Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX
Pretty well below the level of triviality.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6742|PNW

It's a take I see on things from slavery to genocide1. "Coulda been worse, happened long ago. Scarcely relevant!" It probably wasn't a trivial thing for people involved.

1Recently with Biden bringing attention to the Armenian genocide, contacts who barely think about the Turks suddenly start talking to me about important (strategic) alliances.

Germany seems to be fine with taking responsibility for its closet skeletons. It's probably time other countries do the same with theirs.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX
Wasn't the whole economic foundation of the country though.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6742|PNW

As far as the US is concerned, interesting points made here:

Was America Built By Slaves?
https://www.the-american-interest.com/2 … by-slaves/

in reference to a handful of books, one of which has been on my amazon list for awhile.

e: I couldn't recommend a number of these to some of my contacts anyway. They'd take one look and roll their eyes. Takes on slavery beyond "everyone was slaves" and "how far back do we go for reparations" seems strictly verboten in the lay, conservative community.
uziq
Member
+492|3422

Dilbert_X wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Interesting way to describe the destruction, corruption, and looting of Africa by European colonial powers.

TheY diDnT pRoDuCe AnYThiNg lAsTinG!

Or if they did, it doesn't count because they aren't from REAAL AFRICA.
Nothing at all related to what I said.

Between them did they put up a single stone building or road, not a single megastructure?

Did Europeans steal the great wall of africa? Nairobihenge? The hanging gardens of Zimbabwe?

I'm not sure what it is but they seem unable to work together to create something bigger than the individual or create for the future.
we stole the benin bronzes, actually, which are widely regarded as masterpieces. african art and the european 'encounter' with it inspired artists like picasso.
uziq
Member
+492|3422

Dilbert_X wrote:

At least the country wasn't built on slavery
australia literally has a litany of crimes and appropriations. you can hardly gloat over slavery when aboriginals were treated as second-class citizens for most of australia's history. the stolen generation? come on.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX

Dilbert_X wrote:

Between them did they put up a single stone building or road, not a single megastructure?
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uziq
Member
+492|3422
the benin bronzes decorated the fucking royal palace, you supermong. it's their equivalent of the elgin marbles or the parthenon frieze, which we consider a noteworthy classical structure and 'masterpiece' of civilization.

https://live.staticflickr.com/7372/10139418123_c56769cdbc_b.jpg

https://www.britishmuseum.org/sites/default/files/styles/uncropped_large/public/2020-06/Benin-Bronzes-1920.jpg?itok=fK7uN_pk

Last edited by uziq (2021-05-07 00:36:37)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

At least the country wasn't built on slavery
australia literally has a litany of crimes and appropriations. you can hardly gloat over slavery when aboriginals were treated as second-class citizens for most of australia's history. the stolen generation? come on.
No question treatment of the aboriginals was reprehensible, more comparable with American treatment of native Indians than slavery though.
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Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

the benin bronzes decorated the fucking royal palace, you supermong. it's their equivalent of the elgin marbles or the parthenon frieze, which we consider a noteworthy classical structure and 'masterpiece' of civilization.
I'm talking about structures, not decorations.

Where are the dams, aquaducts, roads, amphitheatres.

Even one megalithic structure would be nice.
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uziq
Member
+492|3422
er the fact they produced masterpiece-level metallurgical adornments for a ROYAL PALACE suggests they did create structures. you think they propped the decorations against a wall or something? use your head for fucksake.

the vast majority of ancient structures and 'wonders of the ancient world' have been lost. the mausoleum at halicarnassus or lighthouse of alexandria aren't there any more. i guess ancient hellenic civilization was worthless?

there are mega-civilizations in the far east that have left very little architectural record. it's as much about the environment and geography as their capabilities. we are only finding now through aerial LiDAR studies the extent of vast ancient civilizations in cambodia or central america. building structures out of locally available materials and contending with jungle will do that.

Last edited by uziq (2021-05-07 00:40:40)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX
Well people of that era did have sculptures etc for display in their yurt.

The point is Africa seems to have produced no large structures whatsoever at any time, nor did Australian aboriginals - eel traps are the only things I can think of.
No roads, canals etc.

At some point some peoples seem to have gained the ability to cooperate for the greater good in the long term beyond their own lifetime, or at least be directed by someone else with vision to do so.

I'd say some have a bit of a way to go yet.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

there are mega-civilizations in the far east that have left very little architectural record. it's as much about the environment and geography as their capabilities. we are only finding now through aerial LiDAR studies the extent of vast ancient civilizations in cambodia or central america. building structures out of locally available materials and contending with jungle will do that.
Still not Africa though, as far as I know there are not even significant earthworks of any kind.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3422

Dilbert_X wrote:

Well people of that era did have sculptures etc for display in their yurt.

The point is Africa seems to have produced no large structures whatsoever at any time, nor did Australian aboriginals - eel traps are the only things I can think of.
No roads, canals etc.

At some point some peoples seem to have gained the ability to cooperate for the greater good in the long term beyond their own lifetime, or at least be directed by someone else with vision to do so.

I'd say some have a bit of a way to go yet.
yes, right, the benin bronzes decorated a tribal hut. i think you might have to have your degree in african history re-marked.

another bizarro crank view about 'peoples developing the ability to cooperate'. you honestly sound pre-victorian. next you'll be telling us white people went to africa to civilize the savages and bring the heathens out of their darkness.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Still not Africa though, as far as I know there are not even significant earthworks of any kind.
The Royal Palace of Oba of Benin is notable as the home of the Oba of Benin and other royals.

The palace, built by Oba Ewedo (1255AD – 1280AD), is located at the heart of ancient City of Benin. It was rebuilt by Oba Eweka II (1914–1932) after the original building was destroyed during the 1897 war with the British.
you can't make this shit up.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6742|PNW

I'd like to add that Europeans were enslaving indigenous peoples in the Americas since the late 1400s, predating the trans-Atlantic African imports, and continuing well into the 18th century. South Carolina has a lot of documentation of indigenous slave exports to the Caribbean into the five figures, but the number was likely higher than reported. The whole thing was a mess, tribes (complicit or victimized) caught up in power games between the English and French for example. Vastly oversimplified, but w/e.

irt:

Dilbert_X wrote:

No question treatment of the aboriginals was reprehensible, more comparable with American treatment of native Indians than slavery though.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

The Royal Palace of Oba of Benin is notable as the home of the Oba of Benin and other royals.

The palace, built by Oba Ewedo (1255AD – 1280AD), is located at the heart of ancient City of Benin. It was rebuilt by Oba Eweka II (1914–1932) after the original building was destroyed during the 1897 war with the British.
you can't make this shit up.
It was rebuilt by Oba Eweka II (1914–1932) after the original building was destroyed during the 1897 war with the British.
https://www.worldatlas.com/r/w1200/upload/54/66/1f/shutterstock-1205811556.jpg

So they made a barn - but called it a palace.

Meanwhile, 4,000 years earlier in Egypt...

https://media.architecturaldigest.com/photos/58e2a407c0e88d1a6a20066b/2:1/w_1287,h_643,c_limit/Pyramid%20of%20Giza%201.jpg

https://img.traveltriangle.com/blog/wp-content/tr:w-700,h-400/uploads/2018/11/Temple-of-Hatshepsut.jpg
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uziq
Member
+492|3422
that's not the right building, dumbass.

no shit that stone buildings in a desert have lasted longer than buildings in the equatorial rainforests or jungles.

the question of why certain civilizations band together to build monoliths and others don't is an interesting one. but i don't think you're very interested in the actual anthropology or the whys and hows of it. you prefer to traduce ancient history into a paper-thin argument that props up your weird 'scientific racism' (as in, victorian race science). somehow i doubt you're really that invested in or impressed by the worldview or values of ancient egypt.

Last edited by uziq (2021-05-07 01:43:36)

Larssen
Member
+99|1857
I was about to write a big post on why sub saharan Africa didn't develop civilisations that would build a sistine chapel but all the required information is available online. As usual though, Dilbert chooses surface judgment and racism over structured argument.

The TLDR is that sub saharan Africa did not really have many things required for civilisational development, being:

(1) high population density, extremely important as a catalyst for development
(2) draught animals & other working animals necessary to develop solid trade routes, a healthy agricultural tradition, sustainable livestock
(3) access to the rest of civilisation's inventions, trade, exchange because of the sahara desert

Many books and articles have been written about this. Look them up.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3690
Africa does have some nice art.

Last edited by SuperJail Warden (2021-05-07 06:24:54)

https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX
All these arguments apply to South America though, yet they were able to build cities and empires.
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Larssen
Member
+99|1857
Dilbert, please, there are a great many resources out there that will help you examine all possible factors that helped society develop in one location but not others. There's many contextual factors to consider that really don't at all subscribe your notion of 'black=dumb'. We've been over this before. Just a few issues in this particular comparison: soil suitability for agriculture, climatological factors, availability of grains and roots that are easily cultivated, possibilities for food storage, necessity of city-formation vs rural community living... and again draught animals and population density (s-america had much more concentrated populations). At least the Incas also had llamas. But if we look at Saharan Africa and Northern Africa, quite a few developed societies emerged here and these were roughly at the same level of development as Europe for most of the middle ages. If not further. We all still know Timbuktu was a big deal back in the day, and surprise Dilbert it was full of black people.

The better question is what factors kickstarted the renaissance, because that was the moment European development supercharged and these countries technologically, artistically and organisationally outpaced all other peoples by leaps and bounds. It didn't happen because we suddenly developed some sort of 'smart gene' ~700 years ago. Evolution doesn't work that way. Your skin colour does not make you smarter.

Last edited by Larssen (2021-05-07 08:09:56)

uziq
Member
+492|3422

Dilbert_X wrote:

All these arguments apply to South America though, yet they were able to build cities and empires.
actually the civilizations of south america are characterized by many of the same limitations. there's a reason they never industrialized of their own accord or became 'advanced', effectively being superseded by european arrivals. larssen's post above gets close to the nub of it: a lack of draught animals or horses, coupled with precipitous terrain, was a major reason why the incans are consigned to history. llamas are not as useful as oxen or horses.

Last edited by uziq (2021-05-07 19:07:25)

Larssen
Member
+99|1857
What helped them get started are potatoes and the possibility of high altitude storage & freeze drying. If you don't have foods you can store for 12+ months in an unpredictable climate, your civilisation will fail at the first drought or monsoon rain destroying your crops.

Last edited by Larssen (2021-05-08 02:17:44)

SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3690
Imagine tearing down the accomplishments of Native Americans in order to make black Africans look better.

The Native Americans of modern day Latin America developed math, writing, advanced agriculture, and also built long-standing megastructures (in rainforest! (???)) Mexico City was larger than any city in Europe at the time the Spanish conquered it. And they did that in total isolation from the rest of the world.

Don't misunderstand what I am saying. I am not making an argument that black people are subhuman or something. But you don't need to tear down one group to lift another up.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
uziq
Member
+492|3422
nobody is tearing them down. we are saying that a civilisation has a material basis and constraints. the type of civs that developed in south america are obviously different from those in africa for reasons other than ‘racial intelligence’.

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