Even the Jeff Davis highway serves a purpose, it reminds people of the history of our country. You can't just whitewash everything and blot out the bad parts. There was a lot of heroism on both sides of the war, and stuff like that should be celebrated to an extent. Hell, I saw a plaque on a highway here in New York on probably the ugliest bridge I've ever seen and it inspired me to buy a book about the guy. Maybe someone else would do the same after driving on that highway.Narupug wrote:
Every president on Mount Rushmore would probably be considered "racist" if they lived in today's America. Some more than others.
I respect the confederate soldiers and generals just as much as I respect the union soldiers and generals for what they did. I respect their bravery for fighting in a war where the tactics hadn't caught up to the technology until the very end. I have sympathy for them for fighting in a war where the common treatment for getting shot in a limb was to cut that limb off. I think we need to remember the lessons learned from the Civil War. The solutions to our problems are no longer, "If you won't do what we want, then we're just gonna go form our own country where we can do whatever we want and you can't stop us." That being said, I'm not so sure naming something the "Jefferson Davis Memorial Highway" is doing anything more than glorifying the way things "used to be."
I'm not suggesting we rewrite our history books and pretend this never happened. I'm not suggesting we remove all the civil war memorials. I'm not suggesting we build a strip mall on top of Gettysburg. I'm suggesting we stop memorializing people whose one solitary accomplishment was fighting a losing struggle for slavery. There is noting redeemable about nearly all the confederate war leaders.Jay wrote:
Even the Jeff Davis highway serves a purpose, it reminds people of the history of our country. You can't just whitewash everything and blot out the bad parts.
Jay wrote:
I say pick your battles, and this is a rather silly one.
It may not seem like a big deal for you Mr. Blue eyed northerner, but for some people it is downright demeaning.Macbeth wrote:
I am not black so I have no idea how it must feel for a black person to have to go to a school, play in a park, live on a street, drive on a road, and celebrate a holiday named after a person who started a war in order to make sure you stayed property.
However it must feel I am sure the fact that "it is their culture!!11" doesn't make it any better.
breaking away from the country can be viewed as traitorous though. they fucked up by firing on fort sumter, innit.A2TG2 wrote:
Profound disagreements about the role of the executive branch need not be viewed as traitorous.
well, you have zero respect for any states rights issue, so whatever. We'll never agree. I will say this though, the people alive today were never slaves, never had any experience at all of it. To say they are reminded of something they have no way of empathizing with is indeed silly.Macbeth wrote:
I'm not suggesting we rewrite our history books and pretend this never happened. I'm not suggesting we remove all the civil war memorials. I'm not suggesting we build a strip mall on top of Gettysburg. I'm suggesting we stop memorializing people whose one solitary accomplishment was fighting a losing struggle for slavery. There is noting redeemable about nearly all the confederate war leaders.Jay wrote:
Even the Jeff Davis highway serves a purpose, it reminds people of the history of our country. You can't just whitewash everything and blot out the bad parts.Jay wrote:
I say pick your battles, and this is a rather silly one.It may not seem like a big deal for you Mr. Blue eyed northerner, but for some people it is downright demeaning.Macbeth wrote:
I am not black so I have no idea how it must feel for a black person to have to go to a school, play in a park, live on a street, drive on a road, and celebrate a holiday named after a person who started a war in order to make sure you stayed property.
However it must feel I am sure the fact that "it is their culture!!11" doesn't make it any better.
Because black people aren't still suffering the effects of slavery.Jay wrote:
I will say this though, the people alive today were never slaves, never had any experience at all of it. To say they are reminded of something they have no way of empathizing with is indeed silly.
How the hell is this a state's rights issue? Criticizing southern culture is not one step removed from dissolving the states.Jay wrote:
well, you have zero respect for any states rights issue, so whatever. We'll never agree.
No, it was the attempted forcible takeover of federal property, including DCA2TG2 wrote:
I disagree with the traitor part of your premise.
Profound disagreements about the role of the executive branch need not be viewed as traitorous.
And what about when the actions of the executive branch become traitorous to the ideals that founded the country?
Which treason came first; the dis-honorable government, or the people that rebel against them?
The civil war was largely about the economy of that time and states rights.
Are you going to argue that all black people in America deserve reparations too? Look, it's been what? six generations since the end of slavery? Yes, the south still had Jim Crowe laws after the war, but that's why millions of black people moved north. Every group of people arrived in America dirt poor with mostly just the clothes on their backs. The Jews, the Italians, the Irish, the Germans, Asians, and now the Hispanics all arrived with nothing. They were all discriminated against and forced to work menial labor jobs until enough of them worked their way up to a point they couldn't be ignored anymore. For a while, black people were doing the same thing. We had the Harlem Renaissance, middle class black neighborhoods, and everything else that said they were pointed in the right direction towards full integration into the rest of society, just like all the other demographic groups. Then something changed.Macbeth wrote:
Because black people aren't still suffering the effects of slavery.Jay wrote:
I will say this though, the people alive today were never slaves, never had any experience at all of it. To say they are reminded of something they have no way of empathizing with is indeed silly.
Last edited by Hurricane2k9 (2012-08-10 21:30:27)
Because it was fundamentally a states rights issue. You've made it plain in many posts that you want a strong federal government. That's fine. I'm of the opinion that states should be able to come and go as they please. If they feel they can do better on their own, let em. Let them provide for their own defense, their own highways etc. When Texas was threatening to secede not all that long ago I was ready to wave goodbye. I don't believe in holding states or the people they contain against their will with the use of force. If the feds were actually doing their job and creating an environment where people are happy and feel lucky to live under their governance it would never be an issue. But they don't, because the people that gravitate towards our national government have largely been scum.Macbeth wrote:
How the hell is this a state's rights issue? Criticizing southern culture is not one step removed from dissolving the states.Jay wrote:
well, you have zero respect for any states rights issue, so whatever. We'll never agree.
You can't be this stupid.
go back to your country avenueHurricane2k9 wrote:
it's a pretty nice part of town too I suppose, mostly office buildings and high-rise apartments though
other ideas for catchy road names
Ron Paul Road
Barack Obama Parkway
Strom Thurmond Street
Did I suggest we whitewash it? I'm for naming most things after Civil War generals as long as the purpose is remembering the Civil War. Someone like Jefferson Davis who was a politician and nearly powerless thanks to the CSA constitution that they thought was so much better than the original, was involved in the war but didn't really do anything particularly worthwhile. When you name something after him what are you commemorating? Because I think there are much better people you could commemorate. William Barksdale is one if you want to talk about other famous people in the Civil War from Mississippi. Not naming highways after the guy doesn't prevent you from learning about him elsewhere.Jay wrote:
Even the Jeff Davis highway serves a purpose, it reminds people of the history of our country. You can't just whitewash everything and blot out the bad parts. There was a lot of heroism on both sides of the war, and stuff like that should be celebrated to an extent. Hell, I saw a plaque on a highway here in New York on probably the ugliest bridge I've ever seen and it inspired me to buy a book about the guy. Maybe someone else would do the same after driving on that highway.Narupug wrote:
Every president on Mount Rushmore would probably be considered "racist" if they lived in today's America. Some more than others.
I respect the confederate soldiers and generals just as much as I respect the union soldiers and generals for what they did. I respect their bravery for fighting in a war where the tactics hadn't caught up to the technology until the very end. I have sympathy for them for fighting in a war where the common treatment for getting shot in a limb was to cut that limb off. I think we need to remember the lessons learned from the Civil War. The solutions to our problems are no longer, "If you won't do what we want, then we're just gonna go form our own country where we can do whatever we want and you can't stop us." That being said, I'm not so sure naming something the "Jefferson Davis Memorial Highway" is doing anything more than glorifying the way things "used to be."
And yes, I get the counterargument "should we name highways after Hitler too?". I'm not by any means saying that slavery wasn't awful, but we name shit for morally reprehensible politicians all the time. Hell, one of the busiest airports in the world is named after a guy that invaded Cuba, began the war in Vietnam, ignored civil rights, and is best known for being a playboy that got himself shot in the head. I say pick your battles, and this is a rather silly one.
Last edited by Narupug (2012-08-10 21:35:51)
If you don't think the U.S. racial hierarchy that persisted after the abolishment of slavery, and passing of the civil rights act left black people at the absolute bottom of American society then you are really ignorant.Jay wrote:
I can say with conviction that enough time has passed that you can't use slavery from several generations ago as a valid excuse.
All of those groups have/had long standing cultural history and foundations that blacks were denied due to the slave system. Italians, Irish, and Hispanics all had the Catholic church to rally their communities together. Irish, Germans, and Italians all were able to blend in and be absorbed into American society. Hispanics had functioning governments that occasionally lent assistance in various ways. Asians have the privileged of an U.S. immigration system that favors the top 1% of their society. Blacks had none of these. They were excluded from churches. Had no functioning governments. Couldn't blend in. And didn't benefit from immigration policy. This is why they are at the absolute bottom of the racial structure of the U.S. Black poverty is a direct result of being at the absolute edge of society. This is true for every group that finds themselves as a minority in most of the rest of the world.The Jews, the Italians, the Irish, the Germans, Asians, and now the Hispanics all arrived with nothing. They were all discriminated against and forced to work menial labor jobs until enough of them worked their way up to a point they couldn't be ignored anymore.
Somehow you managed to find away to drag hipster into this. Bravo.jay wrote:
A lot of people blame the left wing hippies that moved into black neighborhoods bringing drugs with them and the idea that only suckers work for a living.
Last edited by Macbeth (2012-08-10 21:48:37)
