Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6715

Uzique The Lesser wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

Uzique The Lesser wrote:


the fuck does that have to do with central government? you are a fucking idiot. that's outright theft and fraud, what the international banks are doing to sovereign states and their tax money. that has nothing to do with euro-level decision making, it's to do with a hijacking of the political process by banks. you'd have a more valid example in "euro's bitching about regulations and human rights decisions from europe", but even then that's a minor and habitual grumbling - brits like to moan, especially - and we are mostly happy with it.
i bet a lot of greeks aren't too happy with the ECB.
it goes way beyond the greeks. but it's hardly a normal example of 'central government' doing its everyday ruling. the whole 'financial crisis' is one big blowjob for the western banks.
what aboot the political deficit
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Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|4253
sigh. yeah, the political deficit would really see the exact same measures being taken.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5357|London, England
I'm not sure if the lot of you are being utterly stupid and misrepresenting my opinion, or if you're just trying to piss me off, honestly.

What part of 'layered' was difficult to comprehend? Sure, if you're building an interstate highway, it would fall under the Federal layer, because hey, multiple states are involved. Does that mean that local people should have no say in its construction? Should towns that the highway will pass through have zero say in its path? Dilbert is good at reductio ad absurdum arguments, painting a picture of every town picking different sorts of pavement for the highway, but he's being a complete ninny and knows I was suggesting no such thing. But if you really want to make that asinine sort of argument, it already exists, each state does pave their section of the highway differently based on costs and climate. If you drive through Texas, the highways are all concerete with no asphalt. If you drive through Arkansas, the highways are tinged red from the local clay that's mixed into the concrete. If you drive through Minnesota they have asphalt highways that are grated in order to increase traction in snow. You could be on the same highway, traveling through multiple states, and experience multiple road surfaces along the way. Amazing. But I wasn't even making that argument, I was saying that if a county wants to build an internal highway, it should not fall under the Federal Department of Transportation. There's no need to involve them, it's a local matter.

The same goes for public schools paid for by local taxes. See, every school district in my state is funded by local property taxes, and the curriculum is set at the local level by school boards. Yes, there are state guidelines that must be followed, but teaching style and everything else that goes on in the classroom is set at the local level. Yes, we do have boards of soccer moms advising the school board as well.

My entire argument is in favor of the Federalist system upon which this country was founded, and against the Statist approach that has been taken since Theodore Roosevelt and other Progressives. They've expanded the size and scope of the Federal government over the past century and it has come at the expense of local power. They have had grandiose visions of righting wrongs and centralized control which has just led to more corruption, and more one-size-fits-all pieces of legislation like No Child Left Behind. I've never said that the federal government needs to be abolished, just that its role needs to be diminished and taken out of the every day decisions that the people make. It needs to be around to run the military and take care of things that affect multiple states, but it doesn't need to be setting a universal curriculum for everyone to follow or deciding to force a states version of universal health care on the rest of us.

I'm simply a fan of diversity when it comes to political practices. I view each and every state as its own little experiment in democratic rule, and they all have their own little foibles, some of them work, others don't. The ones that work are generally picked up on by other states and implemented there. Others are ignored. Some examples: my state recently passed a law banning magazines larger than seven bullets (which is in the process of being overturned due to the illegal way in which the law was passed) so if gun control is really important to you, feel free to move here. If abortion is really important to you, you can move to Kansas where they just put severe restrictions on when a woman can get one (before the prenatal heartbeat can be heard). If you really want to be green and live in a carbon-less utopia, move to California where they have a cap and trade system in place. If taxes are an issue for you, feel free to move to New Hampshire, Texas, Florida (and a few others that I can't remember off the top of my head) where they have no state income tax (or sales tax in NH's case). If you want to live where everyone has access to universal health care, move to Massachusetts. etc.

You all spent a good chunk of time mocking me, but it's the system we already have in place here in the US. Most of the decision making power already rests at the local level, I was simply making the argument that the expansion of Federal power is the worst thing possible if you actually care about democracy and people retaining power over their own lives, and should be reversed. I like living in a country where there are 50 simultaneous experiments in democracy playing out and I get to choose which version I want to live in. Is that scary or something to the rest of you?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5357|London, England

AussieReaper wrote:

Jay wrote:

Would you rather have a county design a road or should the federal government do so? I didn't give an example because I didn't think it necessary.
A road? Seriously?

You think the county's could just get together and come up with something like this?



And if you think roads would be oh so much more successful if only the states could handle the design and maintenance, you're forgetting how individual states couldn't even get rail gauges matching each other

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broad_gauge#United_States

Originally, various gauges were used in the United States and Canada. Some railways, primarily in the northeast, used standard gauge; others used gauges ranging from 4 ft (1,219 mm) to 6 ft (1,829 mm). Problems began as soon as lines began to meet and, in much of the north-eastern United States, standard gauge was adopted. Most Southern states used 5 ft (1,524 mm) gauge. Following the American Civil War, trade between the South and North grew and the break of gauge became a major economic nuisance. Competitive pressures had forced all the Canadian railways to convert to standard gauge by 1880, and Illinois Central converted its south line to New Orleans to standard gauge in 1881, putting pressure on the southern railways.
I thought you had an engineering degree. This is pretty obviously something individual states can't manage on their own. Mass transit needs to be co-ordinated at a national level. Unless you're talking about the design of a dirt road to some pig farmers house - which I doubt anyone would seriously be suggesting here, you have no clue what you're talking about and can't provide any logical argument for what states can do better than the national collective can.
Please don't ever post in D&ST again, you're the biggest moron on this forum. I'd rather have a conversation with Roc about memes.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|4253

Jay wrote:

Is that scary or something to the rest of you?
no, we can just move to another as well, you know. we're not all stuck in our little socialist hells.

and it is hard to square your 'moderate i just don't want any more expansion' line in that last post with your libertarian textbook-toting elsewhere. so do you want the libertarian reality, here and now, or are you just arguing for a historical revision?
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6674|Canberra, AUS
briefly:

If abortion is really important to you, you can move to Kansas where they just put severe restrictions on when a woman can get one (before the prenatal heartbeat can be heard).
and so what about states with legislation making it illegal to move states to have an abortion, in an inverse of the above?

in any case, it's difficult to justify this if you genuinely believe that abortion is a mother's right, and hence not really a matter of "states rights" but rather human rights - which, last i heard, transcend borders.

If you really want to be green and live in a carbon-less utopia, move to California where they have a cap and trade system in place.
i wasn't aware co2 molecules wore flags.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5357|London, England
Spark, the point is that there is no universal truth. You may believe that abortion is fine, others view it as murder. Our system allows people to live with other like-minded people and set their own societal rules.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6674|Canberra, AUS
but then on the flipside it's a bit naive, to say the least, to think that "oh just move states" will solve anything or ameliorate anyone's concerns.

especially when it comes to the second issue, when i would at least hope that it's more than just a feel-good thing (i know that this is indeed an accurate description of many, many environmentalists)

that wasn't meant to be any sort of detail rebuttal/response btw (i don't have time right now), just a few things i immediately noticed.

Last edited by Spark (2013-03-21 07:08:56)

The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|4253

Jay wrote:

Spark, the point is that there is no universal truth. You may believe that abortion is fine, others view it as murder. Our system allows people to live with other like-minded people and set their own societal rules.
actually the system that allows people to live freely and abide by that "no universal truth" thing is the european system, where the matter of abortion seldom comes into the political or legal sphere at all. you talk about there being "no universal truth", but then oddly think a series of states that try to institute their own form of "universal truth" via LAW - i.e. the system of codifying truth values in legislation - is 'right'. lol what the fuck. the best way to allow for a plurality of social opinions and mores - i.e. DEMOCRACY - is to not fucking legislate it at all. you will never get a state in america where every citizen thinks abortion is right or wrong. it will always be divisive. so why are you letting the majority dictate to the minority what to do? that's not very liberal or democratic. no universal truth, and all. why should one conservatives' version of the truth rule an entire state then, and force people to move?

Last edited by Uzique The Lesser (2013-03-21 07:13:46)

Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|4253
it boggles the mind how jay makes out he is the echt-libertarian, but then wants to see states legislate choices such as abortion, and sees that as 'healthy' on the national level because it provides 'choice'. why do you even want state-level legislators invading on that level of personal, non-utile choice?
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5585

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Liberty
Mutantbear
Semi Constructive Criticism
+1,431|5964|London, England

Macbeth wrote:


Liberty
Liberty for companies to provide paid maternal leave or not
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Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|4253

Mutantbear wrote:

Macbeth wrote:


Liberty
Liberty for companies to provide paid maternal leave or not
but mostly not
Mutantbear
Semi Constructive Criticism
+1,431|5964|London, England

At least im not a guy

imagine trying to get paid paternal leave in america.
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Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|4253
some of us faggy euro states are pretty good on modern liberal hipster hippy dads
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6631|949

Check mandatory vacations and paid sick days.  US lags like a mofo in that regard too.
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|4253
freeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

to work
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|6670|UK
looks like tyranny
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5585

my brain read tyranny as tranny

my mind's in the gutter
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6152|what

Jay wrote:

AussieReaper wrote:

Jay wrote:

Would you rather have a county design a road or should the federal government do so? I didn't give an example because I didn't think it necessary.
A road? Seriously?

You think the county's could just get together and come up with something like this?



And if you think roads would be oh so much more successful if only the states could handle the design and maintenance, you're forgetting how individual states couldn't even get rail gauges matching each other

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broad_gauge#United_States

Originally, various gauges were used in the United States and Canada. Some railways, primarily in the northeast, used standard gauge; others used gauges ranging from 4 ft (1,219 mm) to 6 ft (1,829 mm). Problems began as soon as lines began to meet and, in much of the north-eastern United States, standard gauge was adopted. Most Southern states used 5 ft (1,524 mm) gauge. Following the American Civil War, trade between the South and North grew and the break of gauge became a major economic nuisance. Competitive pressures had forced all the Canadian railways to convert to standard gauge by 1880, and Illinois Central converted its south line to New Orleans to standard gauge in 1881, putting pressure on the southern railways.
I thought you had an engineering degree. This is pretty obviously something individual states can't manage on their own. Mass transit needs to be co-ordinated at a national level. Unless you're talking about the design of a dirt road to some pig farmers house - which I doubt anyone would seriously be suggesting here, you have no clue what you're talking about and can't provide any logical argument for what states can do better than the national collective can.
Please don't ever post in D&ST again, you're the biggest moron on this forum. I'd rather have a conversation with Roc about memes.
Well we don't want to hurt your feelings.
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RTHKI
mmmf mmmf mmmf
+1,736|6736|Oxferd Ohire
But half of your post was wrong
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13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|6496

lc
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6105|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

if a county wants to build an internal highway, it should not fall under the Federal Department of Transportation. There's no need to involve them, it's a local matter.
Its barely a local matter if people from all over the country will likely drive on it, and whats the big problem with conforming to national design rules?
Most of the decision making power already rests at the local level
So what is it you're griping about exactly?
I like living in a country where there are 50 simultaneous experiments in democracy playing out and I get to choose which version I want to live in.
Thats great in theory, however they aren't nation states with sealed borders so in practice its asinine.
Is that scary or something to the rest of you?
Some of us are fairly well travelled, so no. It just looks inefficient and absurd, not least coming from you.

Why don't you move to one of the more 'Libertarian' states or countries then, you know, the ones where you have to practice self-reliance and such? I'd suggest buying a farm in Montana.

Or do you like living in a city with the comfy office jobs and all the amenities laid on which come from tax and spend bureaucracies?
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|4253
a hard-line libertarian new york state would be a funny experiment to see in governance. i bet all those cushty centre-right libertarian intellectuals and east-coast intelligentsia would move out pretty quick. it's the daft american equivalent of all the european professors in the 50's and 60's who got behind left wing marxism - in theory, anyway. then they all trooped off to visit moscow and came back disillusioned and realized the thought was best left in expensive hardcover books.

Last edited by Uzique The Lesser (2013-03-22 02:19:59)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6105|eXtreme to the maX
Not forgetting the blue-collar teamster protectionists who despise the free market.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!

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