter of groups on the road, particularly in the punjab.

but we can't discuss this because 'it happened a long time ago'.

you would have made a star history student. a real loss to the discipline.

Last edited by uziq (2021-07-01 20:07:21)

unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,016|6266|USA

Talking about any past events is of course a way to stick it to the white man, not to *checks notes* document events in the past and their effect on the present. Something that happened in 1993 might as well have happened in 1830 might as well have happened in 3000 BCE. Worthless subject! Eyes front only. Now there's gotta be a simplified formula lying around that we can reliably use to run everyone's lives.

Obviously.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,016|6266|USA

from upi archives 1995

Throughout the Kennedy years, he said, 'We operated on two premises that ultimately proved contradictory,' that the fall of South Vietnam to Communism would threaten the security of the United States and the Western World and that only the South Vietnamese could defend their nation and that the United States should limit its role to training and logistical support. McNamara, unsparing in his criticism of himself, wrote that, 'I had never visited Indochina, nor did I understand or appreciate its history, language, culture or values.' The same was true of all other top Kennedy advisers, he said. 'Worse, our government lacked experts for us to consult to compensate for our ignorance about Southeast Asia,' with the State Department's top Asian experts having been purged during the 'McCarthy hysteria of the 1950s.' Without good advice, the Kennedy team 'badly misread China's objectives and mistook its bellicose rhetoric to imply a drive' to take over the region. 'We also totally underestimated the nationalist aspect of Ho Chi Minh's movement' and instead saw him 'first as a Communist,' McNamara wrote. Had Kennedy lived, McNamara said, 'He would have pulled us out of Vietnam. He would have concluded that the South Vietnamese were incapable of defending themselves' and that it was unwise 'to try to offset the limitations of the South Vietnamese forces by sending U.S. combat troops on a large scale.'
https://www.upi.com/Archives/1995/04/09 … 797400000/

The history/culture retrospect is revisited in The Fog of War. A case could be made that with perhaps a better understanding of people, we could have avoided the Vietnam stuff, which is still felt by families today.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,790|5601|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

india has a caste system and a long history of periods of inter-faith conflict and inter-faith coexistence.

because of this fact, we cannot analyse or discuss the negative consequences of british rule or partition.

such as the – totally avoidable – and rushed through process, which was warned against by ex-viceroys and much of the colonial administrative establishment. which led to mass population displacement, famine, and wide-scale slaughter of groups on the road, particularly in the punjab.

but we can't discuss this because 'it happened a long time ago'.
But the creation of Israel is A-OK, we can't revisit it and we can only repeat the fictional jewish account of the history.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+491|2947

Dilbert_X wrote:

uziq wrote:

india has a caste system and a long history of periods of inter-faith conflict and inter-faith coexistence.

because of this fact, we cannot analyse or discuss the negative consequences of british rule or partition.

such as the – totally avoidable – and rushed through process, which was warned against by ex-viceroys and much of the colonial administrative establishment. which led to mass population displacement, famine, and wide-scale slaughter of groups on the road, particularly in the punjab.

but we can't discuss this because 'it happened a long time ago'.
But the creation of Israel is A-OK, we can't revisit it and we can only repeat the fictional jewish account of the history.
errrmm the british involvement in the mandate for palestine and creation of israel is a HUGE topic in historical discourse. people critique it ALL the time. it's one of the classical topics for colonialist studies.

you are arguing with straw men. you don't read history. 'only the white man has to apologize', 'no one criticises the creation of israel'. pick up a book for FUCK's sake. it's like arguing with a small petulant child.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,790|5601|eXtreme to the maX
I'm not talking about your dreary history essays, I'm talking about the actual world.

And why are you trying to pin the blame on the white man in the form of the British again? Zionism was a thing long before that and it wouldn't have mattered who was running the place, invasion having begun in earnest in the mid-1800s.

But of course we're supposed to believe the UN gave Palestine to the jews as reparations for the holocaust.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,016|6266|USA

Zionism in the 1800s is a topic for a history essay, though. I thought you were against history.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,790|5601|eXtreme to the maX

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Zionism in the 1800s is a topic for a history essay, though. I thought you were against history.
No it isn't, the UN gave Palestine to the jews as reparation for the holocaust, to say the jews spent decades planning to invade and slaughter every one in their path is the very definition of anti-semitism.

History doesn't come into it.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2021-07-01 21:17:10)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,016|6266|USA

I get that you're being sarcastic, but I don't get what you're on about. This stuff is front and center, even on wikipedia. Why is this history suddenly so important when so little of it is to you?
uziq
Member
+491|2947

Dilbert_X wrote:

I'm not talking about your dreary history essays, I'm talking about the actual world.

And why are you trying to pin the blame on the white man in the form of the British again? Zionism was a thing long before that and it wouldn't have mattered who was running the place, invasion having begun in earnest in the mid-1800s.

But of course we're supposed to believe the UN gave Palestine to the jews as reparations for the holocaust.
history is complex, it's not a binary choice between 'the UK did it' and 'zionists are to blame'.

many events coincide or have ramifications on one another to lead to any given state of affairs.

british (mis-)rule of her imperial dominions has contributed to any number of famines, sectarian violence, disputes over borders/territories/resources, etc. it could have been handled better; some times, it was actively, purposefully mismanaged; the discord and violence was part of the 'divide and rule' plan, as in the case of the maharajas in india, for example.

that doesn't remove agency from hindus or pakistanis today, or deny the very real history of zionism and its proponents. it's all part of the mixture.

amazing that one can't treat world history like a wolfram alpha equation.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+607|3214
The next time there is a terrorist attack committed by Muslims in the U.S. I wonder if liberals would be eager to watch some mosque burn.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg

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