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Simple majority for Brexit

Multiple subsequent votes confirming Brexit and giving Johnson a free hand.

Seems my barometer is better calibrated than yours.

I think the amount of people who thought Brexit was a deport Islam vote was enough to edge out that 2% over 50. Same with Trump. Just enough people thought voting for him would get the neighbors deported to squeak out that win.

Deporting Poles seems bizarre by American standards. In America a person fresh off the boat from Poland is much more American than a black from Alabama or Puerto Rican in NYC. I am pretty fond of Poles for what its worth. Polish Americans tend to be pretty down to Earth people. Polish women were also friendlier and more open to dating than Italians or Irish women growing up. My heart breaks for the plight of the British Poles or Polish Brits.

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Deporting Poles seems bizarre by American standards. In America a person fresh off the boat from Poland is much more American than a black from Alabama or Puerto Rican in NYC. I am pretty fond of Poles for what its worth. Polish Americans tend to be pretty down to Earth people. Polish women were also friendlier and more open to dating than Italians or Irish women growing up. My heart breaks for the plight of the British Poles or Polish Brits.

the polish have a long history with the UK, longer even than ww2, of which they served and cooperated with the british military very well. the polish air force were a crucial component in the RAF's defence of britain in the much-talked-about, forever-celebrated, tea-mug-friendly 'Battle of Britain'. but of course, dilbert hates poles too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Ai … d_Kingdom)

the 'problem' with poles has always been simple, off-the-shelf xenophobia, of the same provincial sort you'll see anywhere. they took jobs picking kale on farms in places like lincolnshire, in all weather, for below a wage that any british person would ever take (and the jobs were there for the taking; UK farmers were constantly complaining that they couldn't find anyone to do the work; and brexit think pieces/interviews were full of cautious landowners and agriculturalists saying, well, wouldn't it be nice and ideal if they could have an entirely english workforce, but ... cf. paying $1800 for an iphone that's made-in-americuh).

they have the same religion, more observant and more traditional, in fact, the same cultural mores, even the same skin colour (huge bonus!!!) they do not break the law or groom girls (dilbert's sweats abate); most poles who come over here will be highly educated, to degree level if not postgraduate, they'll have many of the advanced skills that our serviced-based economy in fact needs, and they speak several languages. about the greatest impact they'll have on a neighbourhood is opening a polish food mart so that they can get their own home-comforts food (that alien crop, unknown in the british isles, the potato ...)

there was a lot of cant in the tabloids 10 years ago or so about how polish builders and plumbers deflated the british labour market and ruined the livelihoods of hard-working british tradespeople (so much for the spirit of deregulation and the market, eh). those tradespeople enjoy average salaries of like £50-60k, significantly higher than most university graduates, in fact. typical bullshit.
https://www.simplybusiness.co.uk/knowle … graduates/

what it comes down to isn't that the polish have damaged natives' ability to earn, or to go about their lives as before; it comes down to people not liking shops with strange names, or hearing a different accent or language on the bus.

Last edited by uziq (2020-02-14 04:04:19)

yeah in this case it was a bunch of self-employed/small business owners, who fleece the state their tax and write off as much as possible for deductions, small business owners being given immense tax privileges by the govt (to say nothing of the casual fadging of work, nicking and reselling of building supplies, ripping off old people, etc) complaining vociferously about new tradespeople from poland or the czech republic or whatever coming over and competing for the same work.

these people live the life of riley. bricklayers in london making nearly £100k a year. and they’ve all got rolled up copies of The Sun or the Daily Mail on the dashes of their white vans, decrying this that and the other about foreigners.

it’s the worst sort of blue-collar, the jay brand attitudes that only want to look after their own narrow self-interest and have all sorts of unreconstructed negative views about anyone different (that goes for your favourites, homosexuals, as much as it does about anyone else; in fact they’re probably as suspicious of people who don’t like football as anything else). i’m pretty sure that this sort of on-the-make tradesman would utterly balk at the idea of paying more tax to found an NHS, if it was proposed for the first time today.

but dilbert will gloss it as ‘people were mad about poles’. the people, that is, who would refuse to take labourer work picking fruits or vegetables for the wages those jobs command; the people who would rather sit on their arses and expect welfare, taking more interest in x factor than national politics; the people who just want to protect their own small businesses from any sort of competition. these people who buy cheap food, cheap clothes, and enjoy every other convenience because of the exact same international labour market. pity the poor natives!

there’s a great book by richard hoggart, very influential piece of 20th century sociology, called ‘the uses of literacy’. it’s not really about education or literacy per se, it’s about the social attitudes and values, the ‘class consciousness’ if you will, of the working class, historically and now. he talks a lot about the attitudes in the northern industrial towns of workers towards owners, workers towards each other, etc. it’s incredibly insightful. the whole culture of slightly bodging the job and having a few pallets of that fancy tile for yourself to sell down the pub, etc. and then some populist-brown noser like dilbert comes along and makes out ‘the people’ to be these victims, assailed by barbarians from without. yeah fucking right. bearing in mind he’s the same guy who will encourage jay to move somewhere else and take action. but the white brit is supposed to be preserved like some non-migratory bird on a reserve.

Last edited by uziq (2020-02-14 06:57:11)

uziq wrote:

yeah in this case it was a bunch of self-employed/small business owners, who fleece the state their tax and write off as much as possible for deductions, small business owners being given immense tax privileges by the govt (to say nothing of the casual fadging of work, nicking and reselling of building supplies, ripping off old people, etc) complaining vociferously about new tradespeople from poland or the czech republic or whatever coming over and competing for the same work.

I'm sure you won't be claiming your Macbook and screen as business expenses, you know on principle so there's more money for the NHS.

these people live the life of riley. bricklayers in london making nearly £100k a year. and they’ve all got rolled up copies of The Sun or the Daily Mail on the dashes of their white vans, decrying this that and the other about foreigners.

You have a problem with people who work hand and will likely be physically ruined at 40 earning high wages?
I bet you've never done anything more strenuous than a light jog, let alone a 12 hour work day more arduous than circuit training.

It's possible to respect the worth of someone's job skills while at the same time questioning their political viewpoints. Thank you for the prime roofing job, mister. But I don't think the gays should be lined up and shot.

uziq wrote:

i have never claimed any of my tech as expenses. i make a full salary. bizarre comment.

i don’t have any problem with them earning high wages. i have a problem with them being racist to people who want to improve their own lives. last time i checked you were attacking jay for almost all of the same views. it’s funny how when it suits your racist, nativist agenda then all of the protectionism, relying on the state and narrowmindedness are A-OK.

voting to leave the EU ‘because of the poles’ or because of pakistani grooming gangs is immensely stupid. none of it makes any sense whatsoever. indeed, the standard line now is that ‘people are willing to make irrational choices in terms of cost-benefit, choices to their own detriment, for something “they believe in”’. that’s a euphemism for a prejudice. for belief, read ‘that england should only be for the english’. yeah, i have a problem with that vision, not with bricklayers making a good wage. it’s their stupid and nonsensical defenses for their pig-ignorant views. a pole never made an english plumber any poorer, let me tell you.

it’s also not my fault that i tried in school and have a comfortable job. since when was the nerdy target-shooting mummies boy a gritty lumpenprole with a sympathy for hard graft?

Why is it that everyone that disagrees with progressive ideology like you espouse is labeled a closed minded racist? The word has lost all meaning at this point from overuse. I'd call people who obsess over diversity quotas based on superficial traits racist, but what do I know? I'd bet money that my circle of friends and acquaintances is far more diverse than yours, but I'm the closed minded racist You always were a joke.

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

uziq wrote:

i have absolutely no problem with ---------

Right. That was more to follow up dilbert. Back-breaking, hand-eating trades shouldn't be used to gatekeep man cards or whatever. And attacks on a blue collar man's political opinions shouldn't be transmogrified into some condemnation of their trade. It's weak. I've seen and dealt with these ugly attitudes in person. Why should an accomplished programmer, accountant, or someone who's been through years of medical school and residency be less worthy because they don't have calloused skin.

Pain tolerance and stoicism have been associated with manliness for millenia. It's at the heart of why so many office workers are obsessive gym rats. Blue collar guys rarely go to the gym. All trying to live up to the ideal. Some do it at work, some after.

Jay wrote:

Pain tolerance and stoicism have been associated with manliness for millenia. It's at the heart of why so many office workers are obsessive gym rats. Blue collar guys rarely go to the gym. All trying to live up to the ideal. Some do it at work, some after.

Not fancying disease from a sedentary lifestyle, I would probably be a gym rat if I was locked into a desk job. That isn't to say that I'd routinely run sandpaper over my hands and face to live up to some grizzled comic book body image.

To be fair, pain tolerance (and target shooting) might come in handy at those office worker paintball events that seem to happen all the time in sitcoms.

uziq wrote:

i don’t have any problem with them earning high wages. i have a problem with them being racist to people who want to improve their own lives. last time i checked you were attacking jay for almost all of the same views. it’s funny how when it suits your racist, nativist agenda then all of the protectionism, relying on the state and narrowmindedness are A-OK.

Wait a minute, aren't you the one complaining about your industry being disrupted?
How much time spent ranting about Amazon destroying the publishing industry?

I suppose its OK for you to sneer at the uneducated manual worker when they want to protect their livelihoods, not so funny when it happens to someone as intellectual and deserving as you.

You can babble all you like about your progressive theories - you're wrong every time. The UK voted repeatedly for Brexit and isolationism and four years on you can't accept or rationalise it, the US voted for Trump and isolationism and will likely win a second term as the Dems tie themselves in knots over womens quotas and allwoing the mentally ill to pick their lavatory.
Once again, every other country in the world practices isolationism, racist supremacy etc. Thats the way it is, bad luck.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2020-02-15 04:45:29)

uziq wrote:

i went paintballing last month. it wasn't because we were out for fun, it was *checks notes* because we are emasculated middle-class phoneys seeking to reconnect with true manliness, having been castrated by our comfortable jobs.

Shifty is a bigger man than you. He plays airsoft.