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KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,926|5716|949

what if he comes back and says the death penalty is bad?  it does nothing for this debate...

thanks, Mike Huckabee.

Mike Huckabee wrote:

"Ethel Waters, for example, was the result of a forcible rape," Huckabee said of the late American gospel singer. One-time presidential candidate Huckabee added: "I used to work for James Robison back in the 1970s, he leads a large Christian organization. He, himself, was the result of a forcible rape. And so I know it happens, and yet even from those horrible, horrible tragedies of rape, which are inexcusable and indefensible, life has come and sometimes, you know, those people are able to do extraordinary things."
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4442|London, England

globefish23 wrote:

HITNRUNXX wrote:

Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:

And no this isnt what we were talking about, you said that all abortions are murder. ALL. Which is crap.
Yup, all. Barbaric murder.

It doesn't matter that I am not popular in my belief. It is my belief.
Lemme hear about your stance on the death penalty then...
They're not remotely equal. People earn the death penalty through negative societal actions. Fetuses are innocent.

Stupid argument every time it's made.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
HITNRUNXX
Member
+220|5794|Oklahoma City
I don't believe in the death penalty. I have made that clear here many times.
HITNRUNXX
Member
+220|5794|Oklahoma City
Which it is funny you bring that up... I was talking to someone recently about how it seems the pro-abortion people are always anti-capital punishment and vice versa. I don't get that.
-Whiteroom-
Pineapplewhat
+572|5743|BC, Canada
Pro-abortion, Pro-death penalty, obviously with some stipulations on both.
13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|5581

Let God Sort Them Out.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,926|5716|949

pro-abortion.  yeah ok.  what a stupid fucking placeholder.  Yes, I vote we abort everyone.
13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|5581

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Yes, I vote we abort everyone.
+1
HITNRUNXX
Member
+220|5794|Oklahoma City
Unless you believe it is a person... Then you are comparing a person guilty of crimes that they made a choice to do to a baby that isn't getting a choice at all.

Regardless, I don't believe in killing humans, pre-born or post-crime.
Mutantbear
Semi Constructive Criticism
+1,431|5049|London, England

if babies were born with guns there would be so many more murders

I say abort them while we still can
_______________________________________________________________________________________________ https://i.imgur.com/Xj4f2.png
13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|5581

HITNRUNXX wrote:

What if they were raped? So what?
attaboy, wrote my new member title
-Whiteroom-
Pineapplewhat
+572|5743|BC, Canada

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

pro-abortion.  yeah ok.  what a stupid fucking placeholder.  Yes, I vote we abort everyone.
Pro-choice then, whatever you like.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,926|5716|949

and let's spread the stupidity to call people who support the government's right to legislate morality as anti-choice.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4442|London, England

lichanura wrote:

Jay wrote:

globefish23 wrote:


Lemme hear about your stance on the death penalty then...
They're not remotely equal. People earn the death penalty through negative societal actions. Fetuses are innocent.

Stupid argument every time it's made.
It's sort of hard for a fetus to be innocent when a fetus isn't even a person yet.
Ok, but 90%+ of the time it will grow into a person.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|5581

Jay wrote:

lichanura wrote:

Jay wrote:


They're not remotely equal. People earn the death penalty through negative societal actions. Fetuses are innocent.

Stupid argument every time it's made.
It's sort of hard for a fetus to be innocent when a fetus isn't even a person yet.
Ok, but 90%+ of the time it will grow into a person.
@lichanura; i guess that's why it we don't call it 'person', we call it 'fetus', because it's not a person until President Romney signs the bill granting "Personhood".

@Jay; ur rite, 90% of the time it will grow into a person, and if it grows in these United States, there's a 49/49 percent chance it will vote a straight ticket, pun intended
Ty
Mass Media Casualty
+2,398|5859|Noizyland

HITNRUNXX wrote:

Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:

And no this isnt what we were talking about, you said that all abortions are murder. ALL. Which is crap.
Yup, all. Barbaric murder.

It doesn't matter that I am not popular in my belief. It is my belief.
So out of curiosity where do you draw the line?

I ask because I don't see how anyone can have a completely staunch viewpoint on the matter and simply justify it with "that's what I believe, deal with it." There are simply too many things to consider. Logically you have to draw the line somewhere be it a matter of days, weeks or at conception or even ejaculation and be prepared to back this up with a logical argument.

For instance I consider myself as someone who supports a woman's right to seek an abortion. But that being said no-one who shares my view can deny that a foetus is a potential human life. I have argued in the past that a foetus is little more than a growth of cells utterly dependant on its host and is, for a large period of time, no more self-aware or alive than a kidney. Still true to a certain extent but what's lost in that assessment is that a kidney doesn't grow into a person. So I have a line where an unborn child becomes something that's more than a cluster of cells, I don't draw my line at "it's not a person until it is born".

So be honest, you don't consider a foetus an actual human life and nor does anyone else in the pro-life camp. If they did they may be more supportive of things like pre-natal care which generally they are not. Or, Hell, contraception to prevent unwanted pregnancies from happening in the first place which also a lot of them are not. Or post-natal support and care given the rates of infant mortality - also something pro-lifers generally aren't too fond of. Or as George Carlin said they would call for the unborn to be included in the Census. Or counting one's age from the date of conception. Or holding funerals for miscarriages. Little things.

So I think we can agree on the potential life thing. Which is important I think because it draws the distinction that a foetus is not a human life.  Does that mean it shouldn't be afforded protections? Of course not. But that doesn't mean it should be afforded the same protections. Abortion isn't the only way a potential life fails to become a human life after all. A fertilised egg is not even a potential potential human life given that a significant amount of the time they fail to attach and are expelled as per usual. But we don't call that a miscarriage. That being the case I certainly don't see how the line can be drawn at conception in any way and why I can't understand those who argue against things like the morning after pill.

So again, out of curiosity, where's your line where an aborted pregnancy becomes "Barbaric murder"?
[Blinking eyes thing]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|5859|Moscow, Russia
@Ty:

dude, he told you it was his belief, that basically means "fuck off, i don't care about anyone's opinions or arguments". he doesn't "draw the line", he doesn't try to rationalize anything, he won't be bothered to address any of your points - he's got his fucking "belief". don't waste your breath.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
HITNRUNXX
Member
+220|5794|Oklahoma City

Ty wrote:

HITNRUNXX wrote:

Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:

And no this isnt what we were talking about, you said that all abortions are murder. ALL. Which is crap.
Yup, all. Barbaric murder.

It doesn't matter that I am not popular in my belief. It is my belief.
So out of curiosity where do you draw the line?

I ask because I don't see how anyone can have a completely staunch viewpoint on the matter and simply justify it with "that's what I believe, deal with it." There are simply too many things to consider. Logically you have to draw the line somewhere be it a matter of days, weeks or at conception or even ejaculation and be prepared to back this up with a logical argument.

For instance I consider myself as someone who supports a woman's right to seek an abortion. But that being said no-one who shares my view can deny that a foetus is a potential human life. I have argued in the past that a foetus is little more than a growth of cells utterly dependant on its host and is, for a large period of time, no more self-aware or alive than a kidney. Still true to a certain extent but what's lost in that assessment is that a kidney doesn't grow into a person. So I have a line where an unborn child becomes something that's more than a cluster of cells, I don't draw my line at "it's not a person until it is born".

So be honest, you don't consider a foetus an actual human life and nor does anyone else in the pro-life camp. If they did they may be more supportive of things like pre-natal care which generally they are not. Or, Hell, contraception to prevent unwanted pregnancies from happening in the first place which also a lot of them are not. Or post-natal support and care given the rates of infant mortality - also something pro-lifers generally aren't too fond of. Or as George Carlin said they would call for the unborn to be included in the Census. Or counting one's age from the date of conception. Or holding funerals for miscarriages. Little things.

So I think we can agree on the potential life thing. Which is important I think because it draws the distinction that a foetus is not a human life.  Does that mean it shouldn't be afforded protections? Of course not. But that doesn't mean it should be afforded the same protections. Abortion isn't the only way a potential life fails to become a human life after all. A fertilised egg is not even a potential potential human life given that a significant amount of the time they fail to attach and are expelled as per usual. But we don't call that a miscarriage. That being the case I certainly don't see how the line can be drawn at conception in any way and why I can't understand those who argue against things like the morning after pill.

So again, out of curiosity, where's your line where an aborted pregnancy becomes "Barbaric murder"?
First off, let me say thank you for actually presenting an intelligent, and well thought out post. I gave up on getting one.

I draw the line at conception. I believe that once the egg is fertilized, it stops being an egg. I believe at that point it becomes a part of two different human beings, and starts a process of becoming more. I understand your reasoning for saying you believe it is just cells up until a certain point. I can also argue against myself. Afterall, would I call a tree fire? No? Why not, it has the potential to become firewood... But I would argue back that it hasn't started that process. The day someone says "I am cutting down that tree to use as firewood" and then cuts the tree down, then I would stop calling it a tree, and start calling it firewood. It isn't technically set on fire yet, but that is now its purpose. Once an egg becomes fertilized, it is no longer an egg. The egg changes its electrical characteristics to prevent more sperm from entering it. There is a change. I believe the correct term for it at this point is zygote.

There are four criteria that science uses to determine if something is alive. They are growth, reproduction, reaction to stimulus, and metabolism. A zygote meets those criteria. Therefore it is alive. Now, you still have a very valid argument that it is no more alive than a kidney. And again, this point comes down to personal belief. I believe that at the moment of conception, this system of cells has taken the steps to become its own life. It shares DNA from two different people. It has started the process of becoming a baby, and should not be held at fault for this process taking time, and not being instantaneous.

So yes, at this point I believe it to be a life. Maybe a parasitic version of a life, but yes, a life, exactly as defined by science. I would also like to refer back to a previous statement I made. If scientists today found evidence of a zygote existing on Mars, not a single one would proclaim "Alien cells found." Everyone would loudly and excitedly scream "ALIEN LIFE FOUND!" I believe this to be alive. I believe this to be life. If someone were to come along and stomp it death, then I doubt anyone would be arguing "Well, it hadn't developed into whatever yet, so its cool."

I am found of pre/post-natal care. I believe it is everyone's responsibility to take care of those that CAN NOT take care of themselves. I word it that way because I am against taking care of people who are just too lazy to take care of themselves. A lot of people talk big about being against these things, but I think that stems from feeling taken advantage of. Afterall, if you were walking through the woods and found a little baby laying there, would you just walk of and leave it as not your responsibility? Or would you try to help it by making sure it is taken care of? I think basic human nature points us to an obvious answer there.

I am a supporter of contraception. I think sex education is a very important topic. I think anything that prevents an egg from being fertilized is fair game. If you can't take care of a baby, you should prevent the conception to begin with. Not just be stupid with the knowledge of "Oh hey, if something happens, I can just get an abortion later. No big deal." I think this non consequence way of thinking has caused a number of problems in our society. Another great and similar example is marriage. I know too many people who got married with the knowledge of "Oh hey, if it doesn't work out, I can just get a divorce." I think this is a horrible mindset to have. We have worked really hard to remove all consequences of our actions. Then we are surprised when someone doesn't understand the consequences of their actions.

But I digress, yes, I support contraception. Assuming, of course, you take that word literally. Contra, meaning against. Ception, meaning conception. I do not believe in, I don't even know what the word would be, extractception... I believe in the knowledge to properly use contraception.

In many countries, babies are considered 1 year old when they are born, because they consider the gestation period to be rounded to about a year. I don't think that is necessary, especially considering the wide range of pregnancy times... How would this count for preemies? In a weird twist on what you say though, if you go in to get an ultrasound done, the take measurements of the baby, and they tell you "This baby is XX weeks old." They don't give you a negative number. They measure against the time of conception. As long as the method of counting age is consistent, it really doesn't matter which system you use, in my opinion.

My wife had a miscarriage. We did hold a small funeral. It isn't something I would care to talk about any further.

The Census is another of the things that I don't think really matter as long as it is consistent. Would it really hurt anything to count pregnancies? No. Would it really change anything? Probably not... Although it could potentially allow some planning for growth.

And I agree, a number of fertilized eggs don't attach. This process happens within about 10 days. But pro-choice people aren't limiting their option down to a 10 day window. I even agree that the majority of fertilized eggs don't survive this part. However, I don't think this is really a factor of human intervention I believe this is part of the natural process. And in this process, using scientific terms, something that was alive, dies. This process is more of an example of Darwin's survival of the fittest. These are unknowns. That is just a fact of life. No, at that stage, I don't think we should be having funerals or counting Census on these unknowns. That is a natural part of the human reproductive process.

Stabbing an unborn baby in the head with a vacuum hose and sucking its brains out is not a natural part of the process.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4442|London, England
I consider myself to be pro-choice, but I have a lot of issues with abortion...

First off, any line you draw between conception and birth is pretty damn arbitrary. I don't know the cutoff point, but I know there is one where a mothers chances of actually having the kid vs having a miscarriage increases exponentially. I've known a lot of mom's that wouldn't even admit they were pregnant until the 8th week or so just because the chances of a miscarriage were so high. Whatever that cutoff is, that's where I personally would draw the line.

Second, I think beyond the thought of killing children, most pro-life people, and I myself included, have a very serious problem with abortions of convenience. The "I'm a stupid twit that didn't use birth control and now I don't want to have a kid because it will fuck up my lifestyle" kind. Some people just shouldn't be parents, I get that, but then get a vasectomy, go on the pill, wear a condom etc. It's the sheer irresponsibility of it all that grates on me. Yes, sex is normal, it's fun blah blah blah, but it isn't without consequences if you fuck it up.

But whatever, I'm no longer in a position where an abortion is even an option, or a desire.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|5083|...
Women will still have abortions regardless of its legality. If it's illegal however, the procedure will be self-performed with accompanying health and safety risks. It's best to simply provide a clean environment in which professionals get the job done. I'd leave it up to an individual's moral compass & judgement to get an abortion rather than forbidding it by law, as in this subject it's impossible to cover every unique situation in which people might contemplate 'killing the baby'. Undoubtedly legislation that makes it impossible for women to get abortions will cause lots of (unintended, I hope) suffering.

Yes, I know that this leaves room for those 'stupid twits' to get as many abortions as they like (I seriously wonder if there's anyone, if at all many, who would turn their wombs into massacre pits without second thought), though I'd rather have them on the loose than chain people who have no means of caring for the child or got pregnant in rather terrible situations and force (unwanted) babies upon them. In the end, someone who really wants to, will get an abortion one way or the other - and some people simply need them.

Last edited by Shocking (2012-08-22 08:10:53)

inane little opines
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|5859|Moscow, Russia

HITNRUNXX wrote:

I draw the line at conception.
holy crap. conception. again.

https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/4275/facepalm.gif

okay, so there's a fetus in there which could, potentially, become a human being, but did you know, for example, that if proper care is not taken very early in human child's life, he/she will never be able to learn to speak and, as a result, certain parts of that child's brain would never properly develop? because of that the wretched thing would never become a being with proper brain functions - important functions, like abstract thinking and other stuff - it would be a "human ape", so to say. an animal. you don't have problem killing animals, do you? for, like, food and stuff? you do eat steak, right?

life, as a phenomenon, may begin at conception, but before it becomes an actual human life so much must happen that saying that killing a fetus = killing a human is like saying that by eating a chestnut you are hurting the ecology - it could have become a tree, right?

you may jange with semantics and your "beliefs" all you want, but the likes of you never had any rational argument in this. you know what? - stick to beliefs, to irrational bullshit you are so full of. because every time you try to rationalize any of that you come up as total retard.

Last edited by Shahter (2012-08-22 08:19:25)

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|5859|Moscow, Russia

Jay wrote:

It's the sheer irresponsibility of it all that grates on me.
and how's that irresponsibility any business of yours? how are you affected by those who get abortions? you are not a religious nut, right? if your posts on these forums are any indication, you are all for the people choosing their ways for themselves. why not abortion? it does more harm to them than anything else, really. what's your problem again?

But whatever, I'm no longer in a position where an abortion is even an option, or a desire.
orly? not an option? not even if, allah forbid, you own child is diagnosed in utero with down syndrome or some other nasty thing that could mean a life of misery for him?
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4442|London, England

Shahter wrote:

Jay wrote:

It's the sheer irresponsibility of it all that grates on me.
and how's that irresponsibility any business of yours? how are you affected by those who get abortions? you are not a religious nut, right? if your posts on these forums are any indication, you are all for the people choosing their ways for themselves. why not abortion? it does more harm to them than anything else, really. what's your problem again?
It's not my problem, which is why I don't want it banned. I just feel uncomfortable morally with the choice if the mothers life isn't in danger or she wasn't raped. I just don't think it should be a flip decision.

But whatever, I'm no longer in a position where an abortion is even an option, or a desire.
orly? not an option? not even if, allah forbid, you own child is diagnosed in utero with down syndrome or some other nasty thing that could mean a life of misery for him?
My wife is catholic, and you can't say it would be a life of misery anyway.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|5083|...
People with downs are usually some of the happiest you'll ever meet.

I'll be upfront with saying that I think I'd probably want an abortion if that were ever diagnosed in a future child o' mine (let's hope not). I don't think I could take care of a child with downs, considering both time investment required and emotional hardships. I have a lot of respect for anyone who's willing to do so though, it requires a lot of personal sacrifice.
inane little opines
Cheeky_Ninja06
Member
+52|5817|Cambridge, England
Im failing to see the distinction between a fetus at conception and the cold virus. If we found bacteria on mars it will be headlined "life found on mars" even if it has the potential to grow into martians in a couple of million years.

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