Well that's kinda my point. He carried the attack out with what was available to him, and killed 77. If Norways firearm laws were more lax, how many more would he have killed? If Norways firearms laws were tighter, how many less would have been killed?Extra Medium wrote:
Yes, as I said, he carried it out anyways with what was available to him. People keep saying that America should ban handguns and AR's, but all that tells me is that the number of shotgun rampages would increase. Ban shotguns and the number of stabbings or arsons increases so on and so forth.jord wrote:
He didn't see obtaining the weapons he wanted through though, he gave up. He used what was legally available to him in Norway.Extra Medium wrote:
With a Class 3 FFL you can, but with the amount of background checks and fee's and the odds of actually being approved, the chances of someone getting a Class 3 with the intent to kill is virtually 0%.jsnipy wrote:
thought you could somehow with some permit from the ATF
It failed to save 77.
Your argument of how hard it was to acquire these weapons only goes to further my point of how someone who is willing and determined to commit such acts with spare no effort to see them through.
Breivik was as effective as he was largely due to the poor response to authorities. Poor communication and a lack of experience lead to Breivik being left time to do all the damage he could, and he did a lot. The simple fact that this sort of thing just doesn't happen on Norway was one of the reasons so many people died.
But Breivik is a serious psychopath. He planned for years. He travelled. He went through all the processes, did all the proper training, put on all the necessary acts. So while it proves that all the checks and legislation in the world is not going to prevent a determined psychopath like Breivik I don't see how you can argue it wouldn't stop a few deranged middle class kids like Adam Lanza or James Holmes.
But Breivik is a serious psychopath. He planned for years. He travelled. He went through all the processes, did all the proper training, put on all the necessary acts. So while it proves that all the checks and legislation in the world is not going to prevent a determined psychopath like Breivik I don't see how you can argue it wouldn't stop a few deranged middle class kids like Adam Lanza or James Holmes.
[Blinking eyes thing]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
Yeah? Well that's just, like, your opinion, man.Ty wrote:
Breivik was as effective as he was largely due to the poor response to authorities. Poor communication and a lack of experience lead to Breivik being left time to do all the damage he could, and he did a lot. The simple fact that this sort of thing just doesn't happen on Norway was one of the reasons so many people died.
But Breivik is a serious psychopath. He planned for years. He travelled. He went through all the processes, did all the proper training, put on all the necessary acts. So while it proves that all the checks and legislation in the world is not going to prevent a determined psychopath like Breivik I don't see how you can argue it wouldn't stop a few deranged middle class kids like Adam Lanza or James Holmes.
I wish there were better support systems in place for mentally ill people. Before they do something drastic. Before they cross the line into committing acts that cannot be undone.Ty wrote:
Breivik was as effective as he was largely due to the poor response to authorities. Poor communication and a lack of experience lead to Breivik being left time to do all the damage he could, and he did a lot. The simple fact that this sort of thing just doesn't happen on Norway was one of the reasons so many people died.
But Breivik is a serious psychopath. He planned for years. He travelled. He went through all the processes, did all the proper training, put on all the necessary acts. So while it proves that all the checks and legislation in the world is not going to prevent a determined psychopath like Breivik I don't see how you can argue it wouldn't stop a few deranged middle class kids like Adam Lanza or James Holmes.
Doesn't matter if they use guns, matches, knives, explosives, or anything else. Most of these murderers were clearly recognized as being more than a little disturbed before they killed anyone, and they did not get the help or guidance needed to keep them from committing atrocities.
Early intervention has been proven to dramatically help mentally ill people (not just those rare few who may turn into psychopaths). I wish governments would take it more seriously.
Last edited by Jaekus (2012-12-16 21:33:32)
You don't think that violates the innocent until proven guilty foundation of our society? I do. Plenty of people deal with bullshit and don't snap. Should we lock up every introvert or Aspie? Because that's what the kid was.Jaekus wrote:
Early intervention has been proven to dramatically help mentally ill people (not just those rare few who may turn into psychopaths). I wish governments would take it more seriously.
Besides, psychology is way more art than science and they constantly redefine what they consider mental illness. I'd hate to see people picked up in the dragnet only to say 'oops, sorry' a few months later when they change the criteria. There's no way to provide the intervention you seek without being invasive in peoples private lives. It's just not worth that cost.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Are you relating an early intervention program to "innocent until proven guilty"? That's an awfully large stretch, man. Even for you. Mental illness is treatable, and more importantly isn't a crime. Shooting up a school is. Isn't that more important than keeping a guy out of the prison system, and keeping kiddies a live. You can even keep your guns!Jay wrote:
You don't think that violates the innocent until proven guilty foundation of our society? I do. Plenty of people deal with bullshit and don't snap. Should we lock up every introvert or Aspie? Because that's what the kid was.Jaekus wrote:
Early intervention has been proven to dramatically help mentally ill people (not just those rare few who may turn into psychopaths). I wish governments would take it more seriously.
Besides, psychology is way more art than science and they constantly redefine what they consider mental illness. I'd hate to see people picked up in the dragnet only to say 'oops, sorry' a few months later when they change the criteria. There's no way to provide the intervention you seek without being invasive in peoples private lives. It's just not worth that cost.
Jay wrote:
Besides, psychology is way more art than science and they constantly redefine what they consider mental illness.
This post tells me two things:Jay wrote:
You don't think that violates the innocent until proven guilty foundation of our society? I do. Plenty of people deal with bullshit and don't snap. Should we lock up every introvert or Aspie? Because that's what the kid was.Jaekus wrote:
Early intervention has been proven to dramatically help mentally ill people (not just those rare few who may turn into psychopaths). I wish governments would take it more seriously.
Besides, psychology is way more art than science and they constantly redefine what they consider mental illness. I'd hate to see people picked up in the dragnet only to say 'oops, sorry' a few months later when they change the criteria. There's no way to provide the intervention you seek without being invasive in peoples private lives. It's just not worth that cost.
1) you don't know what early intervention is;
2) you don't understand much about psychology.
Last edited by Jaekus (2012-12-17 01:34:56)
In pretty much all cases they deny it themselves and refuse any help that's offered (more often than not they'll get mad / angry with you for even implying that they need help). Hence only extreme cases and the odd ones out that can acknowledge that they have issues get help.rdx-fx wrote:
I wish there were better support systems in place for mentally ill people. Before they do something drastic. Before they cross the line into committing acts that cannot be undone.Ty wrote:
Breivik was as effective as he was largely due to the poor response to authorities. Poor communication and a lack of experience lead to Breivik being left time to do all the damage he could, and he did a lot. The simple fact that this sort of thing just doesn't happen on Norway was one of the reasons so many people died.
But Breivik is a serious psychopath. He planned for years. He travelled. He went through all the processes, did all the proper training, put on all the necessary acts. So while it proves that all the checks and legislation in the world is not going to prevent a determined psychopath like Breivik I don't see how you can argue it wouldn't stop a few deranged middle class kids like Adam Lanza or James Holmes.
Doesn't matter if they use guns, matches, knives, explosives, or anything else. Most of these murderers were clearly recognized as being more than a little disturbed before they killed anyone, and they did not get the help or guidance needed to keep them from committing atrocities.
Not much you can do it about it.
inane little opines
Psychopathy is very rare and hard to detect unless the person does something overt. There is a general stereotype that your average psychopath is your typical Patrick Bateman (mid 30s, white collar, middle class, well groomed, polite, no empathy for other people, etc); a friend is a psych nurse and said one person she has worked with in the maximum security psych prison (where everyone is in there for murder) fits this stereotype to a tee. He's also the one "true" psychopath there as he's killed seven people and has admitted if released he would kill again, and said he feels no remorse for what he has done. These people are literally one in every million people. As a comparison, globally (and it is pretty consistent from country to country) schizophrenia affects one in a hundred people, with slightly higher figures for bipolar and depression; anxiety disorder is the most commonly diagnosed mental illness.
tl;dr psychopathy is very rare and almost always diagnosed after the fact.
tl;dr psychopathy is very rare and almost always diagnosed after the fact.
Last edited by Jaekus (2012-12-17 02:21:15)
Are we even sure its psychopaths who commit mass killing sprees? Seems thats exactly what they wouldn't do.
Fuck Israel
That's a good point actually. I don't know enough about it to draw a proper distinction but the typical psychopath gets some sort of uncontrollable urge to kill, and can sometimes go for years between murders. Killing spree is more someone snapping and doing something they probably expect to not get out of alive.
Last edited by Jaekus (2012-12-17 03:52:07)
Mental care is very poor everywhere. Several cases, not necessarily killers, don't get the care they need and even want. Some headcases have said it straight up that they were seeking for help but got turned down. One dude that got sent home went the next day and stabbed a young girl to death just because he wasn't allowed in. Now he has someone to talk to and receives help but the cost of it all was kinda high.
Ok, how do you define a cold, detached, ruthless person? Sounds like a good businessman or politician to me, but they're also the primary traits of the mass murderer, with a touch of Aspie thrown in. Also, the guy was basically a hermit living with his mother, do you really expect a mother to expect the worst from her child and ask the authorities for help?Jaekus wrote:
This post tells me two things:Jay wrote:
You don't think that violates the innocent until proven guilty foundation of our society? I do. Plenty of people deal with bullshit and don't snap. Should we lock up every introvert or Aspie? Because that's what the kid was.Jaekus wrote:
Early intervention has been proven to dramatically help mentally ill people (not just those rare few who may turn into psychopaths). I wish governments would take it more seriously.
Besides, psychology is way more art than science and they constantly redefine what they consider mental illness. I'd hate to see people picked up in the dragnet only to say 'oops, sorry' a few months later when they change the criteria. There's no way to provide the intervention you seek without being invasive in peoples private lives. It's just not worth that cost.
1) you don't know what early intervention is;
2) you don't understand much about psychology.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/1 … 11009.htmlWritten by Liza Long, republished from The Blue Review
Friday’s horrific national tragedy -- the murder of 20 children and six adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut -- has ignited a new discussion on violence in America. In kitchens and coffee shops across the country, we tearfully debate the many faces of violence in America: gun culture, media violence, lack of mental health services, overt and covert wars abroad, religion, politics and the way we raise our children. Liza Long, a writer based in Boise, says it’s easy to talk about guns. But it’s time to talk about mental illness.
While every family's story of mental illness is different, and we may never know the whole of the Lanza's story, tales like this one need to be heard -- and families who live them deserve our help.
Three days before 20 year-old Adam Lanza killed his mother, then opened fire on a classroom full of Connecticut kindergartners, my 13-year old son Michael (name changed) missed his bus because he was wearing the wrong color pants.
“I can wear these pants,” he said, his tone increasingly belligerent, the black-hole pupils of his eyes swallowing the blue irises.
“They are navy blue,” I told him. “Your school’s dress code says black or khaki pants only.”
“They told me I could wear these,” he insisted. “You’re a stupid bitch. I can wear whatever pants I want to. This is America. I have rights!”
“You can’t wear whatever pants you want to,” I said, my tone affable, reasonable. “And you definitely cannot call me a stupid bitch. You’re grounded from electronics for the rest of the day. Now get in the car, and I will take you to school.”
I live with a son who is mentally ill. I love my son. But he terrifies me.
A few weeks ago, Michael pulled a knife and threatened to kill me and then himself after I asked him to return his overdue library books. His 7 and 9 year old siblings knew the safety plan -- they ran to the car and locked the doors before I even asked them to. I managed to get the knife from Michael, then methodically collected all the sharp objects in the house into a single Tupperware container that now travels with me. Through it all, he continued to scream insults at me and threaten to kill or hurt me.
That conflict ended with three burly police officers and a paramedic wrestling my son onto a gurney for an expensive ambulance ride to the local emergency room. The mental hospital didn’t have any beds that day, and Michael calmed down nicely in the ER, so they sent us home with a prescription for Zyprexa and a follow-up visit with a local pediatric psychiatrist.
We still don’t know what’s wrong with Michael. Autism spectrum, ADHD, Oppositional Defiant or Intermittent Explosive Disorder have all been tossed around at various meetings with probation officers and social workers and counselors and teachers and school administrators. He’s been on a slew of antipsychotic and mood altering pharmaceuticals, a Russian novel of behavioral plans. Nothing seems to work.
At the start of seventh grade, Michael was accepted to an accelerated program for highly gifted math and science students. His IQ is off the charts. When he’s in a good mood, he will gladly bend your ear on subjects ranging from Greek mythology to the differences between Einsteinian and Newtonian physics to Doctor Who. He’s in a good mood most of the time. But when he’s not, watch out. And it’s impossible to predict what will set him off.
Several weeks into his new junior high school, Michael began exhibiting increasingly odd and threatening behaviors at school. We decided to transfer him to the district’s most restrictive behavioral program, a contained school environment where children who can’t function in normal classrooms can access their right to free public babysitting from 7:30-1:50 Monday through Friday until they turn 18.
The morning of the pants incident, Michael continued to argue with me on the drive. He would occasionally apologize and seem remorseful. Right before we turned into his school parking lot, he said, “Look, Mom, I’m really sorry. Can I have video games back today?”
“No way,” I told him. “You cannot act the way you acted this morning and think you can get your electronic privileges back that quickly.”
His face turned cold, and his eyes were full of calculated rage. “Then I’m going to kill myself,” he said. “I’m going to jump out of this car right now and kill myself.”
That was it. After the knife incident, I told him that if he ever said those words again, I would take him straight to the mental hospital, no ifs, ands, or buts. I did not respond, except to pull the car into the opposite lane, turning left instead of right.
“Where are you taking me?” he said, suddenly worried. “Where are we going?”
“You know where we are going,” I replied.
“No! You can’t do that to me! You’re sending me to hell! You’re sending me straight to hell!”
I pulled up in front of the hospital, frantically waiving for one of the clinicians who happened to be standing outside. “Call the police,” I said. “Hurry.”
Michael was in a full-blown fit by then, screaming and hitting. I hugged him close so he couldn’t escape from the car. He bit me several times and repeatedly jabbed his elbows into my rib cage. I’m still stronger than he is, but I won’t be for much longer.
The police came quickly and carried my son screaming and kicking into the bowels of the hospital. I started to shake, and tears filled my eyes as I filled out the paperwork -- “Were there any difficulties with… at what age did your child… were there any problems with.. has your child ever experienced.. does your child have…”
At least we have health insurance now. I recently accepted a position with a local college, giving up my freelance career because when you have a kid like this, you need benefits. You’ll do anything for benefits. No individual insurance plan will cover this kind of thing.
For days, my son insisted that I was lying -- that I made the whole thing up so that I could get rid of him. The first day, when I called to check up on him, he said, “I hate you. And I’m going to get my revenge as soon as I get out of here.”
By day three, he was my calm, sweet boy again, all apologies and promises to get better. I’ve heard those promises for years. I don’t believe them anymore.
On the intake form, under the question, “What are your expectations for treatment?” I wrote, “I need help.”
And I do. This problem is too big for me to handle on my own. Sometimes there are no good options. So you just pray for grace and trust that in hindsight, it will all make sense.
I am sharing this story because I am Adam Lanza’s mother. I am Dylan Klebold’s and Eric Harris’s mother. I am James Holmes’s mother. I am Jared Loughner’s mother. I am Seung-Hui Cho’s mother. And these boys—and their mothers—need help. In the wake of another horrific national tragedy, it’s easy to talk about guns. But it’s time to talk about mental illness.
According to Mother Jones, since 1982, 61 mass murders involving firearms have occurred throughout the country. Of these, 43 of the killers were white males, and only one was a woman. Mother Jones focused on whether the killers obtained their guns legally (most did). But this highly visible sign of mental illness should lead us to consider how many people in the U.S. live in fear, like I do.
When I asked my son’s social worker about my options, he said that the only thing I could do was to get Michael charged with a crime. “If he’s back in the system, they’ll create a paper trail,” he said. “That’s the only way you’re ever going to get anything done. No one will pay attention to you unless you’ve got charges.”
I don’t believe my son belongs in jail. The chaotic environment exacerbates Michael’s sensitivity to sensory stimuli and doesn’t deal with the underlying pathology. But it seems like the United States is using prison as the solution of choice for mentally ill people. According to Human Rights Watch, the number of mentally ill inmates in U.S. prisons quadrupled from 2000 to 2006, and it continues to rise -- in fact, the rate of inmate mental illness is five times greater (56 percent) than in the non-incarcerated population.
With state-run treatment centers and hospitals shuttered, prison is now the last resort for the mentally ill -- Rikers Island, the LA County Jail and Cook County Jail in Illinois housed the nation’s largest treatment centers in 2011.
No one wants to send a 13-year old genius who loves Harry Potter and his snuggle animal collection to jail. But our society, with its stigma on mental illness and its broken healthcare system, does not provide us with other options. Then another tortured soul shoots up a fast food restaurant. A mall. A kindergarten classroom. And we wring our hands and say, “Something must be done.”
I agree that something must be done. It’s time for a meaningful, nation-wide conversation about mental health. That’s the only way our nation can ever truly heal.
God help me. God help Michael. God help us all.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
That article is so fucking stupid. It has been getting torn to bits. Funny you should in one breath say that pyschology don't real and in the next post some pseudo psychology bullshit.
http://now.msn.com/you-are-not-adam-lan … goes-viralA confrontational counter-blast to Liza Long's much-shared piece, "I Am Adam Lanza's Mother" has going viral in response. Posted at thegirlwhowasthursday's blog, the new piece, "You Are Not Adam Lanza's Mother" chastises the Boise-based mom for dehumanizing the mentally ill, who are statistically much more likely to be the victims of crimes than the perpetrators. Among other things, the essay notes that Long's son is presented solely as a problem, than antipsychotic and antidepressant medications are not designed for children, and that Long criticizes the stigma against the mentally ill but also reinforces it by linking mental illness and violence. Commenters have responded strongly to the piece, with some calling it judgmental or insensitive, while others praise it as a voice of reason.
Last edited by Macbeth (2012-12-17 07:33:18)
Of course it is. Did I say I agreed with it?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Nice back peddle. So every time you post one of those REASON.COM articles without anything else we all should have assumed all of this time that you disagree with all of it.
Suuuure
Suuuure
No, I just posted that article because it had gone viral on my wall this morning and it was relevant to the discussion.Macbeth wrote:
Nice back peddle. So every time you post one of those REASON.COM articles without anything else we all should have assumed all of this time that you disagree with all of it.
Suuuure
So why don't you give us your take on mental health issues since you're the resident expert?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Suuure you did.
I do have some storys
I do have some storys
Jay wrote:
Ok, how do you define a cold, detached, ruthless person? Sounds like a good businessman or politician to me, but they're also the primary traits of the mass murderer, with a touch of Aspie thrown in. Also, the guy was basically a hermit living with his mother, do you really expect a mother to expect the worst from her child and ask the authorities for help?Jaekus wrote:
This post tells me two things:Jay wrote:
You don't think that violates the innocent until proven guilty foundation of our society? I do. Plenty of people deal with bullshit and don't snap. Should we lock up every introvert or Aspie? Because that's what the kid was.
Besides, psychology is way more art than science and they constantly redefine what they consider mental illness. I'd hate to see people picked up in the dragnet only to say 'oops, sorry' a few months later when they change the criteria. There's no way to provide the intervention you seek without being invasive in peoples private lives. It's just not worth that cost.
1) you don't know what early intervention is;
2) you don't understand much about psychology.
ie. there's no real way to detect or prevent these things from ever occurring and people are considered psychopathic due to their actions, arrest and subsequent psychological assessment. Because it is so rare, unless you're giving the broader population in depth psychiatric assessments you're never really going to pick it up. Of course if it is picked up then it may be possible for the person to learn to control their psychopathic nature.Jaekus wrote:
Psychopathy is very rare and hard to detect unless the person does something overt. (edit: to my knowledge)
Early intervention in gerenal is more to do with recognising the early signs of the more common mental illnesses (particularly schizophrenia and bipolar disorder) where possible and give the support and necessary treatment to prevent the illness becoming more acute, thus helping the person live a better quality of life. It is usually targeted at teenagers to young adults, as mental illnesses like schizophrenia and bipolar have a big trend to manifest around these ages (usually a couple years younger for males compared to females).
The study of psychology is not an art, it's a science. The human mind is very complex and there is still so much we have not yet learned. There is evidence supporting the theory that schizophrenia is genetic and that bipolar is hereditary. Smoking pot does not cause schizophrenia but may trigger an earlier onset of schizophrenia in those who would have one day developed it anyway. Anyway, I'm going off on tangents now. I'm no expert but I have learned quite a lot in my four or so years working with the mentally ill.
Absolutely. Some mentally ill people are among some of the most vulnerable people in the community.Macb wrote:
the mentally ill, who are statistically much more likely to be the victims of crimes than the perpetrators.
Last edited by Jaekus (2012-12-17 08:03:49)
Macbeth wrote:
the mentally ill, who are statistically much more likely to be the victims of crimes than the perpetrators.
You're mostly correct, but missing a critical distinction in there.Jaekus wrote:
Absolutely. Some mentally ill people are among some of the most vulnerable people in the community.
For all crimes, from harassment to murder & rape, the mentally ill and mentally challenged are, as a percentage, more likely to be victims than the average person. Predators and assholes look for the weak and vulnerable to prey upon.
For random acts of mass murder, however, you pretty much have to be mentally ill to commit such an act.
Sane people don't purposely kill a bunch of kids.
In logical form;
All mentally ill people are not mass murderers, all mass murderers are mentally ill.
I am NOT implying that the mentally ill should be stigmatized or criminalized. I am saying that mental illness needs to be more widely recognized, less stigmatized, and better treated. It does not matter if someone uses matches, knives, guns, fists, rape, or explosives - it matters that there are too many unstable mentally ill people with too little support, supervision, and hope.
A life of internal torment, external harassment and derision, and a world that seems to direct nothing but hate & pain (or apathy and nothingness) at them - it is not terribly surprising that some of them snap and bring that hate and pain back at the world.
We don't need more cops or more laws - we need more psychiatrists and better funded hospitals for the mentally ill, and less social stigma attached to mental illness.