Miggle
FUCK UBISOFT
+1,411|6982|FUCK UBISOFT

-Sh1fty- wrote:

Jay wrote:

Yes, but you make stupid comments like 'if there were more guns then the shooting in the theater would've ended differently'. Have you been in combat? Could you take the shot in a dark theater with a hundred screaming people running around, loud gunfire, terror, and everything else that was going on? Could one person out of ten thousand take that shot without hitting innocent people? Maybe. Doubtful, but maybe. And that's where my problem lies. You make stupid comments like that and by doing so you undermine everything that eleven bravo and I had said previously in the thread. Your post will become the focus and your flag waving macho idiocy will be the image people take away. It's what happens every time ignorant fuckhead rednecks open their mouth on the subject.
I heard the guy was standing in front of the screen when he did the shooting. Not hard to hit a bigass silhouette. I understand there would be confusion and panic. I'm just saying it's better to be able to defend yourself than sit there and hope you're not the random target of the next .223 that enters the chamber.
Movie screens dont go down to the floor.
https://i.imgur.com/86fodNE.png
Ty
Mass Media Casualty
+2,398|7014|Noizyland

Shifty needs to change his name to Captain Hindsight.

Shifty I realise you're 100% certain that as an armed badass if anyone tried to take over Nakatomi Plaza you'd John McClane them into oblivion but let's be realistic. If you tried to pull a gun on some psychopath during a rampage you'd be filled with so much lead they could use you as a pencil.

Your utopia of everyone armed to the teeth neglects to take into account willingness to use firearms and many civilians have no interest in ever using or owning a gun. Criminals, as you rightly point out, have less of a regard for the law and are far more likely to use their weapons. Now I'm sure you can work out how a criminal is likely to act if he assumes his victim is armed. Who's going to fire first?

What you're advocating for is essentially vigilantism, to establish a system where 'responsible' people can arm themselves in order to take out the bad guys if they pop up. Didn't work out to well for George Zimmerman or Travyon Martin. Or do you rather have the notion that criminals will be too scared to act when they remember that everyone is armed. Bullshit, when do any of these people show much regard for their own lives.

Also a funny thing about responsible people, it doesn't take much to turn them into mass murderers.

Thinking that increasing the availability of firearms would lead to less instances of gun-related violence is as naive as thinking that increasing the amount of bottle stores will curb drunkenness.

In regard to this incident, I can't believe you would seriously consider that if people were armed in the movie theatre the tragedy would have been mitigated. "That's what that dark, gas, and panic filled movie theatre needed, more bullets flying around." I like you Shifty but fucking Hell man, you certainly know how to come across as soft in the head.



Also Jay and eleven bravo, I agree with your points but I disagree that regulating the sorts of firearms available wouldn't be beneficial - not from a regulation standpoint necessarily but in regard to lessening the availability of such weapons. I'm sure that's just down to where I come from though and the knowledge of the impact of restrictions placed in 1990 after the Aramoana massacre here.
[Blinking eyes thing]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5418|Sydney
On the point about automatic weapons, I don't really know why anyone would need to own an uzi. It's not like you're going to go hunting with it, and if you actually legitimately needed it for self defence you're most likely fucked anyway.
-Sh1fty-
plundering yee booty
+510|5713|Ventura, California
Shooting automatic weapons is very fun. Nothing like destroying things

My dad converted his semi-automatic .22 to a fully auto one, removed the stock, made it a pistol grip, and we spent many a fun hour shooting old refrigerators. It would be more fun in 9mm, hence uzis.
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6956

Jaekus wrote:

On the point about automatic weapons, I don't really know why anyone would need to own an uzi. It's not like you're going to go hunting with it, and if you actually legitimately needed it for self defence you're most likely fucked anyway.
automatic weapons are fun to shoot with.

but then again a full auto m16 goes for 16k USD and you will require extensive licenses and background checks, but anyone can still get a semi-auto AR easily.
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-Sh1fty-
plundering yee booty
+510|5713|Ventura, California
In the case of the movie theater massacre, hip fire the Ar-15 while keeping your finger in your pocket and the recoil makes you fire again quickly. A friend of mine does that and can fire ridiculously fast. pretty much an automatic weapon

regulating automatic weapons is dumb anyway. you can more accurately hit targets in semi auto than full auto
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX

-Sh1fty- wrote:

you can more accurately hit targets in semi auto than full auto
This is the only intelligent thing Sh1fty has said so far.

eleven Bravo wrote:

dude, the weapon he used was semi automatic. no different rate of fire than a hunting rifle or a handgun or revolver
Its a completely different rate of fire to a bolt-action rifle or revolver, radically different, as is the effectiveness.
And a 100 rnd clip means the user is an awful lot harder to take down.

.223 is a thoroughly damaging cartridge, more so at point-blank range.
Fuck Israel
13rin
Member
+977|6719
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
Mutantbear
Semi Constructive Criticism
+1,431|6204|London, England

HUFF POST LOL wrote:

"She could have lost all kinds of function (if) the bullet traversed her brain," her mother Kim Anderson told the Sacramento Bee. "I believe that she was not only protected by God, but that she was actually prepared for it."
Ah boyyyyyyyyy
_______________________________________________________________________________________________ https://i.imgur.com/Xj4f2.png
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6914|Canberra, AUS
to be fair, that is incredibly freakish, so it's not *that* surprising to see something like that being said
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
HITNRUNXX
Member
+220|6949|Oklahoma City

Jay wrote:

I really don't want to have this argument again...

There's nothing special about 'assault weapons'. They, for some reason, strike fear in peoples hearts but that's simply due to ignorance and emotion. The M-16 platform that the AR-15 is based on fires a .223 round. This round was selected by the military for two reasons: 1) the bullet loses little accuracy and inertia out to ranges of 300-400 meters and 2) it's dirt cheap to produce compared to larger caliber rounds. If the attacker had used a round that actually had stopping power, rather than the wounding power of a .223/5.56mm round, many more than 12 people would've died. Ask any hunter and they will tell you that the only real use for a rifle firing a round of that size is to hunt small game like rabbits or the occasional coyote. Anything larger than that and the animal will probably not go down, and if it does, it means miles of following a blood trail before you find the animal. At the range he was using the weapon at, he would've been better served simply using two pistols.

The M-16/AR-15 is largely a shitty platform used because it's a very easy to use and user friendly system. It's cheap to build, the ammo is cheap to manufacture, and it's saving grace is that it is generally easy for novices to hit the targets they aim at from range. That's it. The same largely goes for any other military 'assault weapon' in the world except for perhaps the AK-47 which trades accuracy and ease of use for volume and stopping power. I really don't want to speculate about what I would use in a situation like his, because fuck, that's morbid, but I can say that there are about a thousand or so rifles I would prefer to use over an M-16/AR-15 that would perform better. Obsessing over the fact that the weapon is used by military's is pure silliness.
I am several pages behind, but reading up, so sorry if this is behind. I wanted to add something to this:
Contrary to popular belief (because, you know, it is a gun and all) the M16/.223/5.56 was not designed to kill people. It also was not simply developed en masse because it was cheap. It had a designed purpose. To wound. If you go find the original design requests and initial design notes (assuming they are out there... I had a professor who's dad helped design it and he had copies of a lot of these notes/requests/conversations), you would see that they specifically requested it for this purpose.

The idea  was: If you kill an enemy soldier, he falls and his buddies move on. If you wound an enemy soldier, it takes him out of the fight, plus two of his buddies to drag him to safety, plus attrition as several people are now required to transport and treat him.

So with that being said, it isn't a great choice for either personal defense or for killing lots of people.

Now here is the problem: If you start limiting the weapons that are great are killing people, then you start limiting the weapons that are great at stopping people in defense.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England

Ty wrote:

Also Jay and eleven bravo, I agree with your points but I disagree that regulating the sorts of firearms available wouldn't be beneficial - not from a regulation standpoint necessarily but in regard to lessening the availability of such weapons. I'm sure that's just down to where I come from though and the knowledge of the impact of restrictions placed in 1990 after the Aramoana massacre here.
Ok, I'll try a different tack.

We can all agree that the War on Drugs is a complete failure, yes? Since that 'war' began we've added millions of non-violent offenders to the criminal justice system, the prices of cocaine and heroin are 80 to 90 percent lower than 30 years ago, and we spend billions of dollars more on policing services than we would have to otherwise. Every time a new non-prescription drug hits the street they have to rush out legislation banning it. Does any of this stop people from doing drugs? No, not in the slightest. I'd say drug use is even more socially accepted now than when the 'war' started because it's now seen as a youthful rebellious act to do a line of coke.

Advocating a soft ban aimed at semi-useful features on weapons you find scary is like banning heroin but leaving every other form of opium legal. All you do is criminalize a bunch of people that were largely just minding their own business and force them underground. Then you need to hire more ATF agents to seek out this underground behavior etc etc the cycle continues. Banning weapons like this is a great way for the people that write the legislation to feel like they've made a positive impact on the world, but it's completely misguided and they end up doing more harm than good in the end.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX
Shooting up cinemas is not really socially acceptable in the mainstream or 'a youthful rebellious act' -  the comparison is ridiculous.
Fuck Israel
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England
The comparison is spot on, you just favor the drug war.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Hurricane2k9
Pendulous Sweaty Balls
+1,538|5941|College Park, MD
I think there have been like two murders committed by Class III firearm license holders. Most murders done with automatic weapons are done with ones that are obtained illegally.
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Frank Reynolds
Member
+65|4568
people who are ranchers or live on a farm should be the only ones allowed to buy guns.  fuck your stupid hunting crap.  and nobody needs to be able to buy 100 round magazines online ffs. no more stupid hillbilly gunshows either.
What are you looking at dicknose
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6740|so randum

-Sh1fty- wrote:

In the case of the movie theater massacre, hip fire the Ar-15 while keeping your finger in your pocket and the recoil makes you fire again quickly. A friend of mine does that and can fire ridiculously fast. pretty much an automatic weapon

regulating automatic weapons is dumb anyway. you can more accurately hit targets in semi auto than full auto
why

are

you

so

dumb
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
mtb0minime
minimember
+2,418|6894

So what's his motivation? Down economy, wants to have a free ride for the rest of his life in prison?
Miggle
FUCK UBISOFT
+1,411|6982|FUCK UBISOFT

Frank Reynolds wrote:

people who are ranchers or live on a farm should be the only ones allowed to buy guns.  fuck your stupid hunting crap.  and nobody needs to be able to buy 100 round magazines online ffs. no more stupid hillbilly gunshows either.
I don't think you understand USM. If somebody else in the theatre had had an M16 with a hicap mag this would never have happened.
https://i.imgur.com/86fodNE.png
_j5689_
Dreads & Bergers
+364|6956|Riva, MD

mtb0minime wrote:

So what's his motivation? Down economy, wants to have a free ride for the rest of his life in prison?
12 kills = death penalty unless they don't have it in Colorado or unless he gets a special ruling for being batshit crazy
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5499|foggy bottom
Im against the death penalty
Tu Stultus Es
PrivateVendetta
I DEMAND XMAS THEME
+704|6431|Roma

HITNRUNXX wrote:

Jay wrote:

some stuff
I am several pages behind, but reading up, so sorry if this is behind. I wanted to add something to this:
Contrary to popular belief (because, you know, it is a gun and all) the M16/.223/5.56 was not designed to kill people. It also was not simply developed en masse because it was cheap. It had a designed purpose. To wound. If you go find the original design requests and initial design notes (assuming they are out there... I had a professor who's dad helped design it and he had copies of a lot of these notes/requests/conversations), you would see that they specifically requested it for this purpose.

The idea  was: If you kill an enemy soldier, he falls and his buddies move on. If you wound an enemy soldier, it takes him out of the fight, plus two of his buddies to drag him to safety, plus attrition as several people are now required to transport and treat him.

So with that being said, it isn't a great choice for either personal defense or for killing lots of people.

Now here is the problem: If you start limiting the weapons that are great are killing people, then you start limiting the weapons that are great at stopping people in defense.
I also heard this. It was also an advantage because the 'wounding' smaller rounds were lighter. The idea kinda falls apart when you're fighting an asymmetric war and you're the only side with disciplined medics and soldiers who pull fighters out of the battle.

Last edited by PrivateVendetta (2012-07-24 10:30:42)

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Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5825

Sounds like bunk
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5499|foggy bottom
I love reading comments from so many war movie watching experts
Tu Stultus Es
PrivateVendetta
I DEMAND XMAS THEME
+704|6431|Roma
"I also heard this"
Means it's not my opinion, it was something someone else said
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