Ty wrote:
Soldiers go through months upon months of training to learn how to act in a combat situation so when the shit hits the fan they know almost by instinct what to do. Going to a gun range may a great way to learn how to effectively operate a firearm and may improve your accuracy but it's not combat training. Knowing how to shoot isn't the same as knowing how to respond to a situation where a mad bugger is running around shooting anything that moves.
I'm pretty sure it was 13rin who after the Batman shooting mused that it would have been great if one of the movie goers was armed so they could have shot Holmes. I don't get the kind of mentality it takes to think the best thing to add to a gas-and-bullet-filled theatre of panicking screaming people is an inexperienced civilian with yet another gun. Is that what that situation really needed? More bullets flying through the air? Utter lunacy.
A emo teen with a gun in a school isn't exactly a combat situation. As to the movie theater massacre, it would have been great if a few theater goers were armed that day. It would have been great if there were off&on duty cops there too. Even better if a SEAL team was there. It may have ended sooner. Regardless, at least they would have had more of a chance. Sad you don't share my same viewpoint there, but duck and cover was so 1950's.
Also, it is ignorant and shallow to assume that just because someone hasn't undergone the same training as a soldier, that they are rendered helpless and devoid of the instincts to successfully bring resolution in a high-stress situation. While yes, there are people like that out there (I'd argue that the vast majority of those, don't carry but, instead are the ones who substitute self defense for under the guise of restrictive law that
should theoretically prevent evildoers from harming innocent people), but I'd argue that the CWP holder doesn't fit that stereotype. Am I asserting that myself and other CWP holders are ready to be door kickers or shoot a bunch of invading roos'? Shit no (c'ept for that roo part), but I never claimed them to be. Honestly, who would be? Sure the military may be better prepared to go to war, but even then, some of those people choke. However, I would be willing to try and prevent further loss of life. Just like the principal in that school was. But going back to the cited movie theater massacre above, people come from all
walks of life, just because the are a civilian doesn't mean they can't and shouldn't be afforded the right to adequately defend themselves. Not every teacher is a career teacher either. I recall I had several teachers that were ex-military.
A lunatic perpetrates an act of lunacy (like the movie-theater shooting). Trying to stop the lunatic using the same right as he is abusing, is the opposite of lunacy. I'd submit that lunacy is fucking over the law-abiding public by ensuring through prohibition that only the lunatic will be armed.
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And now 13rin is suggesting that the ideal way to counter mad buggers shooting up schools is to arm teachers - hopefully give them some combat training too though. Fucking Hell, teachers teach, that is their job. Already they're put under pressure to know to deal with seizures and allergies as well as ensuring the fat bastards get some exercise. You're saying that now they should carry firearms and have to be bodyguards too? To be the first responder, to engage a suicidal gunman in a firefight? I think a big pay rise should come with this, don't you? But of course, only for those who want to. And what teacher or principal wouldn't want to have that fun responsibility?
I stand by my assessment but read closely cause you missed it the first time around, let those that
want to carry conceal, carry. Offer courses. Level the field and allow them the tools to protect themselves and their students. Regardless of new laws and restrictions, (that bad guys don't adhere to anyways), the options now are for school administrators and teachers to flee or be human shields.
The reality of the situation is that protecting their Students has always been their responsibility, like it or not. In my mind there is no difference between arming willing teachers and pilots. In both situations they are already trusted with precious life, why not give them tools to help them preserve it too. Teachers are the first responders. Look to those teachers and the principal that were slaughtered. They stayed behind to try and protect their students. Sadly, they had no means to.
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Fighting fire with fire is pointless. The fire just gets bigger and everyone gets burned.
Wrong. And, that's what Red Adiar would tell you too. Google how his crews would put out oil well fires. A few was of fighting fire with fire (you've never heard of that expression?), and yes they do it all the time are: Controlled burns conducted on land in the path of in advancing wildfire. Also prescribe burns are routinely conducted by State Wildlife Officials as to help prevent forest fires and lessen the severity of those that do occur.
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Also before I'm accused of anything again I'll reiterate that I don't think guns are the problem I think the gun culture is - and not the huntin' and shootin' side of it, the side that approaches every problem, (including problems associated with guns,) with "use more gun'"
Heh... So if the hunting and shooting side isn't the problem too, why were you mocking Texans for slapping a can on their deer gun? I really don't think do believe what you typed there, as I've heard that same line time and time again by those who follow it up with a suggested idea for another unnecessary, and pointless restrictions on firearms.
KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
I don't disagree with this, forcing principals to take training. I don't really care if the teacher/principal takes the same type of training a police officer or military would receive - because just handing a teacher a gun isn't going to turn him into random hero. But what happens if/when the principal or teacher gets shot? Sue the school/district/county/state?
Right, just handing a teacher a gun isn't going to turn him/her into a random hero. That's why CWP for teacher would be voluntary only.
What do you mean about "what happens if/when the principal or teacher gets shot"? Look at the principal in this massacre. Again, she was going into that classroom come hell or highwater and going to try and stop him. Sadly, She never had a chance. With respect to who to sue for a fuckup? Look at the statistics of CWP holders. We're not nutjobs. We're a responsible group. I'm willing to accept all liability. I'd even be willing to sign a waiver stating so (if I was a teacher).
RAIMIUS wrote:
13rin wrote:
CWP's for teachers that qualify and want it.
I bolded the important part. If people are willing to take the time and effort to get good training and go through the process to do it, more power to them. We don't know the Principal's views on guns, so let's not speculate on whether she would have been armed without the "gun free zone" farce. (Farce because it is nothing more than a sign and the threat to call the cops/fire you if you violate it.)
I think at that end of the day it would be the principals responsibility to be trained, just like teachers have to be trained in CPR. If not the principal, then an assistant principal or two. But, yea... I would agree with that. Last thing one needs is for that responsibility to be forced upon them.
The gun free zone is a farce. It is a beacon to all evildoers that the law-abiding citizens aren't going to be able to meet force with force.
I don't know. I like the idea of a cop there more. If it were to boil down to that I would rather see a bit more than your standard cwp, some kind of training on how to deal with that kind of a situation. And not so much in each classroom a safe in the building that could be easily accesed.
Sure stick a resource officer there. I'd also put the principals gun in a safe as well. Why not offer courses to the teachers to deal with that. The CWP teacher deal with adding an unknown element to who the psycho knows will be trying to stop him/her. The police officer is an automatic target. The ROTC guy would be an automatic target. However, knowing that many teachers are armed and not knowing which ones, would be a plus.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
