BF2S Forums Thinking of joining the military... could really use some advice.

1stSFOD-Delta wrote:

Infantry. It's like COD with awesome graphics.

Except you can't just press shift, you have to actually run.
Forget it.

I spent a week working at a civil engineering firm between my junior and senior year. More just watching then working. Wasn't that stupid make copy shit, I was just an observer. Thats when I realized it wasn't for me. Met a guy there who spent 3 months designing the drainage for the construction site of a elementary school.

I can't stand inefficiency like that. I could never work in that environment. I need to be around stuff being accomplished, I want to feel like I actually did something with my life. Thats why I went the route of owning my own business.

Not sure what to suggest really, every job requires an immense amount of tedious bullshit to get apparently simple things done.
There are processes and procedures to be followed, imposed within organisations and imposed from the outside via standards, regulations, laws and so on.
What may seem like awesome excitement and 'getting shit done' from the outside in reality probably boils down to 100 times more mind-numbing work than is visible from the outside.

Picking some examples, the Apollo astronauts spent about a decade preparing for a few days in the limelight IIRC, the engineers supporting them would have had years and years of writing Failure Mode Effects Analyses, risk assessments, going to meetings, writing minutes, writing written responses to action requests, doing actual calculations and simulations, building prototypes. testing, more testing redesigning etc etc etc.

The guy doing the drains would have had to have read the customer spec, worked with the customer to fix the obvious errors and inconsistencies, read all the local codes on installing drains, resolved all the mismatches, searched out suppliers and installers capable of supplying and installing to specification and had quality management systems in place which were up to date and met that specific customers needs blah blah blah blah blah.

TBH A background doing garden maintenance and site ground work, which must be about the most uncontrolled low management quality work there is, is not helping you understand how the world works - you didn't even have insurance in place for your only assets for example.

The mismatch between how the world is presented on TV and how it really is has some impact on how 'young people' are struggling I think.
The world is not like Mythbusters or Trick My Truck, you're not going to be doing random awesomness just however suits you every day, not right away, probably not ever. Companies won't let you, if you have your own company your insurance won't let you and your customers won't pay for undisciplined fun times.

Join the Army and its 99.99999% certain you're not going to be abseiling out of a helicopter to shoot Bin Laden in the forehead in your first week.
You'll most likely be doing the most tedious shit the whole time.

The sooner you get a match between your perception and reality the sooner you'll be able to setlle down and get on with life.
Not sure on the best way to achieve this, some routes have been discussed already.

/tedious engineer rant

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-12-10 18:21:29)

Jay wrote:

FEOS wrote:

First: take Jay's story with a grain of salt. That's one, bitter, person's perspective--who admits they shouldn't have been there to begin with, and thought they were better than everyone else around them from the start. Not the best way to enter a situation. There are literally millions of stories to contradict his. Personally, I know dozens of enlisted troops who are excellent leaders, who are highly sought after by civilian companies, but choose to stay for personal reasons. The dirtbags are the exception, not the rule. But then again, I'm not in the Army.

You won't get into OCS without a degree. So unless you plan on going to college while enlisted, it's not going to happen.

You seem to have a penchant for business. Maybe those early courses didn't hold your attention because it was stuff you already knew? Well, duh. They were intro classes. You have to stick with a program to get something out of it. Seems like maybe that's your issue: you don't have a lot of "stick to it" in you right now. The military would certainly fix that.

Seeing as you've never been enlisted, fuck off.

Seeing as I was the child of an enlisted man and had to listen to everything he had to say about it my whole life, I won't, thanks. And seeing as how I have ~4x the amount of active duty time you do to draw from, experience wise...I won't. But thanks all the same.

@ Cybargs: I am in the AF.

The enlisted corps in the AF is quite different than in the Army or Marine Corps. Just a different culture. We have very little "make work", and it's usually reserved for non-judicial punishment situations. We expect a lot from even our most junior enlisted, because we invest a lot in their education and training.

As for the accountability stuff people were talking about: it depends on one's position. Commanders are held accountable all the time (see recent rash of Navy commanders getting fired). Command usually starts at the O-5 level, but in the Army and Marines, company command starts at the O-3 level. However, significant levels of command (squadron, battalion, ship, etc) are at O-5. That is where the Services really start assessing higher-level leadership of their officers. They are in a fishbowl, 24/7, for 2 years while in command...as is their senior enlisted advisor.

I guess I gave Dilbert the wrong impression. To clear up a little bit, I did not have my equipment insured (stupid), but I only lost a portion of it. 1 60in ride on ZTR, 1 48in walkbehind, walk behind blower, 21in mower, 8 or so trimmers and blowers, and the trailer. I still have another 30k of carpentry equipment and 15 or so of landscaping stuff at home. Thats probably the only thing thats keeping me sitting here. Lot of money to walk away from. Working on getting someone to buy it or family storage.

I made money by doing the highest quality work, but I agree to an extent. Generally every dumb fuck with a truck tries to become a landscaper and it gives a really bad impression on most people. There are quality operations out there but they are hard to find.



Onto other stuff. Air Force actually sounds like a reasonable idea and I'm going to pursue it for a little bit, see where it takes me, and maybe join. Went through a bunch of different careers and was hoping I might be able to find someone who can give a little bit of feedback on them.

Here is what I'm looking at, in order of what interests me the most, keep in mind this is all enlisted:

1.) Tactical Air Control Party Specialist: Imbeded with ground units, tougher training, depending the route you go I assume you can operate with regular grunts or Special Forces
The course is 26 college credits and you end up graduating with a Information Systems Technology degree (I have no clue if these degrees apply to civilian life

2.) Missile and Space Facilities Maintenance: ICBM silos, CONUS based, Northern Planes (big thing for me), jack of all trades in the silos, high security clearance (difficult to get?)
Degree is Mechanical and Electrical Technology, 31 credits

3.) Combat Controller: Pretty much same as above, more special forces related, so tougher training, hopefully higher quality individuals.
Degree is Airway Science, unknown credits

4.) Base Security Specialist: pretty obvious, I could be some prick of a MP, Criminal Justice, 17 credits

5.) Airborne Battle Management: Flight pay, possibly pretty interesting, credits vary, Air and Space Operations Technology

6.) Aerospace Control and Warning Systems: Radar Operator, can be strategic (think NORAD) or tactical, 9 credits, Air and Space Operations Technology.

7.) Three different MOS's (they still use that term right?) that deal with base construction and/or engineering. Very likely won't go this route but considering opening a heavy equipment earth moving business later in life. Only reason this stuff is here.


As of now its either 1 or 2, the combination of interest in it and the degrees seem to make them the best choices. Really need to talk to a recruiter, figure out whats in demand, whats the pay (not a big deal for me but is a concern), benefits, future demand, job security, etc, etc, etc.

Any 1st or second hand experience with any of those MOS's would be greatly appreciated, along with any advice when talking to a recruiter.

Last edited by Commie Killer (2011-12-11 11:38:12)

Look, only join the military if

1. you really want to.
2. after you've done some extensive research and have a good idea of what it's like.

It's a career path that requires dedication, not something you just do because you couldn't figure out something else to do. Stories from vets are nice and all but they will either say it was the worst time of their lives or say they want to go back in. Just listen to what they have to say, weigh pros & cons and form your own opinion.

Last edited by Shocking (2011-12-11 12:17:07)

Shocking wrote:

Stories from vets are nice and all but they will either say it was the worst time of their lives or say they want to go back in.

Both, depending on the day of the week.

On the plus side, you get to see "the human condition" up close and personal.
Uzique's parents had to pay a ferocious tuition fee for him to read the finest literature on "The Human Condition" - military gets to go see it, live it, endure it, and watch it kill people.

That's also the major downside.

Unforgettable life experiences.
Some of them you may wish you could forget, though.

Reading through the OP.

To do well in the military requires discipline.
Same thing you need for college.

The vast majority of people don't get their "calling" in life, there's no 1000 angels trumpeting "This is your path! This degree is YOU! This profession is your calling!". I like engineering - I've been designing things since I could draw. And I hated college courses in engineering. Mostly failed professional engineers that retreated to teaching, because they couldn't handle the professional world.

A bachelors degree is just a ticket to punch.  Just a thing you have to do to learn to speak the lingo of a profession.  After you graduate, your first professional employer will teach you what you need to know, building on the basics you learned in college.  4 year degree doesn't mean you know a damn thing (look at how vapid and hollow your coursework is), it just means your first professional employer can teach you without having to explain every little basic detail.

If you're just tossing about, then 3 or 4 years of military might be just the thing to get you to focus on what's important to you.

Just don't get blown up, mangled, head-scrambled, dead, or crippled.

rdx-fx wrote:

Reading through the OP.

To do well in the military requires discipline.
Same thing you need for college.

The vast majority of people don't get their "calling" in life, there's no 1000 angels trumpeting "This is your path! This degree is YOU! This profession is your calling!". I like engineering - I've been designing things since I could draw. And I hated college courses in engineering. Mostly failed professional engineers that retreated to teaching, because they couldn't handle the professional world.

A bachelors degree is just a ticket to punch.  Just a thing you have to do to learn to speak the lingo of a profession.  After you graduate, your first professional employer will teach you what you need to know, building on the basics you learned in college.  4 year degree doesn't mean you know a damn thing (look at how vapid and hollow your coursework is), it just means your first professional employer can teach you without having to explain every little basic detail.

If you're just tossing about, then 3 or 4 years of military might be just the thing to get you to focus on what's important to you.

Just don't get blown up, mangled, head-scrambled, dead, or crippled.

I like engineering, I enjoy designing and building things as well, I've done it as a kid, and I just don't know if I would enjoy working at an engineering firm.

I'll probably join, and I'll try not to get myself killed.

NAthANSmitt wrote:

Jay wrote:

Military would be a complete waste of time unless your goal is to be coddled and have all of your decisions made for you for the next four years. You don't need money for college. You don't need a way out of the ghetto. You sure as shit aren't joining for patriotism, so the only thing left is hiding from life. You need a swift kick in the ass, not a four year contract.

Please note: None of those things apply in the Marines.

You will get your ass kicked...

You will not be coddled...

Your pay will be shit...

And you will hate your life.

You do get coddled. The military treats lower enlisted like they are retarded five year olds that aren't potty trained yet.

Commie Killer wrote:

1.) Tactical Air Control Party Specialist: Imbeded with ground units, tougher training, depending the route you go I assume you can operate with regular grunts or Special Forces
The course is 26 college credits and you end up graduating with a Information Systems Technology degree (I have no clue if these degrees apply to civilian life

2.) Missile and Space Facilities Maintenance: ICBM silos, CONUS based, Northern Planes (big thing for me), jack of all trades in the silos, high security clearance (difficult to get?)
Degree is Mechanical and Electrical Technology, 31 credits

3.) Combat Controller: Pretty much same as above, more special forces related, so tougher training, hopefully higher quality individuals.
Degree is Airway Science, unknown credits

4.) Base Security Specialist: pretty obvious, I could be some prick of a MP, Criminal Justice, 17 credits

5.) Airborne Battle Management: Flight pay, possibly pretty interesting, credits vary, Air and Space Operations Technology

6.) Aerospace Control and Warning Systems: Radar Operator, can be strategic (think NORAD) or tactical, 9 credits, Air and Space Operations Technology.

7.) Three different MOS's (they still use that term right?) that deal with base construction and/or engineering. Very likely won't go this route but considering opening a heavy equipment earth moving business later in life. Only reason this stuff is here.

TACPs and Combat Controllers generally run around with ground forces and coordinate any required air power (pick-up, re-supply, close air support, etc).  If you want to be an AF ground-pounder and call in the aircraft, that's the thing to do.

Missile Maintenance--I don't know too much, but expect to be working on rockets, launch systems, silos, etc.  I would expect a high degree of precision and administrative tracking.  Dotting the i's and crossing the t's is a big deal when you talk about a couple hundred kilotons of explosive power on top of a 40ft rocket!

Security forces: mix between gate guard and cop, with base security and some outside the wire stuff overseas.  In the CONUS, it's not a job I would want (new A1C checking IDs at the main gate at 11PM).

ABM--if you want to get into Air Traffic Control, it's probably a good way in.  You get to stare at the green and black screens on an AWACS and try to tell pilots what you can see.

Terminology bit, the AF calls career fields "AFSCs" or Air Force Specialty Codes.  Most others use "MOS."

If you decide to join make sure to be careful so you don't get raped
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2 … shame.html

Macbeth wrote:

If you decide to join make sure to be careful so you don't get raped
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2 … shame.html

For the love of god remember the handkerchief code.

Which of those has potential in the non-military world - what fields would they lead into?