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unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,980|6109|USA

HollisHurlbut wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

That "so what" and "I don't care" paints a rather conclusive looking picture in terms of callous disregard and disconnect from the public.

What a lost cause.
Oh, please.  The "so what" is in response to your constant attempts to inject irrelevant points.  The "I don't care" simply refers to my level of giving-a-shit about being some kind of official BF2S use-of-force commentator.

You're really stretching here.
If your Atlanta friends really were so confused and distracted by their brass cleaning training that they forgot about the gunshot victim on the ground, they had no business being policemen in the first place.

Also,

hollis wrote:

I brought up the taser not being "significant" to illustrate their use, along side other less-lethal weapons, against Americans not even involved in a crime the past few weeks. That it's a bit much to present that as a "and that's why he was shot" without expecting a few raised eyebrows.
I don't care about your eyebrows.  Let me make this perfectly clear for you, in case the last three times weren't enough: what other people are doing a continent away has NOTHING AT ALL to do with whether or not shooting Brooks was reasonable.  What is it about that fact you don't understand?
Nothing in there is about you being a BF2S commentator.

Also, if you didn't care at all, you wouldn't be inserting yourself into this argumentation.

People are going to raise eyebrows at cops being violent, unpredictable, and inconsistent whether you care about their eyebrows or not, and regardless of how much you beat your chest about your so-called facts. We're in a problematic situation right now because of it (great timing in the middle of a pandemic too).

"Look at me, I'm so aloof that you'll have to pay me to commentate."

*replies sentence by sentence*
barf
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,778|5443|eXtreme to the maX
Anyway, I'd still say it was about 50:50, Brooks was dumb to fight the Police, the officer was dumb to shoot him.
Is being dumb a capital offence for either? I don't know.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+466|2789
the real problem for me isn't with brooks, because yes, clearly as i said in my first post, he made some incredibly bad choices.

my problem is why those two chodes are even out on duty with guns in the first place. any department with rigour and standards would have relieved them ages ago. they had been involved in a court case and had multiple public reports/complaints before this incident. they were manifestly not fit for duty.

if you unnecessarily shoot a member of the public once, that should be the end of your front-line cop career, imho.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|4695|London, England

Larssen wrote:

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

I needed a 4 year degree to even begin the process and certification to become a teacher which in the end requires a master's degree worth of work. Why is it acceptable that I have to go through all of that to talk to kids about World War 1 meanwhile people with the power of life and death on their hips can best be expected to get an associate's degree in a bull shit field like criminal justice?
Ask your union. Those requirements are barriers to entry designed to keep the number of qualified teachers down so wages can keep going up.
Educated teachers is a barrier to entry what
Yes, of course. Do you really think it requires a masters degree to teach first grade math? Desirable? Sure. Required? Of course not. Same for requiring 1,000 hours of training to apply for a cosmetology license. Does it really require 25 weeks of training and the laying out of tens of thousands of dollars to learn how to give people a manicure? Occupational licensing is always a barrier to entry. Sometimes, it is desirable, as in the case of doctors, but most times it just protects the already landed.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
uziq
Member
+466|2789
weren't you accusing the medical profession of being a bunch of crooks and racketeers at the height of your covid denialism phase?
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|4695|London, England

uziq wrote:

weren't you accusing the medical profession of being a bunch of crooks and racketeers at the height of your covid denialism phase?
They purposely keep the number of graduating doctors and the number of medical school slots low in order to keep the number of practicing doctors low. Saying that doctors should be trained is different from saying there should be more doctors.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,778|5443|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

the real problem for me isn't with brooks, because yes, clearly as i said in my first post, he made some incredibly bad choices.

my problem is why those two chodes are even out on duty with guns in the first place. any department with rigour and standards would have relieved them ages ago. they had been involved in a court case and had multiple public reports/complaints before this incident. they were manifestly not fit for duty.

if you unnecessarily shoot a member of the public once, that should be the end of your front-line cop career, imho.
The pool of quality people who want to be police officers is probably fairly shallow, I wouldn't want to have to go into the ghetto and deal with gangs of blacks twice my size, and its probably a whole lot easier to keep a 'trained' officer on the force than fire them and start again. Also police unions.

I think police corruption was mentioned.

In my direct and extensive experience of police and other corruption hiring smarter and better qualified officers just means their corruption is better designed and more effective.
That said you can't instill ethics into people in police academy and its definitely true that shit floats to the top and giving power to shit people brings out the shit in them.

You may think the US police are bad. I can say for a fact in the UK the police, the police complaints system, the prosecution service and the judiciary are all thoroughly corrupt and work corruptly in concert. The only plus is they aren't killing people in huge numbers, just the odd person here and there.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2020-06-22 06:40:54)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Larssen
Member
+91|1225

Jay wrote:

Larssen wrote:

Jay wrote:

Ask your union. Those requirements are barriers to entry designed to keep the number of qualified teachers down so wages can keep going up.
Educated teachers is a barrier to entry what
Yes, of course. Do you really think it requires a masters degree to teach first grade math? Desirable? Sure. Required? Of course not. Same for requiring 1,000 hours of training to apply for a cosmetology license. Does it really require 25 weeks of training and the laying out of tens of thousands of dollars to learn how to give people a manicure? Occupational licensing is always a barrier to entry. Sometimes, it is desirable, as in the case of doctors, but most times it just protects the already landed.
Well US highschool education appears to be abominable in a number of places and provably so considering how idiotically you all are handling this pandemic. From clapping in front of the homes of RNs in the first few weeks to some people now more or less denying it exists because it's taking too long, to people not understanding even the fundamentals of what research is or what government decision making should look like (hint: informed) - what a chaotic fucking mess.

I don't know exactly what the system is in the states but I doubt a teacher would be responsible for educating only first grade. I'm of the opinion that a higher education degree of sorts should be mandatory precisely because you want at least basically qualified teachers. Let's not also forget that teachers are often asked to comment on other fields and have to go through a lot of interactions - they're not robots spitting out algebra instructions. You sift out a great deal of total idiots and people who suffer from dunning kruger by simply requiring a degree of sorts. It's one of the few guaranteed measures of competence you have.


As for the medical field - much of it has to do with educational capacity as well. Medical practitioners require much more intensive, face to face and 1 on 1 training time than any other profession. It's very expensive as well due to equipment costs and bodies to practice on etc. Classes are often limited in size so that instructors can keep up.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-06-22 08:59:32)

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|4695|London, England

Larssen wrote:

Jay wrote:

Larssen wrote:


Educated teachers is a barrier to entry what
Yes, of course. Do you really think it requires a masters degree to teach first grade math? Desirable? Sure. Required? Of course not. Same for requiring 1,000 hours of training to apply for a cosmetology license. Does it really require 25 weeks of training and the laying out of tens of thousands of dollars to learn how to give people a manicure? Occupational licensing is always a barrier to entry. Sometimes, it is desirable, as in the case of doctors, but most times it just protects the already landed.
Well US highschool education appears to be abominable in a number of places and provably so considering how idiotically you all are handling this pandemic. From clapping in front of the homes of RNs in the first few weeks to some people now more or less denying it exists because it's taking too long, to people not understanding even the fundamentals of what research is or what government decision making should look like (hint: informed) - what a chaotic fucking mess.

I don't know exactly what the system is in the states but I doubt a teacher would be responsible for educating only first grade. I'm of the opinion that a higher education degree of sorts should be mandatory precisely because you want at least basically qualified teachers. Let's not also forget that teachers are often asked to comment on other fields and have to go through a lot of interactions - they're not robots spitting out algebra instructions. You sift out a great deal of total idiots and people who suffer from dunning kruger by simply requiring a degree of sorts. It's one of the few guaranteed measures of competence you have.


As for the medical field - much of it has to do with educational capacity as well. Medical practitioners require much more intensive, face to face and 1 on 1 training time than any other profession. It's very expensive as well due to equipment costs and bodies to practice on etc. Classes are often limited in size so that instructors can keep up.
Ok, you have no idea what you are talking about regarding the US education system.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Larssen
Member
+91|1225
How is anything in my second paragraph invalidated? It applies to any educational system anywhere. I know the first paragraph might hurt your feelings but let's not have that cloud our judgment now.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|4695|London, England

Larssen wrote:

How is anything in my second paragraph invalidated? It applies to any educational system anywhere. I know the first paragraph might hurt your feelings but let's not have that cloud our judgment now.
If someone is a fourth grade teacher, they teach fourth graders all day. If someone is a 6th grade history teacher, they teach 6th grade history all day, with the same textbook and the same lesson plan, all day. Odds are good they will teach the same subject and the same grade level for the duration of their career. They're not asked to go outside their competency, and no one is asking them their opinion. It requires about the same level of competency as running a mule team. They spend roughly 75-90% of their time trying to overcome stubborn obstinacy and stupidity, and the rest actually getting work done.

Last edited by Jay (2020-06-22 11:06:17)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+567|3057
When the kids are in the lunch rooms, bathrooms, and hallways, all of the social distancing measures will be meaningless.

It doesn't matter anymore anyway. Schools will reopen in the fall no matter how bad the virus is hurting people. At Trump's rally he said we have to reopen the schools. Since he said it Republicans will do it and everyone will follow along.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
HollisHurlbut
Member
+51|5335

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

If your Atlanta friends really were so confused and distracted by their brass cleaning training that they forgot about the gunshot victim on the ground, they had no business being policemen in the first place.
Again, this hasn't even been established.

Nothing in there is about you being a BF2S commentator.
Fine, chalk THAT one up to not caring about even more irrelevancies raised by you.  This is signified by the very nest sentence where I say what you said doesn't have anything to do with the Atlanta shooting.

Also, if you didn't care at all, you wouldn't be inserting yourself into this argumentation.
The fact that I don't care about irrelevant points or being an Official BF2S Use of Force Commentator does not indicate that I don't care at all about this topic as a whole.  It just means I don't care about those two things.

People are going to raise eyebrows at cops being violent, unpredictable, and inconsistent whether you care about their eyebrows or not, and regardless of how much you beat your chest about your so-called facts. We're in a problematic situation right now because of it (great timing in the middle of a pandemic too).
People can be as stupid and obstinate as they want to be.  They can ignore as many facts as they like.  They can insert whatever irrelevant "could have" suggestions as they like.  That doesn't mean that the calculation of reasonableness should change.  And it sure as shit doesn't mean that calculation should change after the fact.

"Look at me, I'm so aloof that you'll have to pay me to commentate."

*replies sentence by sentence*
barf
Stop making shit up.  I never insisted I should be paid to comment, only that if I was going to be obliged to comment on each and every use of force, some recompense would be in order.  Also, I suspect any person who thinks about the prospect for more than half a second would think it unlikely that any form of compensation would be forthcoming, and the most likely interpretation would be that I am not going to take up the responsibility of commenting on every use of force at all.

Last edited by HollisHurlbut (2020-06-22 13:22:51)

uziq
Member
+466|2789
you’re acting like the legal proof of reasonability is on a level with divine judgment, some sort of infallible and immutable law. i don’t think you have to look very far into jurisprudential discourse or sociology to see that the justice system is inherently, systemically stacked against certain peoples.

again, why are african americans the victims of over 2x as many police killings as whites? why are blacks disproportionately jailed for crimes which whites aren’t? why is your prison population overwhelmingly black in comparison to their proportion of total population?

you’re down in the literalist argument of proving their reasonability without considering who wields these standards, who possesses these proofs, and in which institutional and sociological contexts are they used?

the entire reason there have been irruptions of rioting and angst is because people are tired of your penal codes which always see the cops get off and the black teens buried or serving maximum custodial sentences.

i see two dipshit police officers who have shot a second member of the public, after they were dishonest over and plainly culpable for the first incident. i say enough of that shit. these goons are being entrusted with people’s lives, not the office pencil sharpener. i would lose my job over a much lesser incident than putting someone in an ICU. it is fucking ridiculous.

Last edited by uziq (2020-06-22 13:42:36)

Larssen
Member
+91|1225

Jay wrote:

Larssen wrote:

How is anything in my second paragraph invalidated? It applies to any educational system anywhere. I know the first paragraph might hurt your feelings but let's not have that cloud our judgment now.
If someone is a fourth grade teacher, they teach fourth graders all day. If someone is a 6th grade history teacher, they teach 6th grade history all day, with the same textbook and the same lesson plan, all day. Odds are good they will teach the same subject and the same grade level for the duration of their career. They're not asked to go outside their competency, and no one is asking them their opinion. It requires about the same level of competency as running a mule team. They spend roughly 75-90% of their time trying to overcome stubborn obstinacy and stupidity, and the rest actually getting work done.
Well fair enough, but how is that an argument for not wanting teachers to have at least a basic degree in the subject they teach?
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|4695|London, England

Larssen wrote:

Jay wrote:

Larssen wrote:

How is anything in my second paragraph invalidated? It applies to any educational system anywhere. I know the first paragraph might hurt your feelings but let's not have that cloud our judgment now.
If someone is a fourth grade teacher, they teach fourth graders all day. If someone is a 6th grade history teacher, they teach 6th grade history all day, with the same textbook and the same lesson plan, all day. Odds are good they will teach the same subject and the same grade level for the duration of their career. They're not asked to go outside their competency, and no one is asking them their opinion. It requires about the same level of competency as running a mule team. They spend roughly 75-90% of their time trying to overcome stubborn obstinacy and stupidity, and the rest actually getting work done.
Well fair enough, but how is that an argument for not wanting teachers to have at least a basic degree in the subject they teach?
It's not really necessary to hold an advanced degree when you're teaching basic subjects or overseeing a kindergarten class, is it? It doesn't take much skill to teach a kid to read. Patience, sure, but it doesn't require 6 years of higher education.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+567|3057
How many kids have you taught to read?
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|4695|London, England

SuperJail Warden wrote:

How many kids have you taught to read?
3, you?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+567|3057

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

How many kids have you taught to read?
3, you?
All of your kids know how to read? Even the unborn one?
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
uziq
Member
+466|2789
haha
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,944|5969|949

SuperJail Warden wrote:

That's not what I meant by boot camp style. I am talking more about the culture and environment. From what I understand it is a meat head locker room environment. I am not saying the thing needs to be like college but perhaps it should be more of an academic learning environment than an U.S. Army boot camp. We can't really be surprised when cops have an urban commando mindset when we use the same training system we train infantry for.

I keep making comparisons between my teacher training and certification and police stuff. It seems like police have built up a system that encourages a certain personality type while also discouraging more thoughtful people. And the results show.
https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confession … 14d17bc759
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|4695|London, England

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

How many kids have you taught to read?
3, you?
All of your kids know how to read? Even the unborn one?
Oldest son and my two youngest brothers.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+567|3057

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Jay wrote:


3, you?
All of your kids know how to read? Even the unborn one?
Oldest son and my two youngest brothers.
How old were you and why didn't your brothers learn at school?
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|4695|London, England

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:


All of your kids know how to read? Even the unborn one?
Oldest son and my two youngest brothers.
How old were you and why didn't your brothers learn at school?
I'm 10 and 14 years older than them. They, like my son, learned to read before kindergarten.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+567|3057

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

That's not what I meant by boot camp style. I am talking more about the culture and environment. From what I understand it is a meat head locker room environment. I am not saying the thing needs to be like college but perhaps it should be more of an academic learning environment than an U.S. Army boot camp. We can't really be surprised when cops have an urban commando mindset when we use the same training system we train infantry for.

I keep making comparisons between my teacher training and certification and police stuff. It seems like police have built up a system that encourages a certain personality type while also discouraging more thoughtful people. And the results show.
https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confession … 14d17bc759
All Cops Are Bastards. There I said the thing.

I honestly dread going through the process of becoming a cop especially the the boot camp part. I don't look forward to having to make friends, placate, and get along with pig men. Same reason why I wouldn't want to join a yacht club or motorcycle club or frat. I am not going to put myself into a situation to be bullied or hazed.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg

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