Haha.FEOS wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EspnKEN-JENNINGS wrote:
show me your facts.
ESPN (and sports media) was nowhere near the same 20 years ago...10 years ago. You're crazy if you believe that.
ESPN was launched in 1979
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Young
Steve Young played in the NFL from 85-99.
As to the focus on Christianity vs other religions in sports:
http://www.mrc.org/cmi/cmi/articles/201 … ports.html
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/paul-wilso … -his-faith
That's just a few.
If you need more, let me know.
NBC Sports wrote:
The personal attacks and angry facial expressions that follow Tebow seem to have less to do with Denver’s 1-4 record than they do with Romans 1:16, which reads “For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ.” That’s one of the verses Tebow inked beneath his eyes at Florida, during that season when his eyeblack had more Scripture than the bedside table at an airport Sheraton.
Time wrote:
It’s hard to argue that today’s Evangelical Christians are a persecuted religious minority on the order of those two groups. But Tebow can help, all the same. In fact, he already has. “In the eyes of Evangelicals, Tebow is saved,” says Remillard. “No matter what, Evangelicals win.”
Nah. Not at all.USA Today wrote:
CBS Sports game analyst Randy Cross believes Tebow haters are bashing him for his outspoken Christian opinions.
"People, especially the media, root against him because of what he stands for," said Cross.
The 3-time Super Bowl champ added: "My personal belief is there are people in the media, people in the stands, who are predisposed to see a guy like that fail ... Just because he's so public about the way he feels."
What If Tim Tebow Were a Muslim?
By Jen Engel
Published December 07, 2011
| FoxNews.com
Imagine for a second, the Denver Broncos quarterback is a devout follower of Islam, sincere and principled in his beliefs and thus bowed toward Mecca to celebrate touchdowns. Now imagine if Detroit Lions player Stephen Tulluch and Tony Scheffler mockingly bowed toward Mecca, too, after tackling him for a loss or scoring a touchdown, just like what happened in October.
I know what would happen. All hell would break loose.
Stinging indictments issued by sports columnists. At least a few outraged religious leaders chiming in on his behalf. Depending on what else had happened that day, they might have a chance at becoming Keith Olbermann's Worst Person In The World.
And there would be apologies. Oh, Lord, would there be apologies -- by players, by coaches, possibly by ownership with a tiny chance of a statement by NFL commish Roger Goodell.
You cannot mock Muslim faith, not in this country, not anywhere really.
It is primarily a respect issue, because religion is sacred and should be off limits. Yet when Tulloch and Scheffler dropped to a knew to mock how Tebow prays -- an action known as "Tebowing" that has gone viral among the public, too -- we yawned and told Christians to lighten up. We blamed Tebow for making a show of honoring God rather than himself in moments of joy. We excused them because Tulloch said he was mocking "Tebowing" not God.
Because ridiculing a man who chooses to honor God is so much better, right?
Nor has the ridicule abated as Tebow grows in football prominence. He is 6-1 since being named Denver's starting quarterback, has engineered a string of amazing comebacks, is improving as a passer and many still rip him for pointing to heaven as a thank you to God after a good play.
His religious fervor is an easy target for the vitriol spewed from those who dislike him, but the reasons are much deeper than that. From his advocacy of abstinence and pro-life to his infamous "You will never see another team play this hard" speech at Florida, it is like he is too good to be true. He is too nice, and thereby we want him to trip up so we can feel better. We want him to be revealed as a hypocrite or insincere, and when that fails to happen, we settle for gleefully celebrating his failures on the football field. Former NFL quarterback Jake Plummer recently opined Tebow needed to quit whipping us with his belief. And why? Because he dares to say thanks?
I keep telling myself I am done with this Tebow debate only to be drawn offside, by a Lions player I had never heard of and a viral web meme that had fans flooding an ESPN story's comments section with viciously funny, yet downright mean and very sacrilegious quips of the "X>Tebow" formula. And now Plummer and another former NFL quarterback and believer, Kurt Warner, have been added to this cacophony of ugly hatred.
What this whole repeating cycle of Tebow -- rip his game, mock his faith, rise to his defense, repeat -- has revealed about religious discourse in America is ugly. We have become so enamored of politically correct dogma that we protect every minority from even the slightest blush of insensitivity while letting the very institutions that the majority holds dear to be ridiculed. And this defense that Tebow invites such scrutiny with his willingness to publicly live as he privately believes calls into question what exactly it is we value.
One of the things CBS NFL analyst Boomer Esiason got right in his vicious, radio-show takedown on Tebow as a quarterback was how personal the criticism is. A good many NFL players and fans seem to be rooting for this guy to be a massive failure.
I could not figure out what was causing this onslaught of venom for a guy almost everybody claims to like, and I finally decided it is more about us. He makes us uncomfortable. He is a reminder that the blue-red, liberal conservative fight over taking God out of everyday life is intellectually dishonest.
Tebow is proof that God goes comfortably into whatever arena of your life you wish to take him.
I used to work with a great guy, Simon Gonzalez, a very devout Christian, and he prayed before every meal. Others would be killing free press meals and he would stop, bow his head and silently say thanks. He was not making a spectacle of his beliefs. He believed that God deserved thanks for what we before him, and not just when convenient for Simon. And people would squirm -- not because what he was doing was wrong but because it was right. It is the same for Tebow.
There is no organized prayer led by Goodell before every game and no mandate for a post-touchdown prayer. Players such as Tebow -- and he certainly is not alone in his belief and faith in the league -- do so because consciences request is. The Bible requires it.
That others chose to mock -- and Tulloch is in good company with many journalists I call friends and web posters with a wicked sense of humor -- reminds me very much of the final line of The Paradoxical Commandments so often attributed to Mother Teresa. "You see, in the final analysis, it is between you and God; it was never between you and them anyway."
And everybody gets dropped in the grease on this one.
The defenses of Tebow, by Christians, are so ugly it defeats the point. This is where Christianity so often loses people, the ardent preaching of the gospel of "I'm Right, You're Wrong" and the demand for tolerance and the unwillingness to grant it. Because if Tebow were Muslim and did celebrate by bowing to Mecca, that would deserve respect, too. Same for a Jewish player, yet why do I not see that blowing up into an ugly mess as well? The level of discourse about religion in this country is frankly embarrassing, a bastard child of political discourse.
The only one who looks good in all this -- maybe too good for some -- is Tebow.
I find it especially telling that Tebow rarely lectures and does not fight back. He did not create Tebowing, nor is he responsible for it blowing up hipster style. It was kind of cool, I thought, after hearing a kid had said he was "Tebowing" while getting chemo.Tebow is just a guy with the good sense to say thanks. Instead of taking his cue, we mock his faith.
And that says more about us, none of it good.
Jen Engel is a columnist for Fox Sports. You can follow her as "Jen Engel" on Twitter, e-mail her or like her on Facebook.
your argument was that other religious groups probably wouldn't be treated the same way. 'some what if it happened if it were a muslim' blog is your backup. OK.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
the general comments i've seen and heard on sports talk radio are directed towards him making a big deal about his faith, not the faith itself. It's because he's putting it out there and seemingly rubbing it in people's faces.-Sh1fty- wrote:
Don't take it out of context.Macbeth wrote:
Also didn't the bible say some stuff about not making a show of faith? One of the bible verses I like (aside from the things about killing witches and other fun stuff) is Romans 14:22- The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God.
What do you think?
Don't forget the verse that says to go out and preach the Gospel to all the people.
If you make fun of somebody for their faith you're an ass. Nobody has any respect these days.
The Bible also says to honor God in all things. Tebow is doing this by praying before games, giving thanks for a score, etc.
What he needs to do is develop some kind of praise Jesus touchdown dance. Thinking maybe pretending to walk on water or raising one of his teammates from the dead.
FEOS wrote:
Did he do that because of his religion or because of political views (though with Islam, it is often difficult to extricate the two)?KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
There was a basketball player named Mahmoud Abdul Rauf who turned his back during the national anthem. He got massive amounts of airtime and shit talked for that. Good thing I didn't take that bet or you'd owe me approximately one cookie, FEOS
The league actually suspended him for it and forced him to stop doing it.
I still don't see that as a slam dunk, case closed, no further discussion on the topic, argument against my point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Del … l_activismHe is also against the occupation of Iraq. In the 2004 season, Delgado protested the war by silently staying in the dugout during the playing of "God Bless America" during the seventh inning stretch. Delgado does not make a public show of his beliefs, and even his teammates were not aware of his views until a story was published in July 2004 in the Toronto Star. Delgado was quoted as saying "It's a very terrible thing that happened on September 11. It's (also) a terrible thing that happened in Afghanistan and Iraq, ... I just feel so sad for the families that lost relatives and loved ones in the war. But I think it's the stupidest war ever." The story was the subject of a media frenzy, mostly in New York, where on July 21, 2004, as was anticipated, Delgado was booed by Yankee fans for his passive protest during a game at Yankee Stadium.
Last edited by Jay (2012-01-06 08:00:44)
He's visibly happy. People hate visibly happy people. It makes them feel bad about themselves for not being more happy.FEOS wrote:
How is he "attention whoring" and "rubbing it in everyone's face" exactly?DUnlimited wrote:
I am pretty sure they would. Probably more enthusiastically.FEOS wrote:
I wonder if there were an NFL player just as vocally devout in his Muslim, Buddhist, Jewish, or <insert one> faith if he would be as relentlessly attacked for it.
I'm betting not.
The problems here isn't his faith here, extreme atheists are just as laughable when they do stupid shit. It's the attention whoring and the "rubbing it on everyone's face" -part of his faith that gets on people. Would you not laugh at a muslim player bowing towards Mecca on the field?
That's the part I don't understand. He takes a knee in the end zone (as do many other players). He takes a knee on the side line and visibly prays (as do many other players). He thanks his "personal Lord and Savior" first and foremost (as do many other athletes from many other sports when starting interviews).
Again--what's the deal? How is he really that different in the grand scheme of things?
No, we don't know that. I offered up one example of a dude getting shitted on for it. You offered up a blog asking 'what if'. Serious facts to back up your argument itt.FEOS wrote:
That "what if he were a Muslim" thing is basically showing that it wouldn't happen if he were a Muslim. Because people realize the repercussions from CAIR and the like would be too great to treat him the same way if he were.
You know that. Anyone with an objective, analytical cell in their brain knows that. The same if he were Jewish and got treated this way. The calls of antisemitism from the ADL would be overpowering.
Nobody cares that Christians/evangelicals have their feelings hurt. Hence the Time Magazine link I provided. Even Time recognizes that they are the one group (in addition to maybe fat people) that it's acceptable to still mock with no concerns of blowback.
You got me on Buddhists. They probably wouldn't care, tbh. But if he were to go all lotus in the endzone, it would probably cause a delay of game.
Last edited by Wreckognize (2012-01-06 10:41:22)
No. You didn't. Serious facts to back up your argument itt.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
No, we don't know that. I offered up one example of a dude getting shitted on for it. You offered up a blog asking 'what if'. Serious facts to back up your argument itt.FEOS wrote:
That "what if he were a Muslim" thing is basically showing that it wouldn't happen if he were a Muslim. Because people realize the repercussions from CAIR and the like would be too great to treat him the same way if he were.
You know that. Anyone with an objective, analytical cell in their brain knows that. The same if he were Jewish and got treated this way. The calls of antisemitism from the ADL would be overpowering.
Nobody cares that Christians/evangelicals have their feelings hurt. Hence the Time Magazine link I provided. Even Time recognizes that they are the one group (in addition to maybe fat people) that it's acceptable to still mock with no concerns of blowback.
You got me on Buddhists. They probably wouldn't care, tbh. But if he were to go all lotus in the endzone, it would probably cause a delay of game.
FEOS, you do understand that a lot of it is backlash against the fanboy Christians that have turned him into the second coming regardless of his actual talent? They don't care if he throws ten interceptions a day, as long as he's in the public eye and preaching, they will cheer him on, and tell everyone else how awesome he is. Evangelicals do that sort of crap with everything. They have their own music, their own books, their own politics, and pretty much flip the bird at the rest of society. Well, the revulsion towards Tebow is what you get in turn.FEOS wrote:
One guy. One instance. Minor kerfuffle. You weren't even sure enough about it to get the guy's name right.
Compared to one guy getting shit tons of grief, repeatedly, from all directions for months on end. All over multiple media outlets.
Yeah. It's exactly the same thing.
Not even the same ballpark. Hell, not even the same fucking sport, and you know it. You're trying to use pedantry to prove a point you know is a loser from the start. Yes, it's uncomfortable to admit to the hypocrisy in our society. You may or may not agree with it. If you've been going along with it, it may make you even more uncomfortable to admit to it. But any degree of intellectual honesty demands it.
The current societal situation in the US makes it OK to mock a devout Christian and would not allow the same mocking of a devout Muslim/Jew/whatever. That just is. Denying that won't make it not so.
Again--I'm not a Bible-thumping evangelical by any stretch. They annoy me as much as anyone else. That doesn't make the hypocrisy/double-standard that we know to exist right. Ignoring it/pretending it doesn't exist doesn't make it OK, either.
Don't look now, but Muslims are a pretty close-knit group, too. As are Jews.Jay wrote:
FEOS, you do understand that a lot of it is backlash against the fanboy Christians that have turned him into the second coming regardless of his actual talent? They don't care if he throws ten interceptions a day, as long as he's in the public eye and preaching, they will cheer him on, and tell everyone else how awesome he is. Evangelicals do that sort of crap with everything. They have their own music, their own books, their own politics, and pretty much flip the bird at the rest of society. Well, the revulsion towards Tebow is what you get in turn.FEOS wrote:
One guy. One instance. Minor kerfuffle. You weren't even sure enough about it to get the guy's name right.
Compared to one guy getting shit tons of grief, repeatedly, from all directions for months on end. All over multiple media outlets.
Yeah. It's exactly the same thing.
Not even the same ballpark. Hell, not even the same fucking sport, and you know it. You're trying to use pedantry to prove a point you know is a loser from the start. Yes, it's uncomfortable to admit to the hypocrisy in our society. You may or may not agree with it. If you've been going along with it, it may make you even more uncomfortable to admit to it. But any degree of intellectual honesty demands it.
The current societal situation in the US makes it OK to mock a devout Christian and would not allow the same mocking of a devout Muslim/Jew/whatever. That just is. Denying that won't make it not so.
Again--I'm not a Bible-thumping evangelical by any stretch. They annoy me as much as anyone else. That doesn't make the hypocrisy/double-standard that we know to exist right. Ignoring it/pretending it doesn't exist doesn't make it OK, either.
It is directed at evangelicals in general. Evangelicals have been annually voted Americans Most Likely To Deserve A Punch In The Throat for going on 250 years now. They're despised around here. Tim Tebow has just become their poster boy and most visible member so he gets the venom directed at him. It's their own fault for the dripping condescension and haughtiness. Fuck em.FEOS wrote:
That would be a fair argument if the ire were directed at evangelicals in general, but it's not. It's directed at Tebow specifically.
And I agree that the evangelicals shouldn't be cheering him on simply because he's "one of theirs". Makes no more sense than the Mormons cheering on Steve Young for the same reason back in the day (and if they did, they were much more discreet about it--I lived in Utah at the time).
http://www.google.com/search?q=tebow+fa … mp;bih=698FEOS wrote:
But does Tebow deserve it? He's not condescending or haughty, from what I've seen.
He's no more "in your face" with his stuff than your average boxer is in a post-fight interview. He takes a knee after a score, just like dozens of other players in the league. He doesn't proselytize. I just don't get the overt hostility to the guy. I understand being annoyed by evangelicals in general...I don't get the hostility towards Tebow specifically.
cpbeleven bravo wrote:
http://www.google.com/search?q=tebow+fa … mp;bih=698FEOS wrote:
But does Tebow deserve it? He's not condescending or haughty, from what I've seen.
He's no more "in your face" with his stuff than your average boxer is in a post-fight interview. He takes a knee after a score, just like dozens of other players in the league. He doesn't proselytize. I just don't get the overt hostility to the guy. I understand being annoyed by evangelicals in general...I don't get the hostility towards Tebow specifically.