unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7022|PNW

-Sh1fty- wrote:

It's not that we can't it's that we won't. Katrina was marked with looting, violence, and really poor organization. A combination of human scum and poor leadership turned it into a mess.
So it had nothing to do with the wall of water that rushed through the region?
-Sh1fty-
plundering yee booty
+510|5724|Ventura, California
Japan recovered really quickly from an even more devastating tsunami and an earthquake. The Mississippi River region just had massive flooding and that situation resolved itself quickly despite thousands being forced from their flooded homes.

I don't know too much about Katrina to be honest. So what little knowledge I have might not be entirely correct.
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6940|Tampa Bay Florida
New Orleans has always been a pretty sketchy place.  Katrina just brought out the worst in it.  Also the Japanese tsunami did not hit any major cities with millions of people living in them AFAIK.

It's now the murder capital of the US.

Last edited by Spearhead (2013-01-01 18:13:15)

-Sh1fty-
plundering yee booty
+510|5724|Ventura, California
I hate scum. Wish those people would turn their lives around and be productive citizens or just gtfo
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6940|Tampa Bay Florida
Annnd that's why you're a Republican
-Sh1fty-
plundering yee booty
+510|5724|Ventura, California
Annnnd that was the stupidest thing I've heard all night. If you want losers to stick around and cause crime then you're off the rocker.
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
Adams_BJ
Russian warship, go fuck yourself
+2,054|6873|Little Bentcock
Churchies going at each other
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6356|eXtreme to the maX

-Sh1fty- wrote:

I hate scum. Wish those people would turn their lives around and be productive citizens or just gtfo
When will you be turning your life around?
Fuck Israel
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6250|...

rdx-fx wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Not sure, the last war the US won - Vietnam?

Or the trade war with China - which is probably more serious.
Gulf War 1, 1991. Got Kuwait back.

Gulf War 2, 2003. Removed Saddam from power rather quickly.

Our military has historically been pretty good at warfare.
Our politicians have historically sucked ass at foreign policy, and figuring out what to do once the military has achieved military objectives.
They usually end up sitting in Washington DC with their thumbs up their asses, and telling the military "well, hell.. that was quick! You did the military part so well, why don't you try your hand at the foreign policy and political part tooI Imma gonna go play golf and run for reelection..."

Hint: Infantrymen are not hired for their brilliance at foreign policy...
We've had this discussion before (sort of) but regrettably I'd have to disagree. Foreign policy/politics and military matters are not mutually exclusive and policymakers in either should be aware of the fact. Your top brass, both military and political has 'historically' suffered from extremely narrow minded tunnelvision stupidity that brought you not only Afghanistan now, but Iraq post Saddam removal, Mogadishu, Vietnam and so on. If the military men keep blaming the politicians for their fuckups you're bound to repeat the same mistakes again and again.

You're already well in the process of repeating them with the CIA's insistence on torture tactics. Apart from bombing third world conventional forces to bits your record has been pretty shit.

Last edited by Shocking (2013-01-02 10:54:58)

inane little opines
rdx-fx
...
+955|6842
Shocking, you are close to right regarding our political leadership. You are completely wrong in your assumptions regarding the role of the ground-level military in making policy.

Funny you should mention Mogadishu...

That, and the problem at our Libyan consulate recently are both clear examples of the civilian masters fucking their military employees. AC-130 gunships, drones, and the best troops in the world on standby, less than 2 hours away (Djibouti) begging to get into the fight - and the civilian politicians in DC telling them "no".

Most of the major losses of soldiers have been directly because of the civilian leadership saying "no" to proper equipment, proper backup, or sane ROE (Rules of Engagement). Or through DC politicians micromanaging forces in the field.

I've lived through plenty of asinine and ignorant policies while in the military. I know what I'm talking about from personal experience. It is dumbass policies from DC politicians and DC civilians that ties the hands of the military. It is micromanagement from on high (President and entire cabinet watching live feed of OBL raid, anyone?). It is White House wonks more worried about how CNN will react than how many soldiers are going to die (Blackhawk Down - AKA Operation Gothic Serpent).


You just don't get how one-way the chain of command in the US military is.

DC civilians make policy. Military tries to implement policy, within the ROE the civilian leadership puts down.
Telling the civilian leadership "fuck you, that's impossible" isn't an option.

I am telling you this from repeated, personal experience.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5608|London, England

rdx-fx wrote:

Shocking, you are close to right regarding our political leadership. You are completely wrong in your assumptions regarding the role of the ground-level military in making policy.

Funny you should mention Mogadishu...

That, and the problem at our Libyan consulate recently are both clear examples of the civilian masters fucking their military employees. AC-130 gunships, drones, and the best troops in the world on standby, less than 2 hours away (Djibouti) begging to get into the fight - and the civilian politicians in DC telling them "no".

Most of the major losses of soldiers have been directly because of the civilian leadership saying "no" to proper equipment, proper backup, or sane ROE (Rules of Engagement). Or through DC politicians micromanaging forces in the field.

I've lived through plenty of asinine and ignorant policies while in the military. I know what I'm talking about from personal experience. It is dumbass policies from DC politicians and DC civilians that ties the hands of the military. It is micromanagement from on high (President and entire cabinet watching live feed of OBL raid, anyone?). It is White House wonks more worried about how CNN will react than how many soldiers are going to die (Blackhawk Down - AKA Operation Gothic Serpent).


You just don't get how one-way the chain of command in the US military is.

DC civilians make policy. Military tries to implement policy, within the ROE the civilian leadership puts down.
Telling the civilian leadership "fuck you, that's impossible" isn't an option.

I am telling you this from repeated, personal experience.
It honestly has more to do with how the military is designed than anything else. It's designed to win set-piece battles with two clearly defined armies battling each other a la WWII. Is this really a surprise when the general staff spends their time learning warfare by imitating the battles of the past that followed those rules? War has become 3 dimensional and most of our weapons advantages can be nullified quite easily by the enemy. We have thousands of tanks that have been largely useless in every engagement, except Desert Storm, since the Battle of the Bulge. We have bombers capable of dropping precision munitions and an enemy that will build their bunkers inside schools in order to create a PR nightmare. We have infantry units trained to assault enemy positions in formations learned in WWII. We keep sending conventional armies full of soldiers trained and equipped to fight a WWIII land war against Russia in Europe to instead fight guerrillas.

The problem is that we need more SF style training and units with a weaker central command that allows those units to fulfill their mission with merely guidance from above. But again, that's not how our military is designed to operate. Line units are all about discipline and control from above because of the politicization of the job. Example: what was the primary failure with the Blackhawk Down scenario? It was the general trying to control and call the shots from the rear rather than enabling and empowering his line commanders on the ground to do their job. The military spends so much time glorifying the general, when it should be glorifying and empowering the 1st lieutenants and captains instead.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6250|...
I believe the broken relationship between your JCS and political leadership is a result of what happened in Vietnam, particularly Westmoreland's constant requests for more troops, which Johnson granted, without producing results or even being able to explain how 'more troops' would help bring the war to a close sooner. We all know the result. Most senators/congressmen lived through that period and I'm pretty sure there's a connection between their distrust of military leadership and their experiences of this during Vietnam.

Yes, I mentioned somalia and yes that was almost entirely the fault of the Clinton administration. I did say both political and military leadership seem to have issues.

Still, I can't exempt the military leadership from blame. I cannot believe that the people who occupy some of the most powerful positions in your country, especially considering the worship of military figures in your culture, are completely powerless against cunts like Cheney, Rumsfeld and so on. They are important enough that they could cause a serious shitstorm for whoever is in power at that time. In addition, prior to any military action, they have been consulted with the implemented policy having been shaped in part by them. Failure is as much their fault as it is of the politicians.

Perhaps the problem is that too many in such positions of power believe they are god's gift to the world and capable of solving any problem, making them blind to reality. Eagerly exclaiming 'yes ma'am, yes sir' without having a properly defined plan at hand, more concerned with 'that extra star' or their own hero-image than what's happening under their leadership.
inane little opines
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5608|London, England
I don't think we worship military figures at all shocking. There have been a few names that have become famous over the years, I guess, but they have no real power and can be shitcanned quickly if they get out of line. Schwarzkopf, Petreus and McChrystal are the only names that really spring to mind, and the first had the good sense to retire after Desert Storm on a high note.

The real problem with the military leadership is that it's much less a meritocracy and much more a who can be a political animal and rise to the top. People like Shinseki and Petreus rose to the top because they made sure they checked all the right boxes on the way up: infantry, ranger tab, combat command etc. and then on top of that they self-promoted like madmen while being yes-men that didn't offend their superiors.

Last edited by Jay (2013-01-02 12:45:07)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6250|...

Jay wrote:

I don't think we worship military figures at all shocking. There have been a few names that have become famous over the years, I guess, but they have no real power and can be shitcanned quickly if they get out of line. Schwarzkopf, Petreus and McChrystal are the only names that really spring to mind, and the first had the good sense to retire after Desert Storm on a high note.
Now now. In this not just figures but the entirity of the military complex. Act of Valor, the upcoming 'Zero Dark Thirty', the many (of course unapologetically pro-US hoorah flag waving) bestsellers of ex military men (particularly from ex navy SEALs, can't seem to get enough of those), lots of TV-shows about US military selection or pop-culture spinoffs that even get exported overseas and thousands other such attempts at blatant rose tinted promotion of military men and matters. The existence of all sorts of bootcamps for kids and adults who like to pretend to be military alike, recruiters being present in both colleges and highschool grounds - the list goes on. In this world the US has the most militarized culture there is.

From the perspective of people living overseas it borders insanity, really.
inane little opines
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5608|London, England
I suppose I can see that, but I don't think it's nearly as prevalent as you think it is. A movie like Act of Valor has a very niche market among people who glorify the military, but that personality is much more prevalent among Southerners than it is anyone else. Southerners have historically dominated the ranks of the Army in particular. Most of our military posts are located in the South, so that adds to it as well. As far as JROTC and ROTC, I don't see a problem with it. It's voluntary. The only people who really complain about it are super liberal hippie offspring. Banning ROTC would be like slapping members of the military in the face and telling them that their job is unworthy of acknowledgement. Besides, West Point isn't nearly large enough to train the required numbers of officers.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6250|...
ROTC I can sort of see the point in. Something like JROTC would have the entire population up in arms in these parts of the world. A military occupation sure is worthy of recognition but, when you get down to it, it's also a very dirty job and one that should be approached carefully. IMHO there should be a healthy distance between the public and the military.

Granted I don't know US culture like you do, but from where I'm standing this part of it doesn't look good at all.
inane little opines
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6356|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

I don't think we worship military figures at all shocking. There have been a few names that have become famous over the years, I guess, but they have no real power and can be shitcanned quickly if they get out of line. Schwarzkopf, Petreus and McChrystal are the only names that really spring to mind, and the first had the good sense to retire after Desert Storm on a high note.
Most nations don't have Generals in the cabinet or constantly in and out of the seat of govt closely involved in determining policy, nor is the elected representative notionally 'Commander in Chief' of the military - the military is just one of a number of public service organisations, not an integral part of govt.

Nor is it an assumption that succesful Generals will go on to a political career.

In both those respects the US is far more of a militarised country than most - tin-pot post-coup dictatorships excluded.
Fuck Israel
-Sh1fty-
plundering yee booty
+510|5724|Ventura, California

Dilbert_X wrote:

-Sh1fty- wrote:

I hate scum. Wish those people would turn their lives around and be productive citizens or just gtfo
When will you be turning your life around?
Excuse me? I enlisted in August, got a temp DQ and Dec 27th I got my last waiver which I'm sending in. According to my recruiter I have a high chance of getting in but if I don't I have a lot of other stuff lined up. I currently have a job that I love, and I have plenty of connections for another job if I'd like one.

I'm on a pretty damn good track.
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
1stSFOD-Delta
Mike "The Spooge Gobbler" Morales
+376|6229|Blue Mountain State
The best part of being in a COP out on the middle off bumbfuck nowhere is there is no ROE.
https://www.itwirx.com/other/hksignature.jpg

Baba Booey
1stSFOD-Delta
Mike "The Spooge Gobbler" Morales
+376|6229|Blue Mountain State
Wadi warriors.
https://www.itwirx.com/other/hksignature.jpg

Baba Booey
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6356|eXtreme to the maX
Just don't video yourself committing war crimes mmkay?
Fuck Israel
1stSFOD-Delta
Mike "The Spooge Gobbler" Morales
+376|6229|Blue Mountain State
Oh my face isn't in any of them.

Helmet cam, yay.
https://www.itwirx.com/other/hksignature.jpg

Baba Booey
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6356|eXtreme to the maX
I bet your penis is though.
Fuck Israel
1stSFOD-Delta
Mike "The Spooge Gobbler" Morales
+376|6229|Blue Mountain State
Negative.

Not naval infantry.
https://www.itwirx.com/other/hksignature.jpg

Baba Booey
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6356|eXtreme to the maX
Right, they have larger penises/smaller stomachs?
Fuck Israel

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