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Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,634|4577|eXtreme to the maX
Simple majority for Brexit

Multiple subsequent votes confirming Brexit and giving Johnson a free hand.

Seems my barometer is better calibrated than yours.
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+188|1923
again with the confusing brexit with a 'deport brown people' line. what's the connection?
SuperJail Warden
Member
+214|2190
I think the amount of people who thought Brexit was a deport Islam vote was enough to edge out that 2% over 50. Same with Trump. Just enough people thought voting for him would get the neighbors deported to squeak out that win.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,634|4577|eXtreme to the maX
And Poles, people hated the Poles.

People saw the ECHR endlessly blocking the deportation of terrorists and criminals and got fed up with it.
Epstein didn't kill himself
SuperJail Warden
Member
+214|2190
Deporting Poles seems bizarre by American standards. In America a person fresh off the boat from Poland is much more American than a black from Alabama or Puerto Rican in NYC. I am pretty fond of Poles for what its worth. Polish Americans tend to be pretty down to Earth people. Polish women were also friendlier and more open to dating than Italians or Irish women growing up. My heart breaks for the plight of the British Poles or Polish Brits.
uziq
Member
+188|1923

Dilbert_X wrote:

And Poles, people hated the Poles.

People saw the ECHR endlessly blocking the deportation of terrorists and criminals and got fed up with it.
https://twitter.com/ColinBrowning14/sta … 25344?s=20

get rid of the poles! get rid of the annoying brown people who have been here since the 1970s and have nothing to do with europe!

but WTF don't make me queue at airport immigration!!!
uziq
Member
+188|1923

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Deporting Poles seems bizarre by American standards. In America a person fresh off the boat from Poland is much more American than a black from Alabama or Puerto Rican in NYC. I am pretty fond of Poles for what its worth. Polish Americans tend to be pretty down to Earth people. Polish women were also friendlier and more open to dating than Italians or Irish women growing up. My heart breaks for the plight of the British Poles or Polish Brits.
the polish have a long history with the UK, longer even than ww2, of which they served and cooperated with the british military very well. the polish air force were a crucial component in the RAF's defence of britain in the much-talked-about, forever-celebrated, tea-mug-friendly 'Battle of Britain'. but of course, dilbert hates poles too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Ai … d_Kingdom)

the 'problem' with poles has always been simple, off-the-shelf xenophobia, of the same provincial sort you'll see anywhere. they took jobs picking kale on farms in places like lincolnshire, in all weather, for below a wage that any british person would ever take (and the jobs were there for the taking; UK farmers were constantly complaining that they couldn't find anyone to do the work; and brexit think pieces/interviews were full of cautious landowners and agriculturalists saying, well, wouldn't it be nice and ideal if they could have an entirely english workforce, but ... cf. paying $1800 for an iphone that's made-in-americuh).

they have the same religion, more observant and more traditional, in fact, the same cultural mores, even the same skin colour (huge bonus!!!) they do not break the law or groom girls (dilbert's sweats abate); most poles who come over here will be highly educated, to degree level if not postgraduate, they'll have many of the advanced skills that our serviced-based economy in fact needs, and they speak several languages. about the greatest impact they'll have on a neighbourhood is opening a polish food mart so that they can get their own home-comforts food (that alien crop, unknown in the british isles, the potato ...)

there was a lot of cant in the tabloids 10 years ago or so about how polish builders and plumbers deflated the british labour market and ruined the livelihoods of hard-working british tradespeople (so much for the spirit of deregulation and the market, eh). those tradespeople enjoy average salaries of like £50-60k, significantly higher than most university graduates, in fact. typical bullshit.
https://www.simplybusiness.co.uk/knowle … graduates/

what it comes down to isn't that the polish have damaged natives' ability to earn, or to go about their lives as before; it comes down to people not liking shops with strange names, or hearing a different accent or language on the bus.

Last edited by uziq (2020-02-14 04:04:19)

SuperJail Warden
Member
+214|2190

Uzi wrote:

There was a lot of cant in the tabloids 10 years ago or so about how polish builders and plumbers deflated the british labour market and ruined the livelihoods of hard-working british tradespeople (so much for the spirit of deregulation and the market, eh). those tradespeople enjoy average salaries of like £50-60k, significantly higher than most university graduates, in fact. typical bullshit.
Interestingly in 2016 Clinton won the educated and low income vote. Trump won the low education and higher income vote. A lot of blue collar people do pretty well for themselves. The car techs I used to work can take home more money than me every two weeks if they hustle. I get a pension and a comfortable job though.


I have a pretty low opinion of blue collar workers despite getting through college that way. They are usually as ignorant as you expect. They also think about college educated and white collar workers more than the others think about them.
https://i.redd.it/p2fajdklsevz.jpg
My hands never looked like this because I was smart enough to wear disposable gloves.
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61V7b4GsGyL._AC_SX466_.jpg
uziq
Member
+188|1923
yeah in this case it was a bunch of self-employed/small business owners, who fleece the state their tax and write off as much as possible for deductions, small business owners being given immense tax privileges by the govt (to say nothing of the casual fadging of work, nicking and reselling of building supplies, ripping off old people, etc) complaining vociferously about new tradespeople from poland or the czech republic or whatever coming over and competing for the same work.

these people live the life of riley. bricklayers in london making nearly £100k a year. and they’ve all got rolled up copies of The Sun or the Daily Mail on the dashes of their white vans, decrying this that and the other about foreigners.

it’s the worst sort of blue-collar, the jay brand attitudes that only want to look after their own narrow self-interest and have all sorts of unreconstructed negative views about anyone different (that goes for your favourites, homosexuals, as much as it does about anyone else; in fact they’re probably as suspicious of people who don’t like football as anything else). i’m pretty sure that this sort of on-the-make tradesman would utterly balk at the idea of paying more tax to found an NHS, if it was proposed for the first time today.

but dilbert will gloss it as ‘people were mad about poles’. the people, that is, who would refuse to take labourer work picking fruits or vegetables for the wages those jobs command; the people who would rather sit on their arses and expect welfare, taking more interest in x factor than national politics; the people who just want to protect their own small businesses from any sort of competition. these people who buy cheap food, cheap clothes, and enjoy every other convenience because of the exact same international labour market. pity the poor natives!

there’s a great book by richard hoggart, very influential piece of 20th century sociology, called ‘the uses of literacy’. it’s not really about education or literacy per se, it’s about the social attitudes and values, the ‘class consciousness’ if you will, of the working class, historically and now. he talks a lot about the attitudes in the northern industrial towns of workers towards owners, workers towards each other, etc. it’s incredibly insightful. the whole culture of slightly bodging the job and having a few pallets of that fancy tile for yourself to sell down the pub, etc. and then some populist-brown noser like dilbert comes along and makes out ‘the people’ to be these victims, assailed by barbarians from without. yeah fucking right. bearing in mind he’s the same guy who will encourage jay to move somewhere else and take action. but the white brit is supposed to be preserved like some non-migratory bird on a reserve.

Last edited by uziq (2020-02-14 06:57:11)

unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,758|5242|USA

@macbeth

To be fair, working with some machinery with gloves on would be idiotic. But that kind of meme is cringe.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,634|4577|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

yeah in this case it was a bunch of self-employed/small business owners, who fleece the state their tax and write off as much as possible for deductions, small business owners being given immense tax privileges by the govt (to say nothing of the casual fadging of work, nicking and reselling of building supplies, ripping off old people, etc) complaining vociferously about new tradespeople from poland or the czech republic or whatever coming over and competing for the same work.
I'm sure you won't be claiming your Macbook and screen as business expenses, you know on principle so there's more money for the NHS.

these people live the life of riley. bricklayers in london making nearly £100k a year. and they’ve all got rolled up copies of The Sun or the Daily Mail on the dashes of their white vans, decrying this that and the other about foreigners.
You have a problem with people who work hand and will likely be physically ruined at 40 earning high wages?
I bet you've never done anything more strenuous than a light jog, let alone a 12 hour work day more arduous than circuit training.
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+188|1923
i have never claimed any of my tech as expenses. i make a full salary. bizarre comment.

i don’t have any problem with them earning high wages. i have a problem with them being racist to people who want to improve their own lives. last time i checked you were attacking jay for almost all of the same views. it’s funny how when it suits your racist, nativist agenda then all of the protectionism, relying on the state and narrowmindedness are A-OK.

voting to leave the EU ‘because of the poles’ or because of pakistani grooming gangs is immensely stupid. none of it makes any sense whatsoever. indeed, the standard line now is that ‘people are willing to make irrational choices in terms of cost-benefit, choices to their own detriment, for something “they believe in”’. that’s a euphemism for a prejudice. for belief, read ‘that england should only be for the english’. yeah, i have a problem with that vision, not with bricklayers making a good wage. it’s their stupid and nonsensical defenses for their pig-ignorant views. a pole never made an english plumber any poorer, let me tell you.

it’s also not my fault that i tried in school and have a comfortable job. since when was the nerdy target-shooting mummies boy a gritty lumpenprole with a sympathy for hard graft?

Last edited by uziq (2020-02-15 01:17:47)

unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,758|5242|USA

It's possible to respect the worth of someone's job skills while at the same time questioning their political viewpoints. Thank you for the prime roofing job, mister. But I don't think the gays should be lined up and shot.
uziq
Member
+188|1923
i have absolutely no problem with people doing jobs that are, after all, absolutely essential to society. they are good jobs. i am happy that they command such high wages in the current labour market.

but to complain about foreign builders and competition and to basically vote for politicians to enact nativist/protectionist policies, is a social attitude that i cannot endorse. it's just ironic that they earn significantly more than university graduates whilst touting these narrow arguments of 'foreigners taking our jobs', whereas the 'educated' cosmopolitan classes make 1/2 their wages without the spiteful xenophobia.

i'm not going to respect someone for subjecting themselves to body-breaking labour. very few tradespeople want their own kids to go into it. why should i venerate their career path, just because? it's just like macbeth says above: the chip on the shoulder and the obsession with comparison, status, commanding respect, is mostly a blue-collar thing.

Last edited by uziq (2020-02-15 02:38:54)

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,968|3829|London, England

uziq wrote:

i have never claimed any of my tech as expenses. i make a full salary. bizarre comment.

i don’t have any problem with them earning high wages. i have a problem with them being racist to people who want to improve their own lives. last time i checked you were attacking jay for almost all of the same views. it’s funny how when it suits your racist, nativist agenda then all of the protectionism, relying on the state and narrowmindedness are A-OK.

voting to leave the EU ‘because of the poles’ or because of pakistani grooming gangs is immensely stupid. none of it makes any sense whatsoever. indeed, the standard line now is that ‘people are willing to make irrational choices in terms of cost-benefit, choices to their own detriment, for something “they believe in”’. that’s a euphemism for a prejudice. for belief, read ‘that england should only be for the english’. yeah, i have a problem with that vision, not with bricklayers making a good wage. it’s their stupid and nonsensical defenses for their pig-ignorant views. a pole never made an english plumber any poorer, let me tell you.

it’s also not my fault that i tried in school and have a comfortable job. since when was the nerdy target-shooting mummies boy a gritty lumpenprole with a sympathy for hard graft?
Why is it that everyone that disagrees with progressive ideology like you espouse is labeled a closed minded racist? The word has lost all meaning at this point from overuse. I'd call people who obsess over diversity quotas based on superficial traits racist, but what do I know? I'd bet money that my circle of friends and acquaintances is far more diverse than yours, but I'm the closed minded racist You always were a joke.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,758|5242|USA

uziq wrote:

i have absolutely no problem with ---------
Right. That was more to follow up dilbert. Back-breaking, hand-eating trades shouldn't be used to gatekeep man cards or whatever. And attacks on a blue collar man's political opinions shouldn't be transmogrified into some condemnation of their trade. It's weak. I've seen and dealt with these ugly attitudes in person. Why should an accomplished programmer, accountant, or someone who's been through years of medical school and residency be less worthy because they don't have calloused skin.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,968|3829|London, England

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

uziq wrote:

i have absolutely no problem with ---------
Right. That was more to follow up dilbert. Back-breaking, hand-eating trades shouldn't be used to gatekeep man cards or whatever. And attacks on a blue collar man's political opinions shouldn't be transmogrified into some condemnation of their trade. It's weak. I've seen and dealt with these ugly attitudes in person. Why should an accomplished programmer, accountant, or someone who's been through years of medical school and residency be less worthy because they don't have calloused skin.
Pain tolerance and stoicism have been associated with manliness for millenia. It's at the heart of why so many office workers are obsessive gym rats. Blue collar guys rarely go to the gym. All trying to live up to the ideal. Some do it at work, some after.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
uziq
Member
+188|1923

Jay wrote:

uziq wrote:

i have never claimed any of my tech as expenses. i make a full salary. bizarre comment.

i don’t have any problem with them earning high wages. i have a problem with them being racist to people who want to improve their own lives. last time i checked you were attacking jay for almost all of the same views. it’s funny how when it suits your racist, nativist agenda then all of the protectionism, relying on the state and narrowmindedness are A-OK.

voting to leave the EU ‘because of the poles’ or because of pakistani grooming gangs is immensely stupid. none of it makes any sense whatsoever. indeed, the standard line now is that ‘people are willing to make irrational choices in terms of cost-benefit, choices to their own detriment, for something “they believe in”’. that’s a euphemism for a prejudice. for belief, read ‘that england should only be for the english’. yeah, i have a problem with that vision, not with bricklayers making a good wage. it’s their stupid and nonsensical defenses for their pig-ignorant views. a pole never made an english plumber any poorer, let me tell you.

it’s also not my fault that i tried in school and have a comfortable job. since when was the nerdy target-shooting mummies boy a gritty lumpenprole with a sympathy for hard graft?
Why is it that everyone that disagrees with progressive ideology like you espouse is labeled a closed minded racist? The word has lost all meaning at this point from overuse. I'd call people who obsess over diversity quotas based on superficial traits racist, but what do I know? I'd bet money that my circle of friends and acquaintances is far more diverse than yours, but I'm the closed minded racist You always were a joke.
i was referring to dilbert's 'people in the UK got sick of poles', which was a tabloid trope in the 2000s, amongst much scare-mongering about how british workers would be wiped out. well, evidently that never happened. it was a matter of xenophobia more than anything else. don't comment on a discussion when you know absolutely nothing about the context and background.

also are we really going to have a 'who has the most diverse friend group' competition? lol. that's a good way of adducing something. i've lived in multi-ethnic households for a large part of my 20s. i've had long-term relationships with and got to know the families of people from different backgrounds than my own. congrats on working for a company that is legally obliged to have non-discriminatory hiring practices, though! i'm very happy for you. though i'm detecting a little suppressed rage in your 'quotas' comment. are you sure they're your acquaintances, jay?

Last edited by uziq (2020-02-15 03:46:37)

unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,758|5242|USA

Jay wrote:

Pain tolerance and stoicism have been associated with manliness for millenia. It's at the heart of why so many office workers are obsessive gym rats. Blue collar guys rarely go to the gym. All trying to live up to the ideal. Some do it at work, some after.
Not fancying disease from a sedentary lifestyle, I would probably be a gym rat if I was locked into a desk job. That isn't to say that I'd routinely run sandpaper over my hands and face to live up to some grizzled comic book body image.
uziq
Member
+188|1923

Jay wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

uziq wrote:

i have absolutely no problem with ---------
Right. That was more to follow up dilbert. Back-breaking, hand-eating trades shouldn't be used to gatekeep man cards or whatever. And attacks on a blue collar man's political opinions shouldn't be transmogrified into some condemnation of their trade. It's weak. I've seen and dealt with these ugly attitudes in person. Why should an accomplished programmer, accountant, or someone who's been through years of medical school and residency be less worthy because they don't have calloused skin.
Pain tolerance and stoicism have been associated with manliness for millenia. It's at the heart of why so many office workers are obsessive gym rats. Blue collar guys rarely go to the gym. All trying to live up to the ideal. Some do it at work, some after.
yeah office workers go to the gym because they feel insecure around scaffolders and want to live up to ancient martial ideals.

it can't possibly be because office and sedentary lifestyles are bad for your health in the long-term, and they want to look after their basic health. nope. they want to develop manly 'pain tolerance'. ug ug ug, krang lift rock

Last edited by uziq (2020-02-15 03:48:05)

unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,758|5242|USA

To be fair, pain tolerance (and target shooting) might come in handy at those office worker paintball events that seem to happen all the time in sitcoms.
uziq
Member
+188|1923
i went paintballing last month. it wasn't because we were out for fun, it was *checks notes* because we are emasculated middle-class phoneys seeking to reconnect with true manliness, having been castrated by our comfortable jobs.

Last edited by uziq (2020-02-15 04:31:06)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,634|4577|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

i don’t have any problem with them earning high wages. i have a problem with them being racist to people who want to improve their own lives. last time i checked you were attacking jay for almost all of the same views. it’s funny how when it suits your racist, nativist agenda then all of the protectionism, relying on the state and narrowmindedness are A-OK.
Wait a minute, aren't you the one complaining about your industry being disrupted?
How much time spent ranting about Amazon destroying the publishing industry?

I suppose its OK for you to sneer at the uneducated manual worker when they want to protect their livelihoods, not so funny when it happens to someone as intellectual and deserving as you.

You can babble all you like about your progressive theories - you're wrong every time. The UK voted repeatedly for Brexit and isolationism and four years on you can't accept or rationalise it, the US voted for Trump and isolationism and will likely win a second term as the Dems tie themselves in knots over womens quotas and allwoing the mentally ill to pick their lavatory.
Once again, every other country in the world practices isolationism, racist supremacy etc. Thats the way it is, bad luck.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2020-02-15 04:45:29)

Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+188|1923
amazon hasn't really affected the publishing industry. they decimated booksellers and bookstores, brick-and-mortars. yes, publishers have to enter into a compact with the devil with them, and pretty much dance to their tune, but it's afforded as many opportunities (reach being the main one in lieu of massive marketing budgets) as drawbacks. my criticism of amazon is the same criticism as any sort of platform capitalism, in which companies are underwritten by huge investment and operate at massive losses for 5-10 years, playing the long-game. it's uncompetitive and creates oligopolies.

the original prediction, that amazon and ebooks would smash publishing to smithereens, has been disproven. ebooks sales are falling and print is actually back up. publishers quickly signed deals with amazon to sell their ebooks on kindle, which are, suffice to say, massively profitable compared to actually producing physical print (and actually pay more to authors as a percentage of total revenue).

sorry but that's 2-for-2 you've tried to catch me out as a hypocrite and failed utterly.

can you now explain why poles are bad?

Last edited by uziq (2020-02-15 04:44:35)

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,968|3829|London, England

uziq wrote:

i went paintballing last month. it wasn't because we were out for fun, it was *checks notes* because we are emasculated middle-class phoneys seeking to reconnect with true manliness, having been castrated by our comfortable jobs.
Shifty is a bigger man than you. He plays airsoft.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

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