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2012-11-27 15:07:58
Extra Medium
THE UZI SLAYER
+79|4434|Oklahoma
I was looking around at the U.S. debt information and I really don't see why this is so difficult to resolve.  Allow me to elaborate:

https://www.unitedexplanations.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/unexp_graphshot24_llt.jpg

1. End the wars.
2. End the Bush tax cuts.
3. Completely cut Social Security but keep Medicare.
4. Reduce military spending by 15%.


Just axe the shit out of this stuff.  Liberals are happy because the wars end, we lose the Bush tax cuts and we have a smaller military, conservatives are happy because we axed a major entitlement program.

Old people will be mad, but I'd rather have 90 million pissed off old people now than 150 million pissed off old people in 30 years when we can't pay for it anymore.  The militants will be mad, but goddamn, we out pace everyone elses military in the world ten-fold and nobody fights big ass wars like the old days anymore, why do we need 8,725 Abrams tanks when we just toppled two governments and lost maybe 10?


They should treat it like a band-aid, just do it really fast, deal with the pain, recover and feel better.
2012-11-27 15:12:51
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5418|Sydney
90 million = votes = losing government.
2012-11-27 15:16:21
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7011|PNW

So what are you going to tell the people who've been "investing" in social security for decades? And how the fuck is it an entitlement program if your tax money is going into it with the promise that you'll get something back?
2012-11-27 15:42:56
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5597|London, England

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

So what are you going to tell the people who've been "investing" in social security for decades? And how the fuck is it an entitlement program if your tax money is going into it with the promise that you'll get something back?
Because they've been lying about it since day one? If it were going into some sort of retirement account, then the argument would be valid, but the program is simply a transfer system. They take money out of our paycheck and cut a check to retirees. If you wrote a check every month to your grandparents it would be the exact same system. It's sold differently, but it's same thing as welfare, except it doesn't have any requirement besides being of retirement age and you or your spouse having paid into the system for a few years.

Last edited by Jay (2012-11-27 15:43:32)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2012-11-27 15:56:37
pirana6
Go Cougs!
+691|6530|Washington St.
re: social security, my plan:

every year add a year on the age at which you can start withdrawing it. What is it now? 62? 65? 67? Whatever, every year add a year. So if (for example) it's 65 now, make it 66 next year, 67 the year after that, etc. BUT make it that age for each person turning 16 that year (or 21 or some age). So if you turn 16 in 2013 you can withdraw it starting at age 66. Turn 16 in 2014 - 67.

Also, if you turn 16 in 2013 then you pay 2% less over your lifetime (the percent MORE you work until you can use SS, i.e. 66-15 = 50, 1/50 = .02. My math is correct right? I'm fucking tired).

Continue this until the age is 200 or some age that will never happen so it's phased out.


This is my plan that I came up with just now off the top of my head so criticisms are welcome.... There's no huge immediate change that will piss millions off (heck the people it will piss off aren't even born yet).
2012-11-27 16:06:10
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5597|London, England
But here's the reality:
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/51395/Screen%20Shot%202012-11-27%20at%206.54.09%20PM.png
http://www.statisticbrain.com/american- … tatistics/

Whether that's due to the recession, or if it's a systematic reliance on future Medicare and Social Security benefits that people expect to be there when they retire, people aren't saving a damn thing in this country. It's nice to sit here and talk about removing entitlements from the budget but the very real fact is that it's not possible. It would require a complete remaking of American culture and spending habits, spending habits that our economy has become dependent on to drive growth.

Our government does not encourage saving and investing, it encourages spending and debt to prop up GDP. It's why things like the mortgage tax break exist. They want people buying homes now, not saving for them and buying them next year. Banks and the real estate industry want the former, it keeps home prices up and they make more money.

When people have money saved they have the ability to drop out of the workforce for periods of time. This allows them to be choosier when selecting their next job, and forces wages up. Again, the government does not want this, because businesses do not want this. It's also why inflation is built into our system. If you save without investing, the value of your money will erode over time, roughly halving in value every fifty years. This forces you to keep working. The biggest way for anyone to empower them self is to save and invest their money. The system as set up now is designed to entice you away from that option. Spend spend spend! Spend all your money on Black Friday and Cyber Monday! Buy that home now! Keep up with the Jones'! Live in the moment! Don't worry about your retirement, we have that covered! Spend now!

Last edited by Jay (2012-11-27 16:08:22)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2012-11-27 16:14:23
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7011|PNW

Jay wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

So what are you going to tell the people who've been "investing" in social security for decades? And how the fuck is it an entitlement program if your tax money is going into it with the promise that you'll get something back?
Because they've been lying about it since day one? If it were going into some sort of retirement account, then the argument would be valid, but the program is simply a transfer system. They take money out of our paycheck and cut a check to retirees. If you wrote a check every month to your grandparents it would be the exact same system. It's sold differently, but it's same thing as welfare, except it doesn't have any requirement besides being of retirement age and you or your spouse having paid into the system for a few years.
Give me money and I'll give you money later.

Later: I'm in debt. I'll just keep all the money. Sorry, guys. HAHAHAHA.
2012-11-27 16:36:09
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5597|London, England
Personally, I'd like to see Social Security and Medicare gone. I'd advocate an expansion of welfare and medicaid to those seniors that qualify to offset the loss of the two other programs. The genuine poor don't make enough money to save anything which is why some sort of social safety net should stay in place. Those who do make enough to save and choose not to don't deserve sympathy imo. If they hit retirement and have nothing saved, they can get tossed into the welfare net and all the bullshit that entails. Those who did save shouldn't need SS or Medicare.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2012-11-27 16:38:04
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,979|6871|949

Jay wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

So what are you going to tell the people who've been "investing" in social security for decades? And how the fuck is it an entitlement program if your tax money is going into it with the promise that you'll get something back?
They take money out of our paycheck and cut a check to retirees. If you wrote a check every month to your grandparents it would be the exact same system.
No, because my grandparents aren't going to start writing me checks in 35 years when I retire.  Try again.

But, social security does need an overhaul.  So do other pieces of that pie.
2012-11-27 16:39:56
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5597|London, England

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Jay wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

So what are you going to tell the people who've been "investing" in social security for decades? And how the fuck is it an entitlement program if your tax money is going into it with the promise that you'll get something back?
They take money out of our paycheck and cut a check to retirees. If you wrote a check every month to your grandparents it would be the exact same system.
No, because my grandparents aren't going to start writing me checks in 35 years when I retire.  Try again.
What? It would be equivalent to your grandkids writing you checks.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2012-11-27 17:15:49
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,979|6871|949

Jay wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Jay wrote:


They take money out of our paycheck and cut a check to retirees. If you wrote a check every month to your grandparents it would be the exact same system.
No, because my grandparents aren't going to start writing me checks in 35 years when I retire.  Try again.
What? It would be equivalent to your grandkids writing you checks.
How so?
2012-11-27 17:18:51
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6929|Tampa Bay Florida
Isn't Medicare really the main thing that is sending the entire budget out of whack?  Whatever you think of social security, it's going to be fine until 2030 something.  That's pretty good for a government program imo.
2012-11-27 17:28:14
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5597|London, England

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Jay wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:


No, because my grandparents aren't going to start writing me checks in 35 years when I retire.  Try again.
What? It would be equivalent to your grandkids writing you checks.
How so?
A portion of your paycheck is taken out every pay cycle. It is taken by the government and they cut checks to current retirees. The rest gets tossed into the general fund and is spent. There is no SS bank account. There is no trust. If you cut out the middleman and cut the check directly to your retired grandparents there would be no difference. When you reached retirement age, if your working aged kids and grandkids set aside a portion of their pay and mailed it to you every month on the first, it would be equivalent. The money that we have drawn from us by the government every month is never saved, never invested, it is a pure transfer system. Taking from one and giving to another. In this case it is taking from workers and giving it to retirees.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2012-11-27 17:30:10
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5597|London, England

Spearhead wrote:

Isn't Medicare really the main thing that is sending the entire budget out of whack?  Whatever you think of social security, it's going to be fine until 2030 something.  That's pretty good for a government program imo.
That's cool. I'm scheduled to start drawing payments from the system in 2048. Guess I'm shit out of luck eh? Fuck baby boomers.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2012-11-27 17:32:15
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5825

You are going to be fucked when you find yourself 45 with 3 kids and mortgage while training the team of Asian students that will replace you.
2012-11-27 17:32:45
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6929|Tampa Bay Florida
My point is that having 20 years to fix something is an eternity in politics.  It will get fixed, one way or another.  It's not the cuban missile crisis FFS.
2012-11-27 17:34:17
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5597|London, England

Spearhead wrote:

My point is that having 20 years to fix something is an eternity in politics.  It will get fixed, one way or another.  It's not the cuban missile crisis FFS.
Bullshit it will. They never touch anything that will lose them votes. It's much easier for them to buy votes with unrealistic promises and expensive handouts and let the country go bankrupt after they're dead or retired.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2012-11-27 17:34:51
13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|6736

Macbeth wrote:

You are going to be fucked when you find yourself 45 with 3 kids and mortgage while training the team of Asian students that will replace you.
it's true. except for the kids part in my case. and the asian students, utah is lily white. i do have a mortgage though, with 14 yrs. left on it.
2012-11-27 17:56:35
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,979|6871|949

Jay wrote:

Spearhead wrote:

Isn't Medicare really the main thing that is sending the entire budget out of whack?  Whatever you think of social security, it's going to be fine until 2030 something.  That's pretty good for a government program imo.
That's cool. I'm scheduled to start drawing payments from the system in 2048. Guess I'm shit out of luck eh? Fuck baby boomers.
What makes you think the government won't inject more money into it like they have done in the past?  Why assume it will just fail?  You realize you're just conceptualizing a doom-and-gloom scenario, right?
2012-11-27 18:00:53
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6929|Tampa Bay Florida

Jay wrote:

Spearhead wrote:

My point is that having 20 years to fix something is an eternity in politics.  It will get fixed, one way or another.  It's not the cuban missile crisis FFS.
Bullshit it will. They never touch anything that will lose them votes. It's much easier for them to buy votes with unrealistic promises and expensive handouts and let the country go bankrupt after they're dead or retired.
600,000 men died in the Civil War.  In 4 years.  This is a bunch of numbers on a balance sheet.  It will get fixed....
2012-11-27 18:03:49
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,979|6871|949

Jay wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Jay wrote:


What? It would be equivalent to your grandkids writing you checks.
How so?
A portion of your paycheck is taken out every pay cycle. It is taken by the government and they cut checks to current retirees. The rest gets tossed into the general fund and is spent. There is no SS bank account. There is no trust. If you cut out the middleman and cut the check directly to your retired grandparents there would be no difference. When you reached retirement age, if your working aged kids and grandkids set aside a portion of their pay and mailed it to you every month on the first, it would be equivalent. The money that we have drawn from us by the government every month is never saved, never invested, it is a pure transfer system. Taking from one and giving to another. In this case it is taking from workers and giving it to retirees.
It goes into a general fund - this is what I wanted you to say.  I understand it is never saved, never invested, etc.  What I'm trying to understand is why you think for some reason in 2048 you won't get the money you put in even though there's no evidence it will happen, in fact historical precedent for it NOT happening.

Personally, I have no problem paying into a guaranteed government retirement program - I'm either going to pay for it on the front end or I'm going to pay for it on the back end (through welfare and other increased costs because people can't/won't/don't want to save for retirement).  At least I know I will be getting money back for what I put in (and in a lot of cases, MORE than I put in).  It's surely not the best way to go about it, and I would like to see proper accounting set up across the board for government spending.  I wonder why people single out social security out of all government programs when there are accounting and spending issues in virtually every piece of that pie.
2012-11-27 18:08:55
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5418|Sydney
So glad we have a compulsory superannuation system in Australia.

So hope I have enough in there by the time I retire.
2012-11-27 18:09:24
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5597|London, England

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Jay wrote:

Spearhead wrote:

Isn't Medicare really the main thing that is sending the entire budget out of whack?  Whatever you think of social security, it's going to be fine until 2030 something.  That's pretty good for a government program imo.
That's cool. I'm scheduled to start drawing payments from the system in 2048. Guess I'm shit out of luck eh? Fuck baby boomers.
What makes you think the government won't inject more money into it like they have done in the past?  Why assume it will just fail?  You realize you're just conceptualizing a doom-and-gloom scenario, right?
Because the system was designed as a pyramid back when people were having four or five kids. We're entering a situation where there are a lot less people supporting each retiree. My grandparents had seven kids, they have 13 grand children and one great grand child. Just using my family as an example, they currently have 19 people paying into the social security system that they draw from. When my own parents retire, they'll have their four sons paying into the system. Assuming we have replacement size families, and my parents live long enough, there will be 12 people paying in rather than 19. 12 people for 3 instead of 19 for 2. This is but one example. If we're going to keep the system, our payments into it are going to have to double.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2012-11-27 18:10:40
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5597|London, England

Jaekus wrote:

So glad we have a compulsory superannuation system in Australia.

So hope I have enough in there by the time I retire.
Your system is far superior to our own. It's essentially a compulsory 401k plan. You pay in, it earns interest, you take out. We pay in, no interest accrues and it goes out.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2012-11-27 18:14:15
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5418|Sydney
Except when the GFC hit a lot of people on the cusp of retiring lost everything. That would be heart breaking to know you had hundreds of thousands in what was thought to be a safely invested fund, only to lose it all. I guess now I know my fund is safe

 

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