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Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4446|London, England

Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:

Im failing to see the distinction between a fetus at conception and the cold virus. If we found bacteria on mars it will be headlined "life found on mars" even if it has the potential to grow into martians in a couple of million years.
Comments like this are death to your position.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Cheeky_Ninja06
Member
+52|5820|Cambridge, England

Jay wrote:

Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:

Im failing to see the distinction between a fetus at conception and the cold virus. If we found bacteria on mars it will be headlined "life found on mars" even if it has the potential to grow into martians in a couple of million years.
Comments like this are death to your position.
Its okay its my "belief"

No youre right, whenever somebody miscarries they should be arrested on suspicion of murder while the body is recovered and full forensic investigation is completed with potential life imprisonment / death sentence for committing murder.

Its a ridiculous position, there isnt even a debate in the uk.

Last edited by Cheeky_Ninja06 (2012-08-22 10:38:05)

KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,926|5720|949

It's perfectly fine to have your beliefs.  Please don't lobby the government to legislate your beliefs into laws that govern everyone in the US.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4446|London, England

Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:

Jay wrote:

Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:

Im failing to see the distinction between a fetus at conception and the cold virus. If we found bacteria on mars it will be headlined "life found on mars" even if it has the potential to grow into martians in a couple of million years.
Comments like this are death to your position.
Its okay its my "belief"

No youre right, whenever somebody miscarries they should be arrested on suspicion of murder while the body is recovered and full forensic investigation is completed with potential life imprisonment / death sentence for committing murder.

Its a ridiculous position, there isnt even a debate in the uk.
You compared human life to a cold. Do you not recognize how sociopathic that makes you look? "Oh, I caught a case of the preggers, time to go see the doctor". Nevermind that you're not destroying bacteria, you're destroying a future baby. It's fucking callous.

Protip: If you're trying to convince people on the fence about your belief system, it's best not to adopt a position or say anything that will invoke a negative visceral reaction in your target audience. What you said made me believe that you place zero value on human life. It might not have been your intent, or even how you really feel, but it's how you came across.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,926|5720|949

no, he's comparing an embryo at contraception to a cold.  Or, a possible human life to a cold.  Not a human life to a cold.  There is a difference - you know, the difference people have been discussing over the course of the last few pages?
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4446|London, England
I don't see any difference between a human life and a fetus Ken. It's just a different word for a stage in life like infant, toddler, child, teenager, adult.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,926|5720|949

no it's not a different word for a stage in life.  I guess if your definition of human life is "a mixture of two people's genes" than it is.  Life begins at contraception for you, too?
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4446|London, England
That bundle of cells is eventually, more than likely, going to grow into a human being. I'm fine with abortion though, I just think it should be limited to the first trimester only. If you can't make up your mind in the first three months whether or not to have the kid, tough fucking luck.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
HITNRUNXX
Member
+220|5797|Oklahoma City

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

It's perfectly fine to have your beliefs.  Please don't lobby the government to legislate your beliefs into laws that govern everyone in the US.
Why not? That is exactly how government works. People bitch and complain until they get their way. Always has been, always will be. You are essentially saying "Your idea isn't popular, so shut up."

That is exactly what is wrong with this country. Sorry, I can't be bothered to care, so whatever the media says I should believe is cool. Thanks.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4446|London, England

HITNRUNXX wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

It's perfectly fine to have your beliefs.  Please don't lobby the government to legislate your beliefs into laws that govern everyone in the US.
Why not? That is exactly how government works. People bitch and complain until they get their way. Always has been, always will be. You are essentially saying "Your idea isn't popular, so shut up."

That is exactly what is wrong with this country. Sorry, I can't be bothered to care, so whatever the media says I should believe is cool. Thanks.
No, what he is saying is that you shouldn't force your morality on others. Abortion right now is a take it or leave it thing. No one is forced to get them, they're completely optional. You and I are not going to ask our wives to get one. Other people might. That's their decision, and they live with the emotional consequences, not us.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,926|5720|949

Jay wrote:

That bundle of cells is eventually, more than likely, going to grow into a human being. I'm fine with abortion though, I just think it should be limited to the first trimester only. If you can't make up your mind in the first three months whether or not to have the kid, tough fucking luck.
I'm not really fine with abortion, but its not my role to tell other adults they have to have a kid either. The debate over what constitutes life obfuscates the issue here- which is people lobbying the government to legislate religious beliefs.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4446|London, England

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Jay wrote:

That bundle of cells is eventually, more than likely, going to grow into a human being. I'm fine with abortion though, I just think it should be limited to the first trimester only. If you can't make up your mind in the first three months whether or not to have the kid, tough fucking luck.
I'm not really fine with abortion, but its not my role to tell other adults they have to have a kid either. The debate over what constitutes life obfuscates the issue here- which is people lobbying the government to legislate religious beliefs.
We're completely in agreement then. If I ever had that in my past it's something I would regret for the rest of my life. I like kids.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,926|5720|949

HITNRUNXX wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

It's perfectly fine to have your beliefs.  Please don't lobby the government to legislate your beliefs into laws that govern everyone in the US.
Why not? That is exactly how government works. People bitch and complain until they get their way. Always has been, always will be. You are essentially saying "Your idea isn't popular, so shut up."

That is exactly what is wrong with this country. Sorry, I can't be bothered to care, so whatever the media says I should believe is cool. Thanks.
It has nothing to do with the media telling me I should believe in something or other.  I don't like the idea of abortion at all - I've never put myself in a position to make that decision and I hope I wouldn't have to.  It sucks that it happens - but it happens, and is going to happen whether or not it is legal.  To me, making it legal while educating people on responsibility and sex and making birth control widely available makes more sense than outlawing abortions and hoping everyone follows the law.
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|5863|Moscow, Russia

Jay wrote:

Shahter wrote:

But whatever, I'm no longer in a position where an abortion is even an option, or a desire.
orly? not an option? not even if, allah forbid, you own child is diagnosed in utero with down syndrome or some other nasty thing that could mean a life of misery for him?
My wife is catholic, and you can't say it would be a life of misery anyway.
about downs - no, i can't. but what about other things, like cerebral palsy? if i'm not mistaken, some of the cases can be diagnosed relatively early on during pregnancy and that shit can very well mean a life of constant pain for the kid - what if that crap happened to your family? still wouldn't consider abortion? all because your wife's imaginary friend in the sky who supposedly forbids it?

or imagine you already had, like, four kids. you and your wife are both working, money's tight, you are barely keeping afloat, and than by an unfortunate contraception failure your wife gets pregnant again. with three more. still wouldn't consider abortion?

the majority of these so called "pro-life"-ers are only at it because they've never been on the receiving end of this.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
HITNRUNXX
Member
+220|5797|Oklahoma City

Jay wrote:

No, what he is saying is that you shouldn't force your morality on others. Abortion right now is a take it or leave it thing. No one is forced to get them, they're completely optional. You and I are not going to ask our wives to get one. Other people might. That's their decision, and they live with the emotional consequences, not us.
But that is exactly what laws are. What do you care if gangbanger A goes and kills gangbanger B? You don't know either of them, so it should be legal?

What about stealing?

What about rape?

What about any other law?

They are all a code of morality forced upon society as a whole.

The obvious answer everyone will want to jump on here is:
But those laws are here to protect people. Murder and rape laws are to protect you from being murdered or raped...

Well I belief at the point of most abortions, we are talking about a life, so who protects them from being murdered or raped? No one, cause it doesn't affect them and they can justify it to themselves by calling it a bunch of common cold equivalent cells.
HITNRUNXX
Member
+220|5797|Oklahoma City

Shahter wrote:

about downs - no, i can't. but what about other things, like cerebral palsy? if i'm not mistaken, some of the cases can be diagnosed relatively early on during pregnancy and that shit can very well mean a life of constant pain for the kid - what if that crap happened to your family? still wouldn't consider abortion? all because your wife's imaginary friend in the sky who supposedly forbids it?
My best friend has cerebral palsy. I will be sure to let him know you think he should have just been killed instead of becoming a productive member of society. Thanks.
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|5863|Moscow, Russia

HITNRUNXX wrote:

Shahter wrote:

about downs - no, i can't. but what about other things, like cerebral palsy? if i'm not mistaken, some of the cases can be diagnosed relatively early on during pregnancy and that shit can very well mean a life of constant pain for the kid - what if that crap happened to your family? still wouldn't consider abortion? all because your wife's imaginary friend in the sky who supposedly forbids it?
My best friend has cerebral palsy. I will be sure to let him know you think he should have just been killed instead of becoming a productive member of society. Thanks.
you do that. just don't forget to mention that i only think he should have been killed by his own parents when they had the opportunity and didn't know if he would have to spend his life drooling on the floor and in constant pain or not.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
HITNRUNXX
Member
+220|5797|Oklahoma City

Shahter wrote:

HITNRUNXX wrote:

Shahter wrote:

about downs - no, i can't. but what about other things, like cerebral palsy? if i'm not mistaken, some of the cases can be diagnosed relatively early on during pregnancy and that shit can very well mean a life of constant pain for the kid - what if that crap happened to your family? still wouldn't consider abortion? all because your wife's imaginary friend in the sky who supposedly forbids it?
My best friend has cerebral palsy. I will be sure to let him know you think he should have just been killed instead of becoming a productive member of society. Thanks.
you do that. just don't forget to mention that i only think he should have been killed by his own parents when they had the opportunity and didn't know if he would have to spend his life drooling on the floor and in constant pain or not.
Thank God they are not barbarians of convenience.
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|5863|Moscow, Russia

HITNRUNXX wrote:

Shahter wrote:

HITNRUNXX wrote:


My best friend has cerebral palsy. I will be sure to let him know you think he should have just been killed instead of becoming a productive member of society. Thanks.
you do that. just don't forget to mention that i only think he should have been killed by his own parents when they had the opportunity and didn't know if he would have to spend his life drooling on the floor and in constant pain or not.
Thank God they are not barbarians of convenience.
yeah yeah. or they simply didn't have a choice.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
HITNRUNXX
Member
+220|5797|Oklahoma City
Either way, he survived and is happy and doing well. And that was HIS choice to have. But they don't exactly poll the babies first for their opinion in abortions.

And don't give me this crap about "Oh no, the baby might be in pain so we are doing it for him!"

The reality is: "Oh fuck, an imperfect kid, I don't want to have to deal with this. Do you have any idea how hard and expensive this might be? Scrap him and start over."

Making abortion into a selfless act is the biggest joke I have ever seen on the topic.
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|5863|Moscow, Russia

HITNRUNXX wrote:

Either way, he survived and is happy and doing well. And that was HIS choice to have. But they don't exactly poll the babies first for their opinion in abortions.

And don't give me this crap about "Oh no, the baby might be in pain so we are doing it for him!"

The reality is: "Oh fuck, an imperfect kid, I don't want to have to deal with this. Do you have any idea how hard and expensive this might be? Scrap him and start over."

Making abortion into a selfless act is the biggest joke I have ever seen on the topic.
point me at where i was trying to "make abortion into a selfless act". i was merely exploring the situations which in my opinion totally justify abortion. all you could come up with, aside from your "beliefs", is a "thank god"-schtick and one example of how it supposedly worked out (even though, i'm pretty sure you don't even know if the cause for cerebral palsy your friend has happened in utero or during/after birth).

gg.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|5755

It's been over 10 years since my wife's miscarriage.  First trimester.  What the doctor took out could fit into those small medicine cups. But to this day, I still mourn the loss.  Tears even, as I look at my two growing boys. 

And as such, abortion, except for genetic or rape situations, is abhorrent to me.  That is my moral standing.  What others choose to do during the first trimester, that is there moral call.  After that, save for genetic reasons, tough shit.  You had three months to decide.  Yeah, even due to financial/hardship reasons.
HITNRUNXX
Member
+220|5797|Oklahoma City

Shahter wrote:

point me at where i was trying to "make abortion into a selfless act".
Ok:

Shahter wrote:

i only think he should have been killed by his own parents when they had the opportunity and didn't know if he would have to spend his life drooling on the floor and in constant pain
Sounds like you are claiming selfless mercy killing to me.

Shahter wrote:

all you could come up with, aside from your "beliefs",
My beliefs are all I am. Your beliefs are all you are. Since that is what makes us who we are, I don't think that should be discounted just because you disagree.

Shahter wrote:

is a "thank god"-schtick and one example of how it supposedly worked out
Yes, I am sure he is the ONLY example in the whole world of it working out. I am positive it doesn't even happen to anyone else. I am certain no one with disabilities that could have been detected pre-birth have made any contributions to the world.

Shahter wrote:

(even though, i'm pretty sure you don't even know if the cause for cerebral palsy your friend has happened in utero or during/after birth).

gg.
Actually I do. His mother was involved in an accident when about 6 months pregnant. The doctors, while trying to operate on her made a mistake and basically stabbed him in the brain. They said they were pretty certain he would never make it, and if he did he would never be a functional human being.

gg.
Ty
Mass Media Casualty
+2,398|5862|Noizyland

I was going to respond in detail to HITNRUN's reply to my post but the discussion has moved on and to be honest I was probably just going to bitch about semantics anyway - blah blah bullshit what is "alive" vs. "a life". Useless crap. So I won't.

Abortion is morally ambiguous, no question. My own opinion is that it is something I think should be avoided but certainly not denied.

The issue gets a lot of emotional language used around it - in HITNRUN's response he described it as "Stabbing an unborn baby in the head with a vacuum hose and sucking its brains out" which is grossly inaccurate but is nevertheless how many people see it. It also shows how the issue has become so mixed up in emotion people have trouble looking at it objectively.

It's an uncomfortable thing to talk about really. Another uncomfortable topic which seems to have been largely ignored in this thread is the mother. I mean we're all blokes here, we'll never really understand the whole abortion thing. We'll always be observers. It may impact or effect us in some way but we're not the ones growing the foetus and we're not the one actually going through an abortion. I've noticed it coming up a few times - "I would never get an abortion..." "I would get an abortion if..." - Let's just make it clear, none of us are going to get any abortions any time soon.

That's something that always really bothers me when this debate comes up is that it mostly involves old men grumbling about how they should get to govern a woman's reproductive cycle. That kind of crap belongs in the medieval age. This vaginal probe thing is obscene and nutters like Todd Akin saying women have the ability to reject rapist sperm if it's really a rape just proves how little these people know or understand.

At the end of the day one's opinion on abortion is a deeply personal one. So why on earth should one side of the argument impose that abortions be restricted or banned or people seeking them should have to go through the experience of having a probe stuffed up them or having some judgemental prick trying to convince them out of it? Generally someone seeking an abortion is going to be very conflicted about it, they need to be allowed to make up their own minds, have information about all the options available and what they mean. And when they make a decision that decision should be supported.

What I can not agree with is forcing a woman to carry to term because some just don't like abortions. The toll a pregnancy has on someone physically, mentally and emotionally is huge. My feelings on forcing someone to carry to term is the same as my feeling in regard to forcing someone to have an abortion. Equally repulsive. Even those arguing that "if they really don't want a baby they can put it up for adoption" don't realise the huge impact that has. If a woman chooses to take this route then great, she should be given the support she needs. However they did forced adoptions for unwed teenager mothers in Australia between the 1950s and 1970s. The process was incredibly inhuman. Even during the birth a sheet would be put up to prevent the mother from catching a glimpse of the child. Just yesterday the New South Wales Parliament voted to issue an official apology over it and all these stories have been coming out. It's not pleasant and certainly not moral.

So my argument has to be that abortion be left an option. And I know there are those who will ask "who speaks for the unborn" - you know what I'm going to make a call on that one. For the lack of anyone better how about we let the mother speak for the unborn. Does anyone else have an idea for someone better to give the final say? The best the rest of us can do is just provide the information and support needed to allow any decision to be made and go ahead. After all, she's the one who will live with whatever the consequences are.
[Blinking eyes thing]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|5585

there isn't a man alive that has had an abortion

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