uziq
Member
+497|3712

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

19% to 34% is a big swing in terms of population. But has the size London's total white population been growing or shrinking? I mean are there in fact more total white people in existence or has the total number been decreasing? There being more minorities in existence doesn't mean the white population died off to make space for them.
The percentage compared to total population changed. The gross number doesn't really matter.
The gross number of people matters. More people of one group being born doesn't mean another group is being genocided.
there's also demographic changes at work in the geography of the city. whereas london's east-end was full of white working-class cockneys, doing the really shit jobs for the City, porters and dock workers and taxi-men and so forth, now those jobs are taken up by immigrant labour on even cheaper wages. the london white working-class moved out to the leafier suburbs and greener pastures of essex and haringey, to the north-east. have they been 'destroyed' by immigrants? no. they enjoy a better life and no longer live in slums in the inner city.

Last edited by uziq (2020-06-12 05:41:54)

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5618|London, England

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

19% to 34% is a big swing in terms of population. But has the size London's total white population been growing or shrinking? I mean are there in fact more total white people in existence or has the total number been decreasing? There being more minorities in existence doesn't mean the white population died off to make space for them.
The percentage compared to total population changed. The gross number doesn't really matter.
The gross number of people matters. More people of one group being born doesn't mean another group is being genocided.
If, in 1990 there were 100 people in London, 80 of them were white and 20 were not. If, in 2020 there were 150 people in London, 99 would be white and 51 would not be. Gross numbers always fluctuate. Percentage is what gives you the real feeling.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+643|3980

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Jay wrote:


The percentage compared to total population changed. The gross number doesn't really matter.
The gross number of people matters. More people of one group being born doesn't mean another group is being genocided.
If, in 1990 there were 100 people in London, 80 of them were white and 20 were not. If, in 2020 there were 150 people in London, 99 would be white and 51 would not be. Gross numbers always fluctuate. Percentage is what gives you the real feeling.
Feelings aren't reality. It may feel different but that wouldn't change the fact that there are more white people in total.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5618|London, England
Sigh. Ok.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
uziq
Member
+497|3712
we are basically arguing over why an old man might be more racist and reactionary, when that's pretty much just what old people do.

i don't agree with the premise that london has changed all that drastically in 50 years, let alone 20. monty python is a creation of a post-imperial, multi-ethnic society. they repeatedly made fun of the empire and based many of their skits on it. there's an entire episode of michael palin's 'ripping yarns' in which he is in a pith helmet and jodhpurs, for god's sake; and another when they are colonial officers at a manor house in the raj. british-pakistanis and british-indians were a thing in the 1970s.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6366|eXtreme to the maX

SuperJail Warden wrote:

I bet Dilbert doesn't help the black cats.
I used to have a black cat, greatest cat of all time.

https://i.imgur.com/3FWsFU7.jpg
Fuck Israel
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+643|3980

Dilbert_X wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

I bet Dilbert doesn't help the black cats.
I used to have a black cat, greatest cat of all time.

I almost got a black cat from a shelter that was so black you could only really see its eyes. It's name was Midnight which I just adored. I'm allergic to cats though. I do feed a stray cat that lives around the neighborhood that we named Porch Cat because it like to sit on the chairs on our porch.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
uziq
Member
+497|3712

Larssen wrote:

uziq wrote:

as i just said, the major waves of migration happened during his early adulthood. how could someone growing up and living in the london of the 1970s complain that it's 'no longer english' because the population of british-pakistanis has increased? guess he was just racist all along.

these aren't 'foreigners'. they are british people. they have been british subjects since the fucking 18th and 19th centuries. the national dish of the UK, voted as its favourite, is a curry. london has always been highly influenced by the raj. someone saying they 'don't recognise their country' anymore in 2020 really is fucking pushing it.
Same holds true for all the other former colonial empires in Europe - coincidentally the countries with the most active far right / anti immigrant political parties. France, Italy, Spain, the Netherlands - I know that you'd prefer to shrug it off as racists reappearing from the grave but there's a pretty direct correlation to the upswing of these movements and the effects of globalisation on (urban) society in these countries, most notably in the large increase in immigrant communities.
i wouldn't conflate post-imperialism and globalism in this way. formerly imperial subjects in most european countries (to my knowledge) were accorded the status of full citizens and rights to settle -- at least that's how it happened in the UK, more or less. they are not seen in the same way as itinerant labour brought over and under-cutting locals, which you would ascribe to the 'forces of globalisation' or 'the market'.

there's probably an overlap in post-imperial countries and now open labour market globalised societies because of the way their economies are still implicated in large part on those former, (now neo-) imperial relations and trade networks. but, for example, the complaint about a polish labourer in the UK in the 2000s is a very different complain to the one about waves of british-indians settling in the UK in the 1970s.

you're right that they both excite xenophobes. what's new?
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6366|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

i don't agree with the premise that london has changed all that drastically in 50 years, let alone 20. monty python is a creation of a post-imperial, multi-ethnic society. they repeatedly made fun of the empire and based many of their skits on it. there's an entire episode of michael palin's 'ripping yarns' in which he is in a pith helmet and jodhpurs, for god's sake; and another when they are colonial officers at a manor house in the raj. british-pakistanis and british-indians were a thing in the 1970s.
London has changed dramatically in 50 years.

Yes I'm sure the Cambridge footlights were thoroughly multicultural.


charity isn’t about the amounts you give
I'm sure they enjoy they enjoy being patronised, I thought you were the one who said what they needed most was redistribution of wealth?
Jump to it.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2020-06-12 06:42:14)

Fuck Israel
uziq
Member
+497|3712
i said the footlights were aware of the racial makeup of britain ca. 1970, not that they were a diverse bunch. with that said, a generation of caribbean and indian emigres has been to oxbridge by that point. it’s reflected in the broad cultural trend i discussed above.

my point being i don’t have wealth to redistribute that would make a meaningful difference. i’m happy paying taxes and agree with higher taxation in general. this isn’t exactly great critique, dilbert. you’re like one of those people laughing at protestors and accusing them of being empty because they get starbucks coffee in the morning. edifying stuff! ‘if you’re so left wing and charitable, why don’t you renounce all worldly possessions?!’

didn’t jay say this to you fucking five pages ago? and you laughed at his inanition? lmao. you’re going to have to try harder to string together a coherent thought, chap.

when’s the last time you were in london, again? weird how it’s always the white ex-pats who haven’t paid tax in two decades and live as IMMIGRANTS in other countries who have the loudest snores.

Last edited by uziq (2020-06-12 07:02:44)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6366|eXtreme to the maX
I'm not in favour of wealth redistribution, didn't I make it clear to Jay?
You are though, so what are you actually doing? The occasional chat with a poor person isn't really it.
Fuck Israel
uziq
Member
+497|3712
i'm in favour of lower inequality in society, yes, which means adjusting income tax bands not surrendering all of your personal possessions and becoming a Jain.

it's not complicated or controversial. the UK is the most unequal society in western europe.
Larssen
Member
+99|2148
uziq
Member
+497|3712
i don’t care about BLM or kendrick lamar.

ironically i spoke up about it because you poo poo’d the appearance of BLM-related graffiti outside of the US. but now you’re smug and satisfied that ... a bunch of new zealanders are protesting it?

can you make up your mind?

Last edited by uziq (2020-06-12 12:31:15)

Larssen
Member
+99|2148
They're protesting outside the US consulate, perfectly appropriate.

https://twitter.com/hiiipowers/status/1 … 3068781568

oh look here they are in the US
uziq
Member
+497|3712
so you're happy when BLM is internationalised and expressed in many contexts when they are quoting your liberal pet-like kendrick lamar.

but very sniffy and unhappy to see trains graffiti'd in your home city.

OK. i'll let you figure that out. i'm not bothered or unhappy to see protests anywhere, they're fully entitled to it.
Larssen
Member
+99|2148
victory, at last

uziq
Member
+497|3712
i'm still not sure what point you have ever been trying to make? that kendrick lamar is popular and influential? who has ever denied it? well done that in 15 days of global protests you can find some footage of people listening to some of the most popular rap music of the 21st century. what is your point?

i'm still not interested in kendrick lamar. i tried to listen to him years ago before you came along pretending to be some prophet, identifying with black culture.

i'm still quite sure that kendrick lamar's music being picked up and used in protests in new zealand is precisely what you originally complained about, about 'american cultural issues being imported 1:1', but there we are. maybe kendrick lamar was writing songs for new zealanders too? you seem awfully impressed and excited that other people listen to the same rap music as you.

Last edited by uziq (2020-06-12 13:03:32)

Larssen
Member
+99|2148
Come now I believe it's fairly obvious that I wrote about the import of the US context to protest against perceived racial inequality within one's own nation. A protest in front of the US consulate by what definitely sounds like Americans rather than kiwis does not strike me as anything resembling that. It's like international gatherings of diaspora when something happens in the home country, like hong kong émigrés marching in Europe during the protests there. That does not raise issue with me. A train running through Belgium graffiti'd with 'I can't breathe' has a very different message and meaning to it.

Accept your defeat graciously uzi
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,979|6892|949

larssen doesn't like displays of solidarity among the workers of the world.

Do you also drown cats in your leisure time?
uziq
Member
+497|3712
larssen's posts.

So apparently someone has graffitid 'I can't breathe' on a train in Belgium. I've heard flyers with these words were spread in London as well. Why do people insist on exporting this shit?
so apparently a bunch of new zealanders assembled en masse and started singing the lyrics of an african-american rapper who talks about growing up in los angeles. why do people insist on exporting this shit?

Oh i'm perfectly fine with protest about UK police violence in a UK context. I'm not fine with US social issues being exported to Europe. Crystal clear point.
but you're happy for people to protest in their own countries if they listen to a socially conscious US rapper who raps about the african-american experience? you're happy for people from other countries to assemble, so long as they do it outside the US embassy or consulate and direct their anger only at america? perhaps not such a crystal clear point.

you still haven't addressed really how all these struggles might be connected, and how a person in the UK or the netherlands might be given to (legitimate) anger and grievance by the killing of a black man in america. how the experiences are cognate, related. how western european countries have their own serious issues with systemic racism. no, you're annoyed that people say 'i can't breathe' in brussels. but apparently overjoyed when you hear kendrick lamar? make sense.

I also think it's a bit of a misreading - this is not a revolution. A venting of anger, yes, but no great insurrection. Much more has to happen for people to really rise up in a country.
lol whew. that one aged badly didn't it, what with the military being deployed to D.C. and now 15 straight nights of protest. just a temporary venting of anger guys! meanwhile MN is still turning out in large numbers to peacefully protest, statues have been toppled, new laws and legislations passed, police departments disbanded, senior police leaders resigning, the democrats 'took a knee', etc, etc.

seems to have been about as effective a period of civil disobedience and protest as anything seen since the mass mobilisations of the 1960s.

maybe check your posts and figure out what you think before you get breathless over kendrick lamar?

Last edited by uziq (2020-06-12 13:14:25)

SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+643|3980

Larssen wrote:

victory, at last

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSdGrwVdWNo
Infinity War was so bad. The comic version was darker, made more sense, and didn't result in a bunch of people saying "Thanos Was Right"
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Larssen
Member
+99|2148
When you say revolution I think 1789, 1848, 1917 etc. I think your judgment is clouded if this is to be termed a revolution.

There is no contradiction in my posts at all though I appreciate you digging back to find them.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-06-12 13:14:22)

SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+643|3980

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

larssen doesn't like displays of solidarity among the workers of the world.
Workers of the world go back to where you came from.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Larssen
Member
+99|2148

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Larssen wrote:

victory, at last

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSdGrwVdWNo
Infinity War was so bad. The comic version was darker, made more sense, and didn't result in a bunch of people saying "Thanos Was Right"
infinity war was one of the best marvel movies, certainly better than the sequel

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