Nice to the person who left me the neg karma. Car insurance and health insurance work the same way, you prepay so that way if anything happens your covered. Now I'm going to go slow for you, people pay small amounts of money for both there called premiums, now many people pay these and the insurers make money unless they have to pay out tons of money and money doesn't come in.
Read the article, enlighten yourself. You said ", but they are learning." Yeah, for over 50 years, and it is much worse medical care than here in the US. We have some of the best doctors in the world over here. Doctors should make a substantial income based on their expertise, not a government salary. Whats the drive for any new Doctors to enter the field?cpt.fass1 wrote:
Darth, paraphrase it don't feel like reading the whole thing. The only people in this country who get free health care now are the Illegals and the poor. Now we all know Canada's system is not the best for health care, but they are learning.
Whats your point cpt.fass1? So if our taxes just "took care" of our medical bills, how much do you think that would cost ever single tax-paying American? Do you think the government should pay my car insurance, and phone bills, too? What about my fiber optic internet connection, or how about my new XBOX 360 system? Now all I need is a new surround system, and Ill be good to go. No thanks, Ill work, and with a little luck accomplish anything and everything I choose to.cpt.fass1 wrote:
Nice to the person who left me the neg karma. Car insurance and health insurance work the same way, you prepay so that way if anything happens your covered. Now I'm going to go slow for you, people pay small amounts of money for both there called premiums, now many people pay these and the insurers make money unless they have to pay out tons of money and money doesn't come in.
Americans, and how I was raised to believe what an American is: You have the God given Right to do anything you want, abide by the law, and pay your taxes. Everything else is optional. Even those things aren't mandatory, just the way I live. I have the freedom to say and believe anything I can make into a concept. I'm not putting you down, its just my responsibility to attain goals and services that I want in my life. No one else has that burden of responsibility. I have a little girl, too, and it's no one else's job , but he mother and mine to take care of her.
So anyways, I wish I could state things much shorter, thanks for playing...
Last edited by (T)eflon(S)hadow (2006-05-17 14:25:05)
You can get private healthcare in Alberta, whats wrong with public? Except waiting 6-7 hrs in a run down waiting room, waiting for sub standard medical care. Hey, you get what you pay for.Erkut.hv wrote:
Why do Canadian's elite go to the US for healthcare.... because Socialized Medicine sucks teh ballsorz.
Well, its not that bad....
Of course we have the best doctors here, because it's here they can make a killing charging whatever they want. As it was said before in this system the doctors run it more like a business then a doctors office.
A. It is not bad to make moneycpt.fass1 wrote:
Of course we have the best doctors here, because it's here they can make a killing charging whatever they want. As it was said before in this system the doctors run it more like a business then a doctors office.
B. I would rather have first rate expensive care than free (which is not really 'free', read the article) substandard care any day of the week.
Last edited by Darth_Fleder (2006-05-17 14:36:57)
If you think like this, where do you stop it? Should food be a right? How about housing?Marconius wrote:
I feel that healthcare should be a right, not a business.
Yes and no one is taking any of your rights away from you. The car insurance is an example of price gougeing that does go on in the medical industry in this country, and it's a scary thing.(T)eflon(S)hadow wrote:
Read the article, enlighten yourself. You said ", but they are learning." Yeah, for over 50 years, and it is much worse medical care than here in the US. We have some of the best doctors in the world over here. Doctors should make a substantial income based on their expertise, not a government salary. Whats the drive for any new Doctors to enter the field?cpt.fass1 wrote:
Darth, paraphrase it don't feel like reading the whole thing. The only people in this country who get free health care now are the Illegals and the poor. Now we all know Canada's system is not the best for health care, but they are learning.Whats your point cpt.fass1? So if our taxes just "took care" of our medical bills, how much do you think that would cost ever single tax-paying American? Do you think the government should pay my car insurance, and phone bills, too? What about my fiber optic internet connection, or how about my new XBOX 360 system? Now all I need is a new surround system, and Ill be good to go. No thanks, Ill work, and with a little luck accomplish anything and everything I choose to.cpt.fass1 wrote:
Nice to the person who left me the neg karma. Car insurance and health insurance work the same way, you prepay so that way if anything happens your covered. Now I'm going to go slow for you, people pay small amounts of money for both there called premiums, now many people pay these and the insurers make money unless they have to pay out tons of money and money doesn't come in.
Americans, and how I was raised to believe what an American is: You have the God given Right to do anything you want, abide by the law, and pay your taxes. Everything else is optional. Even those things aren't mandatory, just the way I live. I have the freedom to say and believe anything I can make into a concept. I'm not putting you down, its just my responsibility to attain goals and services that I want in my life. No one else has that burden of responsibility. I have a little girl, too, and it's no one else's job , but he mother and mine to take care of her.
So anyways, I wish I could state things much shorter, thanks for playing...
I'm not against working at all, never said I was. Do you belive in the Iraq Rebuild?
That's a little off topic.cpt.fass1 wrote:
Do you belive in the Iraq Rebuild?
Food and housing is a right, if you can't provide it for yourself it's provided for you. And if you couldn't provide it for yourself,Chaos81 wrote:
If you think like this, where do you stop it? Should food be a right? How about housing?Marconius wrote:
I feel that healthcare should be a right, not a business.
edit to correct gramer and finish the though I'm still at work so sorry.
Last edited by cpt.fass1 (2006-05-17 15:31:46)
Clarifying: I am not saying any of your proposal takes any rights away, it abolishes the great health care we Do have in this country. Its just my opinion. It would work in a perfect world, where we all drive 55 mph, too.cpt.fass1 wrote:
Yes and no one is taking any of your rights away from you. The car insurance is an example of price gouging that does go on in the medical industry in this country, and it's a scary thing.
I'm not against working at all, never said I was. Do you believe in the Iraq Rebuild?
I'm a US Marine, of course I believe in the citizens of The Republic of Iraq. Why do you ask me?
Did you ever here about any loans we gave to *clears throat*, um let's see: Japan, Germany, France, Italy, The Netherlands, Poland, Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea,---NORTH KOREA TOO---, Somalia, Niger, Ethiopia, Guam, Venezuela, Australia, Great Britain,.... etc, etc. The List goes on my friend. We forgave most of those loans over time, too. So we help out a lot in this world. I was my honor to do so, as well.
I agree with you , that we definitely need some kind of reform and changes with our health care. Something more like what we had in before the Vietnam War. Doctors had little practices, they came to your house, and you paid cash.
Food and Housing is a right? What man? come on, really, I'm not trying to incite anything personally, but why is it anybody's right to just "Have food, or I get a House." That doesn't make any sense. This world and the small part of it---the US---, is not a Cafeteria, that we all just get in line, to get food or a house for that matter, just because. Have you ever read anything about Communism?cpt.fass1 wrote:
Food and housing is a right, if you can provide it for yourself it's provided for you. And if you couldn't provide it for yourself,Chaos81 wrote:
If you think like this, where do you stop it? Should food be a right? How about housing?Marconius wrote:
I feel that health care should be a right, not a business.
Last edited by (T)eflon(S)hadow (2006-05-17 14:56:20)
First man I'm getting alot of haters on this topic. two - karma, I myself am enjoying this discusion. Disagree or not it's making my day go by alot faster.(T)eflon(S)hadow wrote:
Clarifying: I am not saying any of your proposal takes any rights away, it abolishes the great health care we Do have in this country. Its just my opinion. It would work in a perfect world, where we all drive 55 mph, too.cpt.fass1 wrote:
Yes and no one is taking any of your rights away from you. The car insurance is an example of price gouging that does go on in the medical industry in this country, and it's a scary thing.
I'm not against working at all, never said I was. Do you believe in the Iraq Rebuild?
I'm a US Marine, of course I believe in the citizens of The Republic of Iraq. Why do you ask me?
Did you ever here about any loans we gave to *clears throat*, um let's see: Japan, Germany, France, Italy, The Netherlands, Poland, Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea,---NORTH KOREA TOO---, Somalia, Niger, Ethiopia, Guam, Venezuela, Australia, Great Britain,.... etc, etc. The List goes on my friend. We forgave most of those loans over time, too. So we help out a lot in this world. I was my honor to do so, as well.
I agree with you , that we definitely need some kind of reform and changes with our health care. Something more like what we had in before the Vietnam War. Doctors had little practices, they came to your house, and you paid cash.Food and Housing is a right? What man? come on, really, I'm not trying to incite anything personally, but why is it anybody's right to just "Have food, or I get a House." That doesn't make any sense. This world and the small part of it---the US---, is not a Cafeteria, that we all just get in line, to get food or a house for that matter, just because. Have you ever read anything about Communism?cpt.fass1 wrote:
Food and housing is a right, if you can provide it for yourself it's provided for you. And if you couldn't provide it for yourself,Chaos81 wrote:
If you think like this, where do you stop it? Should food be a right? How about housing?
Well I was asking you about Iraq because why would you rebuild a civilation that's not going to pay us back, and forsak your american brother's and sisters. Point is we're off saving the world when the people at home could have it better. It's not our job to police the world, as much as we would like to feel that way it's not a smart move.
And food and housing is a right because if you can't supplie it for yourself the government steps in to help, it's welfare. I know what communism is very well and I'm not a communist. Wanting your tax dollars to go toward something usefull in your own country is not communism at all, it's patrotic.
Last edited by cpt.fass1 (2006-05-17 15:29:08)
We all ready have it. clinton gave it to us !
when ah Geht alected if you have this card yer cover'd ! Golly jee
when ah Geht alected if you have this card yer cover'd ! Golly jee
Well, Canadian healthcare isn't that much different in quality from American healthcare (I'd say except wait times, staff shortages, etc, but I don't know anything about those aspects in the US). It's a serious drain on the system when you've got a ton of people going to the hospital to be successfully diagnosed, again, with a cold or to get a prescription for oxycotin because you have an infection...
It doesn't matter if Canada abolished public healthcare in favor of private healthcare, it isn't like the government would lower taxes, and then we'd just have to pay for it twice for slightly better service (you know what I mean).
On that note our taxes are pretty screwed up anyway, like most other places.
Sorry if I'm drifting off topic and this seems rather incoherent. I've been awake for almost 24 hours straight, and, for some increasingly infuriating reason, still can't fall asleep....good thing I don't need a prescription for sleeping pills
It doesn't matter if Canada abolished public healthcare in favor of private healthcare, it isn't like the government would lower taxes, and then we'd just have to pay for it twice for slightly better service (you know what I mean).
On that note our taxes are pretty screwed up anyway, like most other places.
Sorry if I'm drifting off topic and this seems rather incoherent. I've been awake for almost 24 hours straight, and, for some increasingly infuriating reason, still can't fall asleep....good thing I don't need a prescription for sleeping pills
My main point is that we are not a people who should be sitting back busting our asses to make this country better for them to take our money to save some far off land. Majority of our people are not as well off as the politicians who look at countries like Iraq and want to rebuild it, then go and buy a German car and Japan's lastest TV.
There is a slight problem in this.cpt.fass1 wrote:
Ok well I was talking to a friend of mine the other day and she told me an other really good reason for Universal Health care.
It's one that I never thought of so here goes and I want peoples feed back. She brought up the fact that in other countries where they have universal health care if they sell a car for 10,000 the company makes 10,000 - taxes, and pay for people for the car. Now in the United States when a company sells a car for 10,000 the company makes 10,000 - taxes, pay, and health care for the employess which health care is very expensive in the states so it cuts heavily into the profit.
Meaning American companies have to sell more product to produce more profit, 2 cars sold from Japan might = the profit of 3 cars from the United States. Which is probably one of the main reasons we see our companies doing more and more manufactoring in other countries.
I've always been for Universal Health care and against friviouls lawsuites so hopefully our Government will be able to get it together and come up with a program for this to make us a strong economic presence in the world again.
A car sold in the US for $10,000 would be sold in Denmark for $40,000. Same car, same revenue for the manufacturer. For that $40,000 car, you'll need the gas at $6/Gallon, and every single thing you buy anywhere, ever, including car parts and general maintenance and repairs will be taxed 25%. The negative financial implications of the loss of sales due to high taxes greatly outweighs the implications of corporation-wide medical insurance. Even with universal healthcare, it's against the law to employ people in most positions without some form of employer-side medical insurance here.
Last edited by mikkel (2006-05-18 09:59:50)
I realize you may think I'm new - but I'm actually a reformed "lurker" (since December), I just can't sit idly by anymore while 12 year olds keep making fools out of themselves talking about topics like this... So here it goes...
There are laws in the United States which require hospitals and doctors to provide treatment regardless of one's ability to pay. I believe that most would say that this is generally a good idea. In addition to these laws, the US has medicare and medicaid to ensure old/poor people still receive basic care. Medicaid, and Medicare would be considered (to most) a form of socialized medicine.
If that isn't enough for you, then please ask your self what would a "more" socialized medicine add to our current situation? Even if you agree with the notion that a citizen has a "right" to basic health care - where does that end - elective surgery? Define elective... (breast implants, sex changes, how about a tonsillectomy, or getting your tubes tied)?
Wouldn't it be fair to say that anyone who really wants treatment in the US can get it? No? Go visit Detroit Receiving hospital and take a look at the people receiving treatment in this facility. Less than 40% of the emergency room / urgent care patients you see here will pay a penny (or more) towards the bill. (Interesting side note - Detroit Receiving is one of many hospitals that the USMC use to train their corpsmen in GSW treatment)
One last point for those noobs who feel that medical insurance companies earn Exxon Mobil-like profits... Did you know that Blue Cross Blue Shield is a non-profit company? They are, since 1972 (at least in Michigan). Visit HAP's website and download their annual report... What was their profit margin? Now compare this to a company like Geico... Still think medicine is profitable for anyone other than doctors (and lawyers)? Besides, what does profit have to do with one's perceived right to universal care?
** edited "e" in "Mobil" - spell check added that by mistake **
There are laws in the United States which require hospitals and doctors to provide treatment regardless of one's ability to pay. I believe that most would say that this is generally a good idea. In addition to these laws, the US has medicare and medicaid to ensure old/poor people still receive basic care. Medicaid, and Medicare would be considered (to most) a form of socialized medicine.
If that isn't enough for you, then please ask your self what would a "more" socialized medicine add to our current situation? Even if you agree with the notion that a citizen has a "right" to basic health care - where does that end - elective surgery? Define elective... (breast implants, sex changes, how about a tonsillectomy, or getting your tubes tied)?
Wouldn't it be fair to say that anyone who really wants treatment in the US can get it? No? Go visit Detroit Receiving hospital and take a look at the people receiving treatment in this facility. Less than 40% of the emergency room / urgent care patients you see here will pay a penny (or more) towards the bill. (Interesting side note - Detroit Receiving is one of many hospitals that the USMC use to train their corpsmen in GSW treatment)
One last point for those noobs who feel that medical insurance companies earn Exxon Mobil-like profits... Did you know that Blue Cross Blue Shield is a non-profit company? They are, since 1972 (at least in Michigan). Visit HAP's website and download their annual report... What was their profit margin? Now compare this to a company like Geico... Still think medicine is profitable for anyone other than doctors (and lawyers)? Besides, what does profit have to do with one's perceived right to universal care?
** edited "e" in "Mobil" - spell check added that by mistake **
Last edited by wanderlost (2006-05-18 13:20:14)
Wander go back to lurking, to start a debate with the 12 year old comment like you did just devalues your opinion and voice here. First off this isn't a debate about not being able to get the health care that you need it's a debate about universal health care. The medical world makes a ton of money.
Example of why the universal health care would be benifical, I have health coverage at my job but's it' just two expensive like 300-500 dollars a month that I have to pick up all myself. Now I went to the hospital for a mutated mole on my chest that looked really bad and got a bill for 400 dollars for the guy to tell me he couldn't help. A week later I went to a practice and paid 250 dollar to get it taken off and biopsied(spl I know) now it was more expensive for me to have no care done then not, and that doesn't seem messed up to you?
Example of why the universal health care would be benifical, I have health coverage at my job but's it' just two expensive like 300-500 dollars a month that I have to pick up all myself. Now I went to the hospital for a mutated mole on my chest that looked really bad and got a bill for 400 dollars for the guy to tell me he couldn't help. A week later I went to a practice and paid 250 dollar to get it taken off and biopsied(spl I know) now it was more expensive for me to have no care done then not, and that doesn't seem messed up to you?
Specifically what comment was "12 year old-like"? I hope your mole was benign btw.cpt.fass1 wrote:
Wander go back to lurking, to start a debate with the 12 year old comment like you did just devalues your opinion and voice here.
That sucks that you have to pay so much for health care... I spend a similar amount as well. Have you created an HSA account? It's "pre-tax" money, so the $200-300 per month that you feel is too costly would be reduced to something like 66 - 70% of that amount (or less depending on what state you live in and how many dependents you have).
Note: If you think that a socialized program run by our great Uncle Sam would be so effecient as to cost you less money than you are paying now, you are setting yourself up to be disappointed.
Wanderlost, do not go back to lurking, I do not find your voice to be devalued at all. captfass1, take a look at the demographic in this thread that is running right now and you will note that a large percentage are under eighteen. In fact, 66% are under the age of 25, who do not yet have the experience to understand the ramifications of what sound on the surface like great ideas.
IF you had taken the time to read the article that I posted, many of your questions qould be answered.
I have some questions for you...
1. Why did you go to the hospital first instead of going to your regular doctor?
2. What do you do that you cannot afford the health insurance that your comapny offers?
IF you had taken the time to read the article that I posted, many of your questions qould be answered.
I have some questions for you...
1. Why did you go to the hospital first instead of going to your regular doctor?
2. What do you do that you cannot afford the health insurance that your comapny offers?
Why should my taxes go up so I can pay for someone who lives more dangerously than I? Why can't I spend my money the way I want it? Why the hell do all these hippies want legislation that makes it OK to be lazy?
Because they're hippies.
Because they're hippies.
yes, because any one that shows any inklings of socialism of that sort is one of two things: Young and naive; or a dirty hippy. The only thing you guys are showing by saying these kinds of things is that you are unopen and already have a preconceived notion of what everyone is. Let me guess, Your ideas and ideals are the true way right?
On another note, this seems to be some sort of a trend here in these debate forums - People constantly putting down posters and telling them that their idea won't work. Why not give credit to these people who are simply trying to find a better way to go about doing things. It is a lot easier to just sit back and say, "Nope, won't work, Americans are too lazy." Or, "Nope, won't work, I don't want to pay for it." At least these people are offering some sort of alternative. That is the key here. I know I am ranting a little here, but I am tired of seeing people just post negative comments to people's thoughts.
On another note, this seems to be some sort of a trend here in these debate forums - People constantly putting down posters and telling them that their idea won't work. Why not give credit to these people who are simply trying to find a better way to go about doing things. It is a lot easier to just sit back and say, "Nope, won't work, Americans are too lazy." Or, "Nope, won't work, I don't want to pay for it." At least these people are offering some sort of alternative. That is the key here. I know I am ranting a little here, but I am tired of seeing people just post negative comments to people's thoughts.
Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2006-05-18 13:52:26)
KEN-JENNINGS,
1. These are not NEW ideas.
2. It is easier to promote socialism than it is to be responsible for yourself, it puts your burden onto society.
3. Come up with better alternatives and I'll give all kinds of credit.
1. These are not NEW ideas.
2. It is easier to promote socialism than it is to be responsible for yourself, it puts your burden onto society.
3. Come up with better alternatives and I'll give all kinds of credit.
Ken, I agree people can be too negative... on the other hand, people over-use the whole "socialized" programs theory because (as Darth pointed out), it's easier to place one's own woes unto the backs of everyone else than it is to do something about it.
Example:
If cpt.fass1 doesn't like his health care coverage, he still has alternatives. He can get a HSA (tax deferred) account to reduce his out of pocket health care spending, he could get a new job with more benefits, he could get a less expensive insurance on his own, etc.
Am I the only guy who sees that if we replace our current system with a universal health care system that there is no longer ANY choice? Sure it's free, but what if I don't want it? Do I still pay? Just because it's universal (and even if it saved money) would we be any happier?
One size doesn't fit all...
Example:
If cpt.fass1 doesn't like his health care coverage, he still has alternatives. He can get a HSA (tax deferred) account to reduce his out of pocket health care spending, he could get a new job with more benefits, he could get a less expensive insurance on his own, etc.
Am I the only guy who sees that if we replace our current system with a universal health care system that there is no longer ANY choice? Sure it's free, but what if I don't want it? Do I still pay? Just because it's universal (and even if it saved money) would we be any happier?
One size doesn't fit all...
I never said they were new ideas. Original thought and new ideas are two different thingsDarth_Fleder wrote:
KEN-JENNINGS,
1. These are not NEW ideas.
2. It is easier to promote socialism than it is to be responsible for yourself, it puts your burden onto society.
3. Come up with better alternatives and I'll give all kinds of credit.
It is easier to promote socialism than be responsible? And what are you basing this on? Its easier to be irresponsible than responsible, no doubt, but how does promoting socialism mean I'm not responsible?
This idea is an alternative. I never said it was the best way, but I am sick of people supporting the status quo for no other reason than that it is what we have now. Socialized Healthcare could work. It would take a massive government and public effort, something that would not happen overnight, but it could work. We could have a sort of government health insurance, and a private service both at once. And before you provide the link to the Canadian case study, I read it already. There are good points that it makes, and there are also presuppositions that the author makes about socialized healthcare not relating to the Canadian case study.
EDIT: I pay for my own healthcare. I am not some person who does not have real-life experience in this sort of thing. I don't want to support freeloaders more than anyone else does. However, I believe it should be a right to get basic health coverage for everyone.
Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2006-05-18 14:25:12)
Alright don't go back to lurking I'm not 12 years old, and it was thanks for asking. As far as health care being far more expensive if it was universal doesn't have to be true we are paying for hospitals and other reconstruction costs for a country that doesn't even want the help.wanderlost wrote:
Specifically what comment was "12 year old-like"? I hope your mole was benign btw.cpt.fass1 wrote:
Wander go back to lurking, to start a debate with the 12 year old comment like you did just devalues your opinion and voice here.
That sucks that you have to pay so much for health care... I spend a similar amount as well. Have you created an HSA account? It's "pre-tax" money, so the $200-300 per month that you feel is too costly would be reduced to something like 66 - 70% of that amount (or less depending on what state you live in and how many dependents you have).
Note: If you think that a socialized program run by our great Uncle Sam would be so effecient as to cost you less money than you are paying now, you are setting yourself up to be disappointed.
It is becoming an issue because alot of other countries are going this route and more corperations are moving to those countries because it cuts operation costs. Lower operation costs for companies means more profit more money just to help people out. Majority of the people out their don't pay fully for their health insurance anyway. It's a company cost and if we cut those costs there should be higher saleries for and more of a compitition in the world market.
YOURDAD your taxes pay for a ton of stuff that don't benifit you, you probably don't even see a portain of your taxes back?? So I never said anything about taxes going up at all.
Ok well Darth my girl friend forced me to go to the hospital because she was worried about it, I already had the appointment set up. Don't ask me why she just did...
It's really not that I can't afford it because I make a decent living, but since I'm 29 realitivly healthy with no children I choose not to pay it because it is expensive. Instead I use the money to take care of my debt, so I guess I'm an ass for not having it.
Edit to answer the "12 year old" question.. " realize you may think I'm new - but I'm actually a reformed "lurker" (since December), I just can't sit idly by anymore while 12 year olds keep making fools out of themselves talking about topics like this... So here it goes"
Last edited by cpt.fass1 (2006-05-18 14:40:38)