cdailey2142
Flesh Peddler
+14|5033

Jay wrote:

cdailey2142 wrote:

HITNRUNXX wrote:

Guess I am mentally challenged. And proud of it.

I am so sick of everyone screaming tolerance over everything, but religious bashing being considered the new trendy thing to do.
I'm not being insulting when I ask this. But how is it that you can believe in something that has no factual basis what so ever. Nothing in the Bible or any other religion for that matter can be or ever has been proved to be true? And what kills me is most intelligent people who don't believe in things like UFO's, The Loch Ness Monster, Bigfoot or Atlantis which have WAY MORE proof that they exist can believe in a man in the sky? If I google pictures of Jesus Christ, I won't find one pic that someone has taken of Jesus. But I can google Bigfoot and find 100 pics that are supposedly real. Now I know they're not but why believe in something that has nothing to back it up other than a book that's been translated over 200 times.
Your thoughts, insights, and musings on this matter intrigue me
I'm just asking a question that I would ask anyone who believes in religion. And I always get the same answer. "Just take it on faith" But no one takes anything else on faith. If I said to a religious person "Believe in Bigfoot, You just have to take it on faith that Hairy giants walk the forest in the Pacific Northwest" they would call you an idiot. Why the double standard? I am fine with just saying "I don't know what happens when I die" Why do people have to have this "I KNOW FOR SURE" what happens when people die. It fascinates me that people can be so sure of something that could be a complete myth.
13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|6467

cdailey2142 wrote:

It fascinates me that people can be so sure of something that could be a complete myth.
i believed there would be a sequel to Duke Nuke'em. look where that got me . . .
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6375|North Carolina

13urnzz wrote:

cdailey2142 wrote:

It fascinates me that people can be so sure of something that could be a complete myth.
i believed there would be a sequel to Duke Nuke'em. look where that got me . . .
They didn't call it "Duke Nukem Forever" for nothing.
cdailey2142
Flesh Peddler
+14|5033

Turquoise wrote:

13urnzz wrote:

cdailey2142 wrote:

It fascinates me that people can be so sure of something that could be a complete myth.
i believed there would be a sequel to Duke Nuke'em. look where that got me . . .
They didn't call it "Duke Nukem Forever" for nothing.
I believed that my Ex-Wife wasn't a slut and that was BS too!
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England

cdailey2142 wrote:

Jay wrote:

cdailey2142 wrote:


I'm not being insulting when I ask this. But how is it that you can believe in something that has no factual basis what so ever. Nothing in the Bible or any other religion for that matter can be or ever has been proved to be true? And what kills me is most intelligent people who don't believe in things like UFO's, The Loch Ness Monster, Bigfoot or Atlantis which have WAY MORE proof that they exist can believe in a man in the sky? If I google pictures of Jesus Christ, I won't find one pic that someone has taken of Jesus. But I can google Bigfoot and find 100 pics that are supposedly real. Now I know they're not but why believe in something that has nothing to back it up other than a book that's been translated over 200 times.
Your thoughts, insights, and musings on this matter intrigue me
I'm just asking a question that I would ask anyone who believes in religion. And I always get the same answer. "Just take it on faith" But no one takes anything else on faith. If I said to a religious person "Believe in Bigfoot, You just have to take it on faith that Hairy giants walk the forest in the Pacific Northwest" they would call you an idiot. Why the double standard? I am fine with just saying "I don't know what happens when I die" Why do people have to have this "I KNOW FOR SURE" what happens when people die. It fascinates me that people can be so sure of something that could be a complete myth.
It fascinates me that you think that your thoughts are original and haven't already been expressed a million times on this very forum. No one cares why you don't believe in god. You have to be a teenager, because you have this whole "I've discovered a new truth and want to share it with the world!" thing going on.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
cdailey2142
Flesh Peddler
+14|5033

Jay wrote:

cdailey2142 wrote:

Jay wrote:


Your thoughts, insights, and musings on this matter intrigue me
I'm just asking a question that I would ask anyone who believes in religion. And I always get the same answer. "Just take it on faith" But no one takes anything else on faith. If I said to a religious person "Believe in Bigfoot, You just have to take it on faith that Hairy giants walk the forest in the Pacific Northwest" they would call you an idiot. Why the double standard? I am fine with just saying "I don't know what happens when I die" Why do people have to have this "I KNOW FOR SURE" what happens when people die. It fascinates me that people can be so sure of something that could be a complete myth.
It fascinates me that you think that your thoughts are original and haven't already been expressed a million times on this very forum. No one cares why you don't believe in god. You have to be a teenager, because you have this whole "I've discovered a new truth and want to share it with the world!" thing going on.
I don't think my thoughts are original. And I'm sure my feelings have been expressed millions of times. But I still haven't heard one solid reason why anyone would believe in religion. Why can't a religious person for once in  history explain how they by in to all the BS? I'm not trying to bash anyone  I just want a reasonable answer to how someone is SO SURE of what happens when you die. And no I'm not in my teens or even twenties. If you don't have anything to add to the discussion DR. Shit for Brains then have a nice hot cup of shut the fuck up and go to another thread.
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5149|Sydney

-Sh1fty- wrote:

Aren't atheists the people always preaching tolerance?
Doesn't it say in the bible to "love thy neighbour"?
jord
Member
+2,382|6648|The North, beyond the wall.

cdailey2142 wrote:

Jay wrote:

cdailey2142 wrote:


I'm just asking a question that I would ask anyone who believes in religion. And I always get the same answer. "Just take it on faith" But no one takes anything else on faith. If I said to a religious person "Believe in Bigfoot, You just have to take it on faith that Hairy giants walk the forest in the Pacific Northwest" they would call you an idiot. Why the double standard? I am fine with just saying "I don't know what happens when I die" Why do people have to have this "I KNOW FOR SURE" what happens when people die. It fascinates me that people can be so sure of something that could be a complete myth.
It fascinates me that you think that your thoughts are original and haven't already been expressed a million times on this very forum. No one cares why you don't believe in god. You have to be a teenager, because you have this whole "I've discovered a new truth and want to share it with the world!" thing going on.
I don't think my thoughts are original. And I'm sure my feelings have been expressed millions of times. But I still haven't heard one solid reason why anyone would believe in religion. Why can't a religious person for once in  history explain how they by in to all the BS? I'm not trying to bash anyone  I just want a reasonable answer to how someone is SO SURE of what happens when you die. And no I'm not in my teens or even twenties. If you don't have anything to add to the discussion DR. Shit for Brains then have a nice hot cup of shut the fuck up and go to another thread.
Because their parents were religious. It's the same principle as people who vote for a certain political party because they inherited their beliefs on the matter. It's nothing new.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England

cdailey2142 wrote:

Jay wrote:

cdailey2142 wrote:


I'm just asking a question that I would ask anyone who believes in religion. And I always get the same answer. "Just take it on faith" But no one takes anything else on faith. If I said to a religious person "Believe in Bigfoot, You just have to take it on faith that Hairy giants walk the forest in the Pacific Northwest" they would call you an idiot. Why the double standard? I am fine with just saying "I don't know what happens when I die" Why do people have to have this "I KNOW FOR SURE" what happens when people die. It fascinates me that people can be so sure of something that could be a complete myth.
It fascinates me that you think that your thoughts are original and haven't already been expressed a million times on this very forum. No one cares why you don't believe in god. You have to be a teenager, because you have this whole "I've discovered a new truth and want to share it with the world!" thing going on.
I don't think my thoughts are original. And I'm sure my feelings have been expressed millions of times. But I still haven't heard one solid reason why anyone would believe in religion. Why can't a religious person for once in  history explain how they by in to all the BS? I'm not trying to bash anyone  I just want a reasonable answer to how someone is SO SURE of what happens when you die. And no I'm not in my teens or even twenties. If you don't have anything to add to the discussion DR. Shit for Brains then have a nice hot cup of shut the fuck up and go to another thread.
How about for the exact same reason you feel so sure of yourself? Can you prove what happens after you die? No. Does it matter if someone else believes that they go and sit on a cloud and play the lyre? No. You have just as much of a chance of proving that there is a god as you have of proving there isn't; no chance. So good luck with your crusade. You're just as preachy as the religious people you claim to despise.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
cdailey2142
Flesh Peddler
+14|5033
Next to Christians which make up a little over 76%, Agnostic and Atheists make up more than 16% of the US people. That's more than Jews, Muslims, Hindu, and all other religions combined!

http://religions.pewforum.org/reports
cdailey2142
Flesh Peddler
+14|5033

Jay wrote:

cdailey2142 wrote:

Jay wrote:


It fascinates me that you think that your thoughts are original and haven't already been expressed a million times on this very forum. No one cares why you don't believe in god. You have to be a teenager, because you have this whole "I've discovered a new truth and want to share it with the world!" thing going on.
I don't think my thoughts are original. And I'm sure my feelings have been expressed millions of times. But I still haven't heard one solid reason why anyone would believe in religion. Why can't a religious person for once in  history explain how they by in to all the BS? I'm not trying to bash anyone  I just want a reasonable answer to how someone is SO SURE of what happens when you die. And no I'm not in my teens or even twenties. If you don't have anything to add to the discussion DR. Shit for Brains then have a nice hot cup of shut the fuck up and go to another thread.
How about for the exact same reason you feel so sure of yourself? Can you prove what happens after you die? No. Does it matter if someone else believes that they go and sit on a cloud and play the lyre? No. You have just as much of a chance of proving that there is a god as you have of proving there isn't; no chance. So good luck with your crusade. You're just as preachy as the religious people you claim to despise.
I preach the religion of "I don't Know" and there's a big difference. I'm not doubling down on God just to be safe in case he does exist. I just simply say "I'm not sure".
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England
You've been pretty fucking adamant and arrogant about being right throughout this thread. You haven't said "I don't know" once. You've questioned the intelligence of religious people and affected an air of superiority. Don't backtrack now.

It takes just as much faith to disbelieve as it does to believe. It's two sides of the same coin. Now get off my fucking lawn.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
HITNRUNXX
Member
+220|6680|Oklahoma City
You are preaching doubt. That is, in my opinion, even worse than preaching SOMETHING... You are simply tearing down without building back up. It is fine for you to not believe in something. But I am not going to sit here and cram religion down your throat, and I would expect the same courtesy from you, and ask you not to cram anti-religion down my throat.
jord
Member
+2,382|6648|The North, beyond the wall.
I read the God delusion I'll have you know.
jord
Member
+2,382|6648|The North, beyond the wall.
I found the parts about the "god of gaps" to be very interesting, n ting
HaiBai
Your thoughts, insights, and musings on this matter intrigue me
+304|5454|Bolingbrook, Illinois

cdailey2142 wrote:

Jay wrote:

cdailey2142 wrote:


I'm not being insulting when I ask this. But how is it that you can believe in something that has no factual basis what so ever. Nothing in the Bible or any other religion for that matter can be or ever has been proved to be true? And what kills me is most intelligent people who don't believe in things like UFO's, The Loch Ness Monster, Bigfoot or Atlantis which have WAY MORE proof that they exist can believe in a man in the sky? If I google pictures of Jesus Christ, I won't find one pic that someone has taken of Jesus. But I can google Bigfoot and find 100 pics that are supposedly real. Now I know they're not but why believe in something that has nothing to back it up other than a book that's been translated over 200 times.
Your thoughts, insights, and musings on this matter intrigue me
I'm just asking a question that I would ask anyone who believes in religion. And I always get the same answer. "Just take it on faith" But no one takes anything else on faith. If I said to a religious person "Believe in Bigfoot, You just have to take it on faith that Hairy giants walk the forest in the Pacific Northwest" they would call you an idiot. Why the double standard? I am fine with just saying "I don't know what happens when I die" Why do people have to have this "I KNOW FOR SURE" what happens when people die. It fascinates me that people can be so sure of something that could be a complete myth.
what the fuck?

speaking as the only religious person on the forum who actually believes in evolution, separation of church and state, and all the shit that atheists fight for, i believe and have faith in my religion because i truthfully feel that it affects my life.  i don't sit around and read the bible and take everything it says and treat it as factual.  i constantly challenge my beliefs and i do believe that it makes me a better person and affects my life in a positive way.  sort of like that banner.

you're trying to compare that to big foot?  you're out of your mind.
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6470|so randum
^ is good

i'm an atheist, but i've no problem with people believing in *something* even without proof, if it helps them lead a happier life or whatever. i only really hate it when it's shoved in my face (what ty was saying probably ties in here, i havn't thought about it enough) or taught in schools as 'THIS IS HOW IT HAPPENED' without at least the counter arguments/theorys.

and in that regard, rabid atheists are as terrible as rabid catholics/muslims/pastafarians.
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6375|North Carolina

cdailey2142 wrote:

Jay wrote:

cdailey2142 wrote:


I'm just asking a question that I would ask anyone who believes in religion. And I always get the same answer. "Just take it on faith" But no one takes anything else on faith. If I said to a religious person "Believe in Bigfoot, You just have to take it on faith that Hairy giants walk the forest in the Pacific Northwest" they would call you an idiot. Why the double standard? I am fine with just saying "I don't know what happens when I die" Why do people have to have this "I KNOW FOR SURE" what happens when people die. It fascinates me that people can be so sure of something that could be a complete myth.
It fascinates me that you think that your thoughts are original and haven't already been expressed a million times on this very forum. No one cares why you don't believe in god. You have to be a teenager, because you have this whole "I've discovered a new truth and want to share it with the world!" thing going on.
I don't think my thoughts are original. And I'm sure my feelings have been expressed millions of times. But I still haven't heard one solid reason why anyone would believe in religion. Why can't a religious person for once in  history explain how they by in to all the BS? I'm not trying to bash anyone  I just want a reasonable answer to how someone is SO SURE of what happens when you die. And no I'm not in my teens or even twenties. If you don't have anything to add to the discussion DR. Shit for Brains then have a nice hot cup of shut the fuck up and go to another thread.
It's like what HitNRun said earlier.  It's essentially similar to love.

I love my girlfriend, but I can't give you a logical explanation for why I do.  I can list out things I like about her, but I can't explain why I feel the way I do about her.

People who truly believe in a religion love whatever deity(ies) it is they worship.  Obviously, loving a person is different from loving a concept, but it's rooted in a similar emotional response.
Ty
Mass Media Casualty
+2,398|6745|Noizyland

I didn't realise Bill Maher had a bf2s.com account.

I also don't get how religion is supposed to really help people or how the suspension of disbelief, (faith,) is seen as a positive trait. I certainly don't like the suggestion that having religion equals having moral values. To be perfectly honest I also find it hard to think why rational people can believe in any organised religion; Humans are generally seek logical explanations and religion doesn't really offer anything logical. I also disagree with HITNRUN that 'doubt' is a negative outlook to have. The way I see it many problems in the world come from people being certain about stuff for whatever reason - Humans suck at getting things right now let alone 2000-or-whatever years ago. I think doubt is humble and false certainty has been proven to generally do more harm than good.

But personal spirituality has never bothered me and I think that all people have this, even lifetime semi-militant atheists like myself. Some in the form or established religions, some in their own individual theories - I have a friend who believes that humanity is being judged by an intergalactic council and Atlantians existed, (they were super-advanced humans who went awry with power and had to be destroyed.) These beliefs have little to no evidence to back them up, we may not believe in them whole-heartedly but they're just there. Gut feelings, call them what you will. Thing is you're never going to get around personal beliefs and the problem with differing personal beliefs. Organised religion, yeah I have a problem with it. Establishments that blow themselves up or systematically rape children or harass grieving families or deny rights to others and in places like the US don't even have to pay taxes for some unknown reason - personally I wouldn't want to be involved in anything like this. But a personal belief in God is only a problem if the person wants it to be and I think it has very little impact on one's character. If God was out of the picture Humans would find something else to justify themselves - this is the same for those who are charitable in the name of God, those who murder abortion doctors in the name of God and those, the majority, who just go about their daily lives.

Back to the banner - I agree that its message was good. I think the best outcome would be when Miss Ahlquist raised the problem with the school they dealt with it themselves, perhaps turning it from a school prayer into a more secular school motto by simply removing the "Our heavenly father, grant us..." and "amen" bits. Message is unchanged, tradition maintained, no media circus and no-one get's pissed off at each other. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess.
[Blinking eyes thing]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5149|Sydney

Ty wrote:

I also disagree with HITNRUN that 'doubt' is a negative outlook to have. The way I see it many problems in the world come from people being certain about stuff for whatever reason - Humans suck at getting things right now let alone 2000-or-whatever years ago. I think doubt is humble and false certainty has been proven to generally do more harm than good.
Totally agree. It was this doubt that led to the pursuit of science as we know it today. And if you disagree I suggest you log off from your account, sell your worldly possessions and go join the Amish.

Last edited by Jaekus (2012-01-30 15:37:24)

HaiBai
Your thoughts, insights, and musings on this matter intrigue me
+304|5454|Bolingbrook, Illinois

Ty wrote:

I also don't get how religion is supposed to really help people or how the suspension of disbelief, (faith,) is seen as a positive trait. I certainly don't like the suggestion that having religion equals having moral values. To be perfectly honest I also find it hard to think why rational people can believe in any organised religion; Humans are generally seek logical explanations and religion doesn't really offer anything logical.
there's nothing irrational or illogical for having a belief in a god.  there's as much proof for religion as there is no proof, which is 0.  i can easily be religious and still believe in evolution or the big bang theory.

Ty wrote:

Organised religion, yeah I have a problem with it. Establishments that blow themselves up or systematically rape children or harass grieving families or deny rights to others and in places like the US don't even have to pay taxes for some unknown reason - personally I wouldn't want to be involved in anything like this. But a personal belief in God is only a problem if the person wants it to be and I think it has very little impact on one's character. If God was out of the picture Humans would find something else to justify themselves - this is the same for those who are charitable in the name of God, those who murder abortion doctors in the name of God and those, the majority, who just go about their daily lives.
systematically rape children?  harass grieving families?  deny rights to others?

what are you talking about man?  is this some ridiculous mixed view between the 'priests touch little boys' stereotype and the westboro baptist church?

you're trying to make religion seem like it's a person's way to come up with a reason for their existence, which simply isn't true.  i don't go to church or pray because i'm forced to, scared of going to hell, or trying to come up with a reason i exist.  i continue to explore my faith because it makes me a better person.  i don't mean that directly as in, "following the commandments gives me a good set of morals to follow that allow me to be a good contributor to society."  i mean, it makes me a better person because it helps me progress through life's challenges and hardships.  religion helps me become a stronger person.  sure, you can claim that i'm just weak and i have to resort to a religion to get through life's challenges, but at the same time i can claim you have no idea what you're talking about because you simply don't have the same insight into religion as i do.  you don't know what it feels like to have a faith or belief in a god, so i don't see how you can make arguments based on logic and rationale.

there's another thing that truly bothers me about atheism in itself.  being a christian is about practicing christianity.  being a muslim is about practicing islam.  being an atheist is about practicing atheism.  oh wait, you can't practice atheism.  yet at the same time, atheists try to talk to theists about their religion.  it's ridiculous.

let's make a small analogy.  let's say there is a group called the VideoGamers and a group called the AVideoGamers, where the VideoGamers play video games while AVideoGamers dont.  there's tons of little subgeneres of VideoGamers who all enjoy their specific type of video games.  they enjoy playing them as hobbies and whatever else.  then, the AVideoGamers show up and start telling the VideoGamers that they're wasting their time, that video games lead to violence, and a bunch of other bullshit that they simply don't know what they're talking about because they simply don't know anything about video games.

that's basically how i feel about you making all of these opinions and assumptions on religion.  you don't know what you're talking about because you've never experienced religion.

the only reason that analogy doesn't work is because atheists should still fight for their rights.  they shouldn't let other people's beliefs get pushed onto them because they are free to believe whatever they want.

so basically, the only time atheists are really allowed to talk is when it involves them.  otherwise, they need to shut up and mind their own business
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5229|foggy bottom

Jay wrote:

eleven bravo wrote:

its on school property. doesnt matter if it was placed by the school or not.  by keeping it there, it is considered an endorsement by the school of one religious belief over the other
"Our heavenly father" is fairly ambiguous...
not if youre a hindu, buddhist, scientologist, animist, atheist or feminist
Tu Stultus Es
HITNRUNXX
Member
+220|6680|Oklahoma City

Jaekus wrote:

Ty wrote:

I also disagree with HITNRUN that 'doubt' is a negative outlook to have. The way I see it many problems in the world come from people being certain about stuff for whatever reason - Humans suck at getting things right now let alone 2000-or-whatever years ago. I think doubt is humble and false certainty has been proven to generally do more harm than good.
Totally agree. It was this doubt that led to the pursuit of science as we know it today. And if you disagree I suggest you log off from your account, sell your worldly possessions and go join the Amish.
Doubting your own beliefs and then finding why you believe what you believe is a good thing. Doubting other people's believes and telling them they are mentally challenged for having them is a different story.

You can believe whatever you want, but don't cram your belief or lack thereof down other people's throats... Ty's post was a great example of how to share an opinion that is different than mine in a way to still gain my respect. You don't have to believe what I do, but don't call me retarded for it.
Ty
Mass Media Casualty
+2,398|6745|Noizyland

HaiBai wrote:

Ty wrote:

I also don't get how religion is supposed to really help people or how the suspension of disbelief, (faith,) is seen as a positive trait. I certainly don't like the suggestion that having religion equals having moral values. To be perfectly honest I also find it hard to think why rational people can believe in any organised religion; Humans are generally seek logical explanations and religion doesn't really offer anything logical.
there's nothing irrational or illogical for having a belief in a god.  there's as much proof for religion as there is no proof, which is 0.  i can easily be religious and still believe in evolution or the big bang theory.
See I'd disagree on your first point. Given that no 'sides' have any proof the logical conclusion would be one of "we don't know" on the big questions. To a certain extent this comes from the belief that holy texts and religion are man-made but again, concluding that these are not man-made is not a conclusion based on logic. I wasn't saying that a belief in religion means someone can't make logical conclusions about other things either, merely pointing out that as this is the case why does logic go on holiday where religion is concerned?

HaiBai wrote:

Ty wrote:

Organised religion, yeah I have a problem with it. Establishments that blow themselves up or systematically rape children or harass grieving families or deny rights to others and in places like the US don't even have to pay taxes for some unknown reason - personally I wouldn't want to be involved in anything like this. But a personal belief in God is only a problem if the person wants it to be and I think it has very little impact on one's character. If God was out of the picture Humans would find something else to justify themselves - this is the same for those who are charitable in the name of God, those who murder abortion doctors in the name of God and those, the majority, who just go about their daily lives.
systematically rape children?  harass grieving families?  deny rights to others?

what are you talking about man?  is this some ridiculous mixed view between the 'priests touch little boys' stereotype and the westboro baptist church?
Systematic was a bit of a hyperbole but you can't deny that it happens too frequently to be considered one-offs. It's not a stereotype, simply an observation based on what has occurred. As to the rest - well yeah, religion is responsible for a lot of these things. People have justified countless atrocities in the name of faith, be they religion-based or otherwise, (faith in eugenics for example.) What I'm saying is that personally if I considered myself religious I'd be very unhappy with the establishment, enough that I wouldn't want to associate myself with it. The same way I wouldn't want myself to be associated with a corporation that exploited child labour in developing nations. Given that spirituality is a deeply personal thing I see no need for the wider establishment of religion that acts the way it does. I mean what purpose does the Vatican serve really? That's where I'm coming from anyway.

HaiBai wrote:

you're trying to make religion seem like it's a person's way to come up with a reason for their existence, which simply isn't true.  i don't go to church or pray because i'm forced to, scared of going to hell, or trying to come up with a reason i exist.  i continue to explore my faith because it makes me a better person.  i don't mean that directly as in, "following the commandments gives me a good set of morals to follow that allow me to be a good contributor to society."  i mean, it makes me a better person because it helps me progress through life's challenges and hardships.  religion helps me become a stronger person.  sure, you can claim that i'm just weak and i have to resort to a religion to get through life's challenges, but at the same time i can claim you have no idea what you're talking about because you simply don't have the same insight into religion as i do.  you don't know what it feels like to have a faith or belief in a god, so i don't see how you can make arguments based on logic and rationale.
No I'm not, in fact I'm doing just the opposite. I'm saying that a person's character is not determined by their religion, that it is merely an aspect. That religion in itself is a luxury to those with faith - even if I do feel it is unnecessary to me. I don't think faith is necessarily a weakness, more a comforter. I have no issue with that either, people find comfort where they can and the Bible is convenient.

HaiBai wrote:

there's another thing that truly bothers me about atheism in itself.  being a christian is about practicing christianity.  being a muslim is about practicing islam.  being an atheist is about practicing atheism.  oh wait, you can't practice atheism.  yet at the same time, atheists try to talk to theists about their religion.  it's ridiculous.
Well first I'd take issue with that assumption that being a Christian et al. is about practising Christianity et al. In terms of Christianity this means following the teachings of Christ - but how many Christians do you really think do this? This goes back to my point that religion and spirituality are a personal thing. A person's character is not significantly changed by whether or not they have faith. A Christian can use the teachings of Christ to do good things for themselves or others or they can use the teachings of Christ to swindle a lot of old ladies out of their retirement funds. Non-religious people are equally capable of using their own reasoning to justify their own actions to do similarly. But on to your main point: See with Miss Ahlquist seeking to take down the banner, she wasn't enforcing some atheist dogma here she was enforcing secularism. That's the key thing here, these militant atheists you see around wanting to take down nativity scenes or whatever aren't doing it based on the tenets of atheism, (or whatever,) they're just enforcing secularism. We've seen it on this thread; people are saying either get rid of the banner or put up banners reflecting every other faith. That doesn't seem to me like preaching non-belief although I won't deny that it does happen. But generally it's an old argument that has been going on between religious and non-religious alike for centuries; it's debating the big questions. See I don't feel like you're pressuring me to believe your way while we're having this discussion and I hope you don't feel that I'm pressuring you to believe mine.

HaiBai wrote:

let's make a small analogy.  let's say there is a group called the VideoGamers and a group called the AVideoGamers, where the VideoGamers play video games while AVideoGamers dont.  there's tons of little subgeneres of VideoGamers who all enjoy their specific type of video games.  they enjoy playing them as hobbies and whatever else.  then, the AVideoGamers show up and start telling the VideoGamers that they're wasting their time, that video games lead to violence, and a bunch of other bullshit that they simply don't know what they're talking about because they simply don't know anything about video games.

that's basically how i feel about you making all of these opinions and assumptions on religion.  you don't know what you're talking about because you've never experienced religion.
No I've never experienced personal faith, I have experienced religion. You can't say an atheists's opinion is invalid anyway, what about the many atheists who were raised in religious environments and lost their faith? To tell you about my own background I was raised in a household that never seemed to have any religious direction. By my own disposition I read the Bible, (mostly the children's version,) I enjoyed the stories, I even went to a Christian camp. For the longest time I just assumed I was a Christian, (as did my parents,) but I realised that I just didn't believe any of the stories as fact. I keep up my interest though and continued learning about it for interest's sake which is why I still like getting involved in debates like this.

I get your analogy and where you're coming from with it but I don't think that a person's opinion on religion and faith can be discredited because they are not a part of a religion. It's like back when Lowing was arguing that Obama shouldn't have been a law lecturer because he never practised law, (he did.) -  It's not about the practise, it's about the knowledge. At least as far as religious debate goes.

HaiBai wrote:

the only reason that analogy doesn't work is because atheists should still fight for their rights.  they shouldn't let other people's beliefs get pushed onto them because they are free to believe whatever they want.

so basically, the only time atheists are really allowed to talk is when it involves them.  otherwise, they need to shut up and mind their own business
This is generally the case too. I have friends and family of varying beliefs, (aforementioned Atlantian guy,) and faith rarely comes up. No-one antagonises anyone else about what they do or don't believe. I still think religious debates are healthy, (and to me, fun,) but they're pretty inconsequential. No side's every really going to convince the other and a consensus is pretty damn unlikely - that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. When it comes to a head though like in this case of the school banner I think both sides can be logical about it instead of panicking with one side saying "it's God being forced on our children", (it wasn't,)  and the other saying "atheism is trying to kill religion", (it's not.)
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Miggle
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I don't actually read threads in DST but I saw a video of this girl talking at some atheist convention and she was a total bitch.

Last edited by Miggle (2012-01-30 19:16:17)

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