this ’empire’ rose and kept by the help of external power. remove the plug…watch it fall…peasantPoseidon wrote:
Chief.
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
...show me the schematic
You're supporting an invasion of the ME by a small number of fruitcake religious fundamentalist europeans at the expense of the indigenous inhabitants?rdx-fx wrote:
If I had to choose between Israel disappearing or the entire rest of the middle east sinking under 100 feet of sea water,
I'd save Israel.
Why exactly?
They haven't been fighting 'forever', just the last 60 years.cdailey2142]The Israeli and Palestine people have been fighting forever. Why is it the place of the US to get involved.
Feel free to stop your involvement at any time. It would help immensely and you wouldn't get so much 'blowback'.
Fuck Israel
It does seem odd that it was fine and dandy to have Israel imposed on the region by a UN resolution which was opposed by every state in the region - and yet for the Palestinians to do the same when they are supported by every state in the region is unnacceptable and outrageous - they must 'negotiate' with their oppressors.
Racist double standards FTW.
Racist double standards FTW.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-09-23 17:23:59)
Fuck Israel
Different eras.Dilbert_X wrote:
It does seem odd ...
Between 1920 and 1947, the majority of the borders in the middle east were drawn.
There's no way a whole nation would be carved out of existing lands today.
Not even for the Israelis.
Okay, they might do it for the Palestinians.
QFTDilbert_X wrote:
Racist double standards FTW.
Because we get along with the Israelis.Dilbert_X wrote:
You're supporting an invasion of the ME by a small number of fruitcake religious fundamentalist Europeans at the expense of the indigenous inhabitants?
If their favorite fairy tale book tells them they have a religious & genetic heritage in that sandbox, that's their Your thoughts, insights, and musings on this matter intrigue me.
I don't get arguing over that hot, arid, sandy, shitty catbox.
But, apparently the Jews and Muslims do.
- Superior Mind
- (not macbeth)
- +1,755|6950
That hot, arid, sandy, shitty catbox used to be a lush fertile environment. Over farming the land sucked the soil dry.
Ghenkis Khan essentially destroyed the irrigation in the euphrates and tigris river. Jews are turning Israel pretty lush though.Superior Mind wrote:
That hot, arid, sandy, shitty catbox used to be a lush fertile environment. Over farming the land sucked the soil dry.
Except the only reason you get along with them is you have a seat on the UNSC they find you easy to manipulate.rdx-fx wrote:
Because we get along with the Israelis.
Thats the full extent of your 'friendship'. As US power fades you'll find them taking much more interest in China.
Oh hello
You're slowly waking up to the fact tha Pakistanis have been playing you like fiddles (yet you keep shovelling them billions ), eventually you'll achieve the same wrt the Israelis.
And for what? To supposedly 'dominate the ME' when A) You don't and B) It wouldn't make any practical difference if you did or didn't.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-09-24 02:59:01)
Fuck Israel
Thats odd, the jews want a jewish only country, and the US is supporting them in that. If thats unconstitutional I guess you'd better stop.RAIMIUS wrote:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Perhaps you did not notice, but the US doesn't like supporting particular religions. I think your assertion is quite ridiculous, and I bet you know it too.
Its been Palestinian/Arab for the last 2,000 years - apart from the last 60. The Romans have as much claim to it now as the jews do - probably more as they were there last.If you really want to convince yourself that the Levant has only been an issue for 60 years, I pity your sense of history.
Fuck Israel
- Superior Mind
- (not macbeth)
- +1,755|6950
That's like saying the Romans have claim to Greece, Turkey, Britain, Spain, France, Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, and Egypt.Dilbert_X wrote:
The Romans have as much claim to it now as the jews do - probably more as they were there last.
Before the modern nation state of Israel, the Jews hadn't held power for over two-thousand years. I think the right thing to do after the Ottoman Empire was split up would have been to let the locals decide what they wanted to do with their land. Who was living in Israel at that time? Arabs and Jews, no? How about a two party state? One that gives to both sides.
They like to pretend they are so different and incompatible, but they both love hummus. So stop fighting and eat.
Last edited by Superior Mind (2011-09-24 06:39:36)
Dilbert, I've long since come to the conclusion that your blind, absolute, irrational hatred for the Jews makes any attempt at a rational discussion with your on the matter a useless gesture.
Which pretty much describes the Palestinians as well.
Israel exists.
Deal with it.
There was a two state solution, but the Arabs rejected it in favor of war.
Israel's neighbors tried to wipe it off the map.
The Arabs lost both wars.
The Arabs lost more land in the process.
Now that they lost, they want to go back to a two-state solution?
Fuck off, you lost, get over it - or try to take them out again.
Let me reiterate that;
The Arabic states decided not to negotiate in good faith, instead opting for war to eliminate Israel, and take all of the land.
Only when they (repeatedly) lost their military attempts to eliminate Israel, do they want to negotiate.
Negotiate only when you are in a militarily inferior position - sounds like another day in the Middle East...
Which pretty much describes the Palestinians as well.
Israel exists.
Deal with it.
There was a two state solution, but the Arabs rejected it in favor of war.
Israel's neighbors tried to wipe it off the map.
The Arabs lost both wars.
The Arabs lost more land in the process.
Now that they lost, they want to go back to a two-state solution?
Fuck off, you lost, get over it - or try to take them out again.
Let me reiterate that;
The Arabic states decided not to negotiate in good faith, instead opting for war to eliminate Israel, and take all of the land.
Only when they (repeatedly) lost their military attempts to eliminate Israel, do they want to negotiate.
Negotiate only when you are in a militarily inferior position - sounds like another day in the Middle East...
There was never a two state solution, the Palestinians would not be asking for statehood if they already had it.There was a two state solution, but the Arabs rejected it in favor of war.
Why should the arab world 'get over it'?
Hitler invaded Europe fair and square - maybe we should just have 'got over it'.
Its your irrational support for invaders and oppressors which I find weird.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-09-24 07:01:51)
Fuck Israel
- Superior Mind
- (not macbeth)
- +1,755|6950
The dissolution of the Ottoman Empire should have been done by a league of representatives from the all the previously dominated peoples- not by the Allies.
If a new Palestinian state were created I wonder how they would face the issue of getting their people out of international refugee camps and into Palestine. Then how do you convert a ghettoized society/landscape into a functioning state? Then who is to say that there wont be a DMZ between the two nations? Surely both Israel and Palestine would benefit from a more peaceful arrangement of trade and mutual support. But who would want to be peaceful with people who have oppressed you for the past century? And conversely who would want to be peaceful with people who terrorized your people for as long? The way I see it all panning out if Palestine is given state hood: there will be another century of animosity and occasional fighting. But once all of the old generations die out a new era will unfold of perhaps a more calm existence for both.
If a new Palestinian state were created I wonder how they would face the issue of getting their people out of international refugee camps and into Palestine. Then how do you convert a ghettoized society/landscape into a functioning state? Then who is to say that there wont be a DMZ between the two nations? Surely both Israel and Palestine would benefit from a more peaceful arrangement of trade and mutual support. But who would want to be peaceful with people who have oppressed you for the past century? And conversely who would want to be peaceful with people who terrorized your people for as long? The way I see it all panning out if Palestine is given state hood: there will be another century of animosity and occasional fighting. But once all of the old generations die out a new era will unfold of perhaps a more calm existence for both.
Last edited by Superior Mind (2011-09-24 07:04:25)
Nope not gonna happen.Superior Mind wrote:
But once all of the old generations die out a new era will unfold of perhaps a more calm existence for both.
inane little opines
History has proven that only muslims are fit to rule Jerusalem. Deal with itIn 638, when Jerusalem was surrendered to the Muslims, Umar (the first caliph), requested to be led to the Temple Mount, an acknowledgment of Islam’s acceptance of the Hebraic prophetic tradition. After reaching the Temple Mount, the caliph found himself disgusted on seeing that Christians had heaped garbage in the sacred enclosure to express their contempt for the Judaic faith. Umar, out of respect for the Jews, ordered the area to be cleansed, an act which also prepared the sacred Jewish site for Muslim worship. Umar fulfilled the hopes of Jews by refusing the church’s request to continue the ban against Jewish residence and inviting them back into the city. In the seventh century, as Jerusalem came into Muslim hands, the ban on Jewish residence was lifted. After approximately 500 years of being Judenrein, Jerusalem again included a Jewish community. Jews long banned from living in Jerusalem by Christian rulers, were permitted to return, live, and worship in the city of Solomon and David.
More: http://www1.american.edu/ted/hpages/jer … muslim.htm
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
...show me the schematic
What a convenient memory you have.Dilbert_X wrote:
There was never a two state solution, the Palestinians would not be asking for statehood if they already had it.
UN Partition plan for Palestine never existed, eh?
Let me refresh your memory with the general gist of it;
Two states, one Arab, one Jewish.
Jewish representatives accepted the plan.
Arabic representatives rejected it, in favor of war.
Arabic representative wiped their ass with their best chance at a two state solution.
That was their fuckup.
They chose war - they get to deal with the consequences.
And I notice you patently ignore my idea of taking land from Jordan, Syria, and Israel, to form an equitable homeland for the Palestinians.
If it is fair to take land from the Israelis, it's just as fair to take it from their neighbors too.
Arabs rejected the 1947 Partition Plan. Done, gone, over with. Their fuckup.
Now, you want to take land from Israel for Palestine?
On what basis?
Ancestral claims? They have as much claim to part of Syria and Jordan.
1947 Partition Plan? They rejected it in favor of war (that they lost - TWICE).
I'm sure you would've supported Hitler's efforts regarding the Jews...Dilbert_X wrote:
Why should the arab world 'get over it'?
Hitler invaded Europe fair and square - maybe we should just have 'got over it'.
Shall I remind you which particular countries were involved in stopping Hitler's genocide of the Jews?
Shall I remind you which particular countries stopped the "invaders and oppressors" during WW-II?
Shall I remind you which particular countries stopped the invasion and annexation of Kuwait?
How about which nations helped rebuild Germany and Japan after WW-II?
How about which nations got rid of the Iraqi regime that used WMDs on his own (Kurdish) people?
We have a very long history of siding with the underdog, and helping reverse invasion and oppression.
(Admittedly, we unfortunately also have a long history of supporting tin-pot shithead dictators in the short-sighted delusional hope of 'regional stability)
Hmm.Dilbert_X wrote:
Its your irrational support for invaders and oppressors which I find weird.
Arabic nations tried to invade and eliminate Israel twice. (They lost, by the way)
Everyone with half a brain knows that, were the US to cease support for Israel, their neighbors would "Wipe Israel from the map" or "Push Israel into the sea".
They have said just as much. Many times over.
We are helping keep them from being invaded.
Now who has an irrational support for invaders and oppressors?
You all are going to have to talk to the Jews about that one.Beduin wrote:
History has proven that only Muslims are fit to rule Jerusalem. Deal with it
Might I suggest honest, peaceful negotiations?
The whole 'invade and take it by force' paradigm seems to have failed the last couple times.
Personally, I think most of the borders in the Middle East are screwy.
Including Israel and Palestine.
Look at Iraq, for a representative example.
Arbitrary borders, encompassing a volatile mix of Sunni, Shia, and Kurd.
Saddam held it together through fear and brutality.
In an ideal world, it would be nice for each group to find a comfortable border for each of their groups.
Palestine, Kurdistan, Shia Iraq, Sunni Iraq, etc.
A corner for everyone to call their own, then put together an EU-like Arabic League to present a semi-united voice to the world.
Much easier to ignore a people you don't like, if they are on the other side of a border that neither side cares to cross.
Including Israel and Palestine.
Look at Iraq, for a representative example.
Arbitrary borders, encompassing a volatile mix of Sunni, Shia, and Kurd.
Saddam held it together through fear and brutality.
In an ideal world, it would be nice for each group to find a comfortable border for each of their groups.
Palestine, Kurdistan, Shia Iraq, Sunni Iraq, etc.
A corner for everyone to call their own, then put together an EU-like Arabic League to present a semi-united voice to the world.
Much easier to ignore a people you don't like, if they are on the other side of a border that neither side cares to cross.
The US only helps Israel because they are leading your country from the background. And the US helps or is going to liberate a country which one is an interest for someone so then they say "yes Iraqi freedom" or what ever. I bet if Iraq had zero oil Saddam would be still the leader.
Remember Hungary in 1956 October? We stood up against communism and fought for our freedom against the Soviet Union. As far as i know USA is the champion of liberty and freedom. Did they give us a helping hand? No. They only said "keep it up, but we cant help". Hungary has no massive oil or gas fields. Maybe thats why we dont deserved the support or helping hang from US. No financial interests here.
What did Israel gave the US that they got fully support?
Remember Hungary in 1956 October? We stood up against communism and fought for our freedom against the Soviet Union. As far as i know USA is the champion of liberty and freedom. Did they give us a helping hand? No. They only said "keep it up, but we cant help". Hungary has no massive oil or gas fields. Maybe thats why we dont deserved the support or helping hang from US. No financial interests here.
What did Israel gave the US that they got fully support?
The UN set borders in 1947 after some wars Israel gained territory. They also started to deport Palestinians and destroy their homes to settle jews in the newly conquered areas.
What they do to the Palestin people is also a holocaust or a slow genocide. Nobody is saying anything. Where is the liberty, freedom or the right to live for the Palestinians? From their country was Israel made in the modern days.
What they do to the Palestin people is also a holocaust or a slow genocide. Nobody is saying anything. Where is the liberty, freedom or the right to live for the Palestinians? From their country was Israel made in the modern days.
Bullshit.venom6 wrote:
The US only helps Israel because they are leading your country from the background.
It's called supporting your allies, and looking after your own national interests.
The Jewish PACs own their share of Senators and politicians, but they don't own the whole stinking pile of 'em.
Too many fruit loop fundie Christians roaming the halls of D.C.
And exactly how many oil rich countries have we annexed? Zero.venom6 wrote:
I bet if Iraq had zero oil Saddam would be still the leader.
Iraq was handed back to the Iraqi people, as was Kuwait in 1991, as was Germany in 1945, as was Japan in 1945.
And the huge oil reserves we're jealously protecting in Israel are... where, again, exactly?
We have overthrown hostile regimes. Perhaps a few regimes that were simply annoying.
We've never annexed a country for their oil.
Last land we bought was Alaska. Bought
So it is our job to help other nations free themselves from oppression? Okay, cool. We can do that.venom6 wrote:
Remember Hungary in 1956 October? We stood up against communism and fought for our freedom against the Soviet Union. As far as i know USA is the champion of liberty and freedom. Did they give us a helping hand? No. They only said "keep it up, but we cant help". Hungary has no massive oil or gas fields. Maybe thats why we dont deserved the support or helping hang from US. No financial interests here.
We should've probably helped Hungary, yes.
We were rather busy helping West Germany fortify the Fulda Gap, putting deterrent forces in Turkey, and generally investing a shitload of money and military manpower in helping Europe in general. Our allies.
Eventually, the whole of the Soviet Union collapsed under the pressure from the EU and US.
Wasn't in 1956, unfortunately for Hungary.
More like 1989, fortunately for the whole of Europe, and the Eastern Bloc states especially.
Sorry we were a bit late.
We were busy working on the whole puzzle.
Tricky bit of work, doing all of that without starting a nuclear WW-III.
Hope you'll forgive the tardiness.
A place for the Jews to call home.venom6 wrote:
What did Israel gave the US that they got fully support?
A fresh start away from a Europe that had tried to exterminate them.
Would you rather we gave them Berlin instead?
How about Munich?
That would've made Oktoberfest a little ... different.
Edit: Though it was rather sadistic, whoever thought up the brilliant idea of taking the Jews that had survived Hitler's Europe, then shoving them into the exact region of the world that was the only place that hated them more. Yep, 4000 years of bad blood, open warfare, and pure blind hatred enshrined in their respective bibles. 'Yeah! Fucking excellent! Let's build a home there! Fun for the whole fucking family!'
Last edited by rdx-fx (2011-09-24 10:27:58)
Funny how so many people hurl blame at the U.S. while completely overlooking Russia's military activity in recent years, namely Chechnya, Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Its especially lolsome when so many consider the U.S. heavyhanded in their approach, and yet fail to utter a peep about Russia laying waste to entire neighbourhoods with artillery and air strikes, or even their use of cluster munitions. The Russian's don't want its satellite states to function independently, it wants them to do what it says, and if they don't then Russia finds a way to enforce its will.
Genghis Khan had been dead for more than 30 years before the sack of Baghdad. Hulagu Khan did it under orders from whatever Khan there was at the time. /worthless Mongol history knowledgeCybargs wrote:
Ghenkis Khan essentially destroyed the irrigation in the euphrates and tigris river. Jews are turning Israel pretty lush though.Superior Mind wrote:
That hot, arid, sandy, shitty catbox used to be a lush fertile environment. Over farming the land sucked the soil dry.
According to maps I have seen regarding the Crusader states, the Levant has been sandy and dry for awhile.
I agree with Supmind when he said the people in the area should have decided their states after Ottomans were diced. That really is the best way to do those sort of things.
Anyway, I'm no expert on the Israeli-Palestine problem but, correct me if I'm wrong, weren't the Arabs-Muslims the overwhelming majority in the area before the creation of Israel? Didn't most of the Jewish people living there now immigrant from all over the world using funds provided by the state of Israel?
Last edited by Macbeth (2011-09-24 10:52:16)
- Superior Mind
- (not macbeth)
- +1,755|6950
Yeah, a huge number of Israelis are of ex-Soviet decent.
yeah they lost land after trying to invade Israel twice. Good job.venom6 wrote:
The UN set borders in 1947 after some wars Israel gained territory. They also started to deport Palestinians and destroy their homes to settle jews in the newly conquered areas.
What they do to the Palestin people is also a holocaust or a slow genocide. Nobody is saying anything. Where is the liberty, freedom or the right to live for the Palestinians? From their country was Israel made in the modern days.
Incorrect, the proposal was two states, one governed by the Jews, one governed by the Arabs, with the indigenous populations of each having equal rights as citizens.rdx-fx wrote:
What a convenient memory you have.Dilbert_X wrote:
There was never a two state solution, the Palestinians would not be asking for statehood if they already had it.
UN Partition plan for Palestine never existed, eh?
Let me refresh your memory with the general gist of it;
Two states, one Arab, one Jewish.
The Israelis rejected the plan because they wanted a state with only jews in it, and continued their policy of kicking the Palestinians out at the barrel of a gun/tank/suicide donkey bomb. This is what really provoked their neighbours, not least because they didn't want to deal with millions of refugees when the deal was they would stay where they were - a deal the Israelis shat on.
It would be, and potentially may happen down the road. In the meantime the Palestinians would like their land back from the Israelis.And I notice you patently ignore my idea of taking land from Jordan, Syria, and Israel, to form an equitable homeland for the Palestinians.
If it is fair to take land from the Israelis, it's just as fair to take it from their neighbors too.
Again the myth that WW2 was in any way about helping the jews.Shall I remind you which particular countries were involved in stopping Hitler's genocide of the Jews?
Nope, you have a very long history of doing whats in your own self-interest - and provoking or starting wars accordingly.Shall I remind you which particular countries stopped the "invaders and oppressors" during WW-II?
Shall I remind you which particular countries stopped the invasion and annexation of Kuwait?
How about which nations helped rebuild Germany and Japan after WW-II?
How about which nations got rid of the Iraqi regime that used WMDs on his own (Kurdish) people?
We have a very long history of siding with the underdog, and helping reverse invasion and oppression.
(Admittedly, we unfortunately also have a long history of supporting tin-pot shithead dictators in the short-sighted delusional hope of 'regional stability)
You do, repelling invaders and supporting the righteous was your thing you said. The Israelis are the invaders here.Hmm.Dilbert_X wrote:
Its your irrational support for invaders and oppressors which I find weird.
Arabic nations tried to invade and eliminate Israel twice. (They lost, by the way)
Everyone with half a brain knows that, were the US to cease support for Israel, their neighbors would "Wipe Israel from the map" or "Push Israel into the sea".
They have said just as much. Many times over.
We are helping keep them from being invaded.
Now who has an irrational support for invaders and oppressors?
Seems to have worked fine for the Israelis so far. Third time lucky for the Arabs?The whole 'invade and take it by force' paradigm seems to have failed the last couple times.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-09-24 22:13:20)
Fuck Israel