Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6077|eXtreme to the maX
https://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/254/254883/25488349/jpg/active/978x.jpg

Well well, apparently its only acceptable to criticise muslims for shouting down cartoonists.
(Gerald Scarfe is a reasonably well respected political cartoonist/satirist)
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5556

President Barack Obama is expected to lay out his principles for immigration reform in a speech in Las Vegas today that will include a potentially quicker path to citizenship than the bipartisan plan a group of senators unveiled earlier this week.

The president will offer some new details about the White House's immigration reform plan, which expands on a blueprint it released in 2011, a senior administration official told ABC News. But for now Obama will stop short of offering his own piece of legislation because of the progress made by the Senate "Gang of Eight."

Like the senators' plan, Obama's proposal calls for a pathway to citizenship for many of the 11 million undocumented immigrants living in the U.S. The senators' plan would grant "probationary legal status" immediately to eligible undocumented immigrants, but would not allow them to apply for permanent legal status, or a green card, until the border is deemed to be secure. Think of that as a trigger system.
Can someone unban lowing? I want to hear his expert opinion on this. Can we also get in contact with GS and ATG?
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6742|PNW

I'd love to but I have to file my toenails.
OrangeHound
Busy doing highfalutin adminy stuff ...
+1,335|6620|Washington DC

Macbeth wrote:

President Barack Obama is expected to lay out his principles for immigration reform in a speech in Las Vegas today that will include a potentially quicker path to citizenship than the bipartisan plan a group of senators unveiled earlier this week.

The president will offer some new details about the White House's immigration reform plan, which expands on a blueprint it released in 2011, a senior administration official told ABC News. But for now Obama will stop short of offering his own piece of legislation because of the progress made by the Senate "Gang of Eight."

Like the senators' plan, Obama's proposal calls for a pathway to citizenship for many of the 11 million undocumented immigrants living in the U.S. The senators' plan would grant "probationary legal status" immediately to eligible undocumented immigrants, but would not allow them to apply for permanent legal status, or a green card, until the border is deemed to be secure. Think of that as a trigger system.
Can someone unban lowing? I want to hear his expert opinion on this. Can we also get in contact with GS and ATG?
I'll stand in for Lowing .... or, more likely, in opposition.

(a) You cannot grant citizenship to illegal immigrants ... it is a simple explanation.  Non-citizen immigrants work low paying jobs in America because if they do not work these jobs, then they will starve.  Unlike American citizens, they are not eligible for social services that provide the equivalent of $15 an hour.

Why do Americans not work these low paying jobs?  Because, as a citizen, they qualify for social service benefits for NOT working ... lower class individuals in our society have a choice of either (1) sitting at home all day watching TV and raking in the equivalent of $15 an hour, or (2) working in landscaping, agriculture, house cleaning, etc. for about $8 an hour.  Most of them (say 95%) choose #1.

If America grants all these immigrants citizenship, then they grant them eligibility for all these social services and they too will choose #1 ... which then will create a vacuum for a new generation of illegal immigration.

(b) Yet, you cannot keep illegal immigrants in the shadows ... they need to have a resident status that is NOT citizenship.  There is far too much abuse, oppression, and exploitation to ignore this very real problem.

Source:  Me ... I am around and work with this stuff most every day.
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5556

Your first point is a very valid complaint (?) that often gets ignored by the pro amnesty people and drowned out by other stuff from the anti-immigration crowd.

I'm not for citizenship either. I am fine with resident status and then putting them on the back of the immigration line. The ones that came here as children and are for the most part culturally American I support fast tracking. Would be perfect if we had easy to obtain cross border working permits. Would make dumping our college grads in Mexico easier too...

As far as legal immigration goes I am hoping businesses manage to lobby in some legislation that grants instant residency to anyone who finishes a degree at a reputable university. We shouldn't be educating them and then sending them home.

I am mostly reminiscing about the epic ATG-GS wars and lowing's epic knee jerk extremism vs the Europeans. And also enjoying the they-took-our-jobs type's tears.
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6124|what

OrangeHound wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

President Barack Obama is expected to lay out his principles for immigration reform in a speech in Las Vegas today that will include a potentially quicker path to citizenship than the bipartisan plan a group of senators unveiled earlier this week.

The president will offer some new details about the White House's immigration reform plan, which expands on a blueprint it released in 2011, a senior administration official told ABC News. But for now Obama will stop short of offering his own piece of legislation because of the progress made by the Senate "Gang of Eight."

Like the senators' plan, Obama's proposal calls for a pathway to citizenship for many of the 11 million undocumented immigrants living in the U.S. The senators' plan would grant "probationary legal status" immediately to eligible undocumented immigrants, but would not allow them to apply for permanent legal status, or a green card, until the border is deemed to be secure. Think of that as a trigger system.
Can someone unban lowing? I want to hear his expert opinion on this. Can we also get in contact with GS and ATG?
I'll stand in for Lowing .... or, more likely, in opposition.

(a) You cannot grant citizenship to illegal immigrants ... it is a simple explanation.  Non-citizen immigrants work low paying jobs in America because if they do not work these jobs, then they will starve.  Unlike American citizens, they are not eligible for social services that provide the equivalent of $15 an hour.

Why do Americans not work these low paying jobs?  Because, as a citizen, they qualify for social service benefits for NOT working ... lower class individuals in our society have a choice of either (1) sitting at home all day watching TV and raking in the equivalent of $15 an hour, or (2) working in landscaping, agriculture, house cleaning, etc. for about $8 an hour.  Most of them (say 95%) choose #1.

If America grants all these immigrants citizenship, then they grant them eligibility for all these social services and they too will choose #1 ... which then will create a vacuum for a new generation of illegal immigration.

(b) Yet, you cannot keep illegal immigrants in the shadows ... they need to have a resident status that is NOT citizenship.  There is far too much abuse, oppression, and exploitation to ignore this very real problem.

Source:  Me ... I am around and work with this stuff most every day.
Isn't B just a green card / working visa?
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6687
I'm still confuzzled about being an illegal immigrant YET being in college at the same time. apply for a student visa homie, you'd be set.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5329|London, England

Cybargs wrote:

I'm still confuzzled about being an illegal immigrant YET being in college at the same time. apply for a student visa homie, you'd be set.
We have very strict racism-based quotas that put strict limits on immigrants from many countries. I imagine it's very difficult for an Asian student to receive a visa just because there are already so many Asian students here.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6603|949

OrangeHound wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

President Barack Obama is expected to lay out his principles for immigration reform in a speech in Las Vegas today that will include a potentially quicker path to citizenship than the bipartisan plan a group of senators unveiled earlier this week.

The president will offer some new details about the White House's immigration reform plan, which expands on a blueprint it released in 2011, a senior administration official told ABC News. But for now Obama will stop short of offering his own piece of legislation because of the progress made by the Senate "Gang of Eight."

Like the senators' plan, Obama's proposal calls for a pathway to citizenship for many of the 11 million undocumented immigrants living in the U.S. The senators' plan would grant "probationary legal status" immediately to eligible undocumented immigrants, but would not allow them to apply for permanent legal status, or a green card, until the border is deemed to be secure. Think of that as a trigger system.
Can someone unban lowing? I want to hear his expert opinion on this. Can we also get in contact with GS and ATG?
I'll stand in for Lowing .... or, more likely, in opposition.

(a) You cannot grant citizenship to illegal immigrants ... it is a simple explanation.  Non-citizen immigrants work low paying jobs in America because if they do not work these jobs, then they will starve.  Unlike American citizens, they are not eligible for social services that provide the equivalent of $15 an hour.

Why do Americans not work these low paying jobs?  Because, as a citizen, they qualify for social service benefits for NOT working ... lower class individuals in our society have a choice of either (1) sitting at home all day watching TV and raking in the equivalent of $15 an hour, or (2) working in landscaping, agriculture, house cleaning, etc. for about $8 an hour.  Most of them (say 95%) choose #1.

If America grants all these immigrants citizenship, then they grant them eligibility for all these social services and they too will choose #1 ... which then will create a vacuum for a new generation of illegal immigration.

(b) Yet, you cannot keep illegal immigrants in the shadows ... they need to have a resident status that is NOT citizenship.  There is far too much abuse, oppression, and exploitation to ignore this very real problem.

Source:  Me ... I am around and work with this stuff most every day.
You missed the part where the employer doesn't pay tax and the employees paychecks largely do not get taxed either.  Yes, non-citizens do not get to take advantage of our social services - they also don't pay into them.  I'd argue that the overall net cost is a loss, because non-citizens still take advantage of basic services provided by government while not paying a dime into them.  Under that logic, folding them into taxable citizens leads to a net positive influx of cash.
I wonder where you get this 'equivalent of $15/hour' stat.  I also don't agree with your assessment that most (95%) of the people on welfare because they are too lazy to work.
13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|6468

cut him some slack;

OrangeHound wrote:

I'll stand in for Lowing
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5329|London, England

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

OrangeHound wrote:

Macbeth wrote:


Can someone unban lowing? I want to hear his expert opinion on this. Can we also get in contact with GS and ATG?
I'll stand in for Lowing .... or, more likely, in opposition.

(a) You cannot grant citizenship to illegal immigrants ... it is a simple explanation.  Non-citizen immigrants work low paying jobs in America because if they do not work these jobs, then they will starve.  Unlike American citizens, they are not eligible for social services that provide the equivalent of $15 an hour.

Why do Americans not work these low paying jobs?  Because, as a citizen, they qualify for social service benefits for NOT working ... lower class individuals in our society have a choice of either (1) sitting at home all day watching TV and raking in the equivalent of $15 an hour, or (2) working in landscaping, agriculture, house cleaning, etc. for about $8 an hour.  Most of them (say 95%) choose #1.

If America grants all these immigrants citizenship, then they grant them eligibility for all these social services and they too will choose #1 ... which then will create a vacuum for a new generation of illegal immigration.

(b) Yet, you cannot keep illegal immigrants in the shadows ... they need to have a resident status that is NOT citizenship.  There is far too much abuse, oppression, and exploitation to ignore this very real problem.

Source:  Me ... I am around and work with this stuff most every day.
You missed the part where the employer doesn't pay tax and the employees paychecks largely do not get taxed either.  Yes, non-citizens do not get to take advantage of our social services - they also don't pay into them.  I'd argue that the overall net cost is a loss, because non-citizens still take advantage of basic services provided by government while not paying a dime into them.  Under that logic, folding them into taxable citizens leads to a net positive influx of cash.
I wonder where you get this 'equivalent of $15/hour' stat.  I also don't agree with your assessment that most (95%) of the people on welfare because they are too lazy to work.
On the flip side, you have all of the undocumented workers with fake SS#'s working on the books, paying payroll and income taxes, and never being able to get a tax return or collect the benefits they pay for.

I'd bet that the millions of legal Americans working off the books cause more harm to the overall system, and cost more overall, than the illegals.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6652|Disaster Free Zone

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

OrangeHound wrote:

Macbeth wrote:


Can someone unban lowing? I want to hear his expert opinion on this. Can we also get in contact with GS and ATG?
I'll stand in for Lowing .... or, more likely, in opposition.

(a) You cannot grant citizenship to illegal immigrants ... it is a simple explanation.  Non-citizen immigrants work low paying jobs in America because if they do not work these jobs, then they will starve.  Unlike American citizens, they are not eligible for social services that provide the equivalent of $15 an hour.

Why do Americans not work these low paying jobs?  Because, as a citizen, they qualify for social service benefits for NOT working ... lower class individuals in our society have a choice of either (1) sitting at home all day watching TV and raking in the equivalent of $15 an hour, or (2) working in landscaping, agriculture, house cleaning, etc. for about $8 an hour.  Most of them (say 95%) choose #1.

If America grants all these immigrants citizenship, then they grant them eligibility for all these social services and they too will choose #1 ... which then will create a vacuum for a new generation of illegal immigration.

(b) Yet, you cannot keep illegal immigrants in the shadows ... they need to have a resident status that is NOT citizenship.  There is far too much abuse, oppression, and exploitation to ignore this very real problem.

Source:  Me ... I am around and work with this stuff most every day.
You missed the part where the employer doesn't pay tax and the employees paychecks largely do not get taxed either.  Yes, non-citizens do not get to take advantage of our social services - they also don't pay into them.  I'd argue that the overall net cost is a loss, because non-citizens still take advantage of basic services provided by government while not paying a dime into them.  Under that logic, folding them into taxable citizens leads to a net positive influx of cash.
I wonder where you get this 'equivalent of $15/hour' stat.  I also don't agree with your assessment that most (95%) of the people on welfare because they are too lazy to work.
us doesn't have sales tax?
13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|6468

DrunkFace wrote:

us doesn't have sales tax?
states and municipalities do
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6603|949

Yes, see where I said 'their paychecks largely do not get taxed either'. Poor wording on my part, but I don't think its a stretch for you to understand I was talking about payroll tax particularly.
rdx-fx
...
+955|6562
The major detail about illegal immigrants, is precisely that they are illegal.

If they want to be non-resident workers, then do it legally.

Come in through the front door, or don't come in.

If we need all these low-pay workers in the country, then fix the INS process to let more good workers in on temporary work visas.
Let in the ones with the clean criminal background checks, clean work history, and good references.
Drug runners, criminals, low lifes, and psych cases? Fuck off, stay out.


It's not about race, it's not about bigotry, it's not "they took ur Jurbs".  It is that they came in illegally.
Come in through the front door, like everyone else, or don't come in.
13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|6468

rdx-fx wrote:

Come in through the front door, like everyone else, or don't come in.
i grew up south of Chula Vista (but north of the San Ysidro border crossing). Mexicans are good at jumping fences, better than INS. We would never hear a Mexican jumping the fence and running through the yard, but the goddam border patrol woke us up every time . . .
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5556

Who gives a shit if they have a piece of paper or not? That is the only difference between Jose from Tijuana and Juan from Mexico City. Waiting around for your number to be called because we put an arbitrary number on how many people can come from each country doesn't make you anymore valuable than the person who decided to take the initiative.

It is petty of you to put that much emphasis on a single document. Then again you do pray for the day you get to shoot some cops over the constitution so it is not surprising you care that much.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5329|London, England
I've never understood why Republicans were the ones that were so anti-immigrant anyway. Anti-immigration is a big union/labor issue. It should logically be the Dems trying to keep people out.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5556

Jay wrote:

I've never understood why Republicans were the ones that were so anti-immigrant anyway. Anti-immigration is a big union/labor issue. It should logically be the Dems trying to keep people out.
It is also bizarre that the people who care so little about their fellow countrymen that they would rather they die then pay for their healthcare suddenly care so much about the little guy.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5329|London, England

Macbeth wrote:

Jay wrote:

I've never understood why Republicans were the ones that were so anti-immigrant anyway. Anti-immigration is a big union/labor issue. It should logically be the Dems trying to keep people out.
It is also bizarre that the people who care so little about their fellow countrymen that they would rather they die then pay for their healthcare suddenly care so much about the little guy.
It's also bizarre that you can't put two and two together and see that both arguments are pro-freedom. I want people to be able to move around freely among societies to find work. I don't believe in closed borders. I'm certainly not worried about most of the illegals I've met and worked with sucking up government money and sitting on their ass. Most of the ones I've worked with have family in their home country that they send home money to every paycheck. They live in poverty here so they can provide a good income to their wife and kids at home. That's commendable. Try getting an entitled narcissistic kid like yourself to wash dishes for minimum wage, you'd turn your nose up and spit at the person who even suggested such an idea. I'll take one Jose over fifty Macbeth's any day of the week.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5556

No healthcare. The freedom to die from a terrible disease. That is what the French meant when they were yelling for freedom, equality, and fraternity.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6603|949

Macbeth wrote:

Who gives a shit if they have a piece of paper or not? That is the only difference between Jose from Tijuana and Juan from Mexico City. Waiting around for your number to be called because we put an arbitrary number on how many people can come from each country doesn't make you anymore valuable than the person who decided to take the initiative.

It is petty of you to put that much emphasis on a single document. Then again you do pray for the day you get to shoot some cops over the constitution so it is not surprising you care that much.
hmm?
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5556

That was directed at rdx.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6603|949

reference to "you do pray for the day you get to shoot some cops over the constitution so it is not surprising you care that much."?
rdx-fx
...
+955|6562

Macbeth wrote:

It is petty of you to put that much emphasis on a single document.
It is "petty" to expect people to follow laws?

Macbeth wrote:

Then again you do pray for the day you get to shoot some cops over the constitution so it is not surprising you care that much.
Wow, you're delusional.

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